Phase error: What are audible levels

CGabriel

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I have been reading some threads on another site about different types of clocks to use as a master reference in a digital system. There are some very impressive clocks built by audiophile companies and some that are industrial devices used for time base standards.

There are phase errors that range from -90db to -115db @ 1hz approximately.

My question is to some of the more technical in the group. Have there been any formal or informal studies done of phase error and at what level it is audible? It appears from the anecdotal stories that it is quite audible at even very low levels.

I know that with the limited experience that I have had that a quality master clock can transform a digital system and I have concluded that it seems to be essential to achieving SOTA performance.

Anyone care to comment on your experience or opinion?
 

dallasjustice

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I don't think anyone knows excepts the people that have the gear to measure. Not many do. A local crystal miner Spelunker tells me it DOES matter and measures much lower than the frequency mentioned herein.


I have been reading some threads on another site about different types of clocks to use as a master reference in a digital system. There are some very impressive clocks built by audiophile companies and some that are industrial devices used for time base standards.

There are phase errors that range from -90db to -115db @ 1hz approximately.

My question is to some of the more technical in the group. Have there been any formal or informal studies done of phase error and at what level it is audible? It appears from the anecdotal stories that it is quite audible at even very low levels.

I know that with the limited experience that I have had that a quality master clock can transform a digital system and I have concluded that it seems to be essential to achieving SOTA performance.

Anyone care to comment on your experience or opinion?
 

amirm

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Hi Caelin. Are you asking about absolute phase error? Or phase noise? In other words is the question regarding the clock not being accurate vs have it jitter back and forth.
 

CGabriel

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Hi Caelin. Are you asking about absolute phase error? Or phase noise? In other words is the question regarding the clock not being accurate vs have it jitter back and forth.

I'm not sure but that would be a good way to kick off the conversation. Do you have a good working definition for each? Perhaps we could all learn something new that hasn't been recycled over several years. It does appear to be a very critical parameter in achieving the ultimate levels of digital reproduction.

Personally, I would like to understand this enough to put a relative number to this phase error perhaps as it relates to timing differentials. In other words arrival times and how that would affect relative imaging in a two channel system. The constant shifting of time arrivals could be what we attribute the digital "edginess" that many complain about.
 

GaryProtein

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Can you hear ANYTHING at -90 to -115 dB?

That means with something playing for example at 100 dB, you can hear something in the background that is only 10 dB.

I doubt it.

I used my AudioControl RTA to measure the sound of a wood chipper my gardener was using when he took down a tree. It was 103 dB. No one could hear any conversation at the machine without screaming at each other.
 

dallasjustice

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These aren't "audio frequency" measurements. These are RF measurements. The RF engineers can explain it much better than I can. There are good reasons to measure phase noise at very low frequencies to very low noise floor.

Can you hear ANYTHING at -90 to -115 dB?

That means with something playing for example at 100 dB, you can hear something in the background that is only 10 dB.

I doubt it.

I used my AudioControl RTA to measure the sound of a wood chipper my gardener was using when he took down a tree. It was 103 dB. No one could hear any conversation at the machine without screaming at each other.
 
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dallasjustice

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I don't think "timing errors" expressed by phase clock phase noise necessarily equate with "timing errors" in the acoustic space ("arrival times"). My understanding is that jitter modulates the frequency which can result in a wide variety of jitter spectra in audio frequencies. These are 2 different types of timing errors and shouldn't be compared.

Btw, timing errors in an acoustic space are generally measured in milliseconds and deal with audio frequency not RF.


I'm not sure but that would be a good way to kick off the conversation. Do you have a good working definition for each? Perhaps we could all learn something new that hasn't been recycled over several years. It does appear to be a very critical parameter in achieving the ultimate levels of digital reproduction.

Personally, I would like to understand this enough to put a relative number to this phase error perhaps as it relates to timing differentials. In other words arrival times and how that would affect relative imaging in a two channel system. The constant shifting of time arrivals could be what we attribute the digital "edginess" that many complain about.
 
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amirm

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I'm not sure but that would be a good way to kick off the conversation. Do you have a good working definition for each? Perhaps we could all learn something new that hasn't been recycled over several years. It does appear to be a very critical parameter in achieving the ultimate levels of digital reproduction.
I will explain but I don't think it is the right way to look at the problem as in audio, the terminology is mixed up and don't follow the defined metrics that they are.

Audio as you know has multiple sampling rates. Perhaps less known is that even when a sampling rate is known, such as 44,100 it doesn't mean that is precisely how many samples are per second. You could get 44,099 in one second and 44,0101 in the next. Up to 5% is allowed. In addition, the incoming signal comes with noise and distorted waveforms which one needs to clean up.

The solution to these problems is a Phased Locked Loop or PLL for short. Simply put, there is a programmable oscillator that can be "told" to generate all the frequencies of interest. We start with one frequency and compare the "phase" (shift in time) of our oscillator against the incoming signal. If our frequency is different, we quickly get out of phase/sync. A phase difference detector is used to compare the incoming signal to what we are producing, creating an "error" signal that tells the oscillator what to do to achieve the same frequency as the input.

Here is a block diagram for a PLL:



As you see we have a loop where we continually perform the above analysis and correction. Loops can oscillate just like the feedback you may get from a mic to a speaker. Solution to that is to filter the response prior to the point where it causes oscillation. We can dial down the filter down further to filter out the noise from the incoming signal.

PLLs are used routinely in many circuits outside of audio. The formal characterization then is used in the context of those circuits rather than audio. In that regard, "Phase error" is the average difference between the incoming signal's phase and what we have generated in the PLL. Think of it as average delay. In audio this is not important but in digital circuits, having two circuits being out of phase can matter and result in the circuit doing something different than intended.

Likewise, Phase noise is the noise generated by the PLL variable frequency oscillator. That circuit is not perfect either and it will generate variations of its own. Phase error is measured in dbC/Hz. A simple conversion generates the familiar phase jitter which has units of time (seconds).

As I said at the outset, I don't think any of this is that important in the context of audio where phase error, jitter and phase noise are used almost interchangeably. I prefer to just see all up system jitter. It matters not what its source is. What matters and matters a ton is the spectrum of it.

We care about the spectrum because almost everything we know about psychoacoustics of such distortions is based on frequency domain. A bunch of audio samples jiggling back and forth ever so slightly tell us what is really going on.

The other thing that matters is the incoming signal, in our case music. The impact of variations is proportional to frequency. The faster the signal moves, the more it can be distorted if you jiggle its timing back and forth. For this reason the standard "J-Test" signal is 11 to 12 Khz. So if we have a subwoofer, we wouldn't care about the jitter as its frequencies are so low.

Back to the jitter spectrum, the higher its frequencies, the more damage it can cause. The reason is masking. When we have distortions that are much lower than the signal itself as is the case with audio jitter, the signal itself can mask the jitter distortions. You can't hear a whisper in a rock concert. Same here. But go to a quiet room and you can hear that whisper.

For these reasons, there is no simple answer of "it is audible or not audible." We can say that it is inaudible for vast swath of the population as these distortions are not familiar and hence not something people can easily pick out.

Personally, I would like to understand this enough to put a relative number to this phase error perhaps as it relates to timing differentials. In other words arrival times and how that would affect relative imaging in a two channel system. The constant shifting of time arrivals could be what we attribute the digital "edginess" that many complain about.
As I explained above, single number specs tell us nothing about its audibility.

We can however take a conservative stance and say, what level of jitter is below our single bit of resolution. That is, what level of jitter has the same value as the least significant bit in our audio sample. Assuming the highest frequency of interest is 20 Khz, this gives us a jitter spec of 500 picoseconds (500 trillionth of a second). Jitter specs above this may well be inaudible but require a type of analysis that is beyond what anyone would want to do. It is like putting an I-beam in a structure and be done with it instead of worrying about how thin of a wood framing could do the job.

Achieving 500 psec jitter is not hard and so that is another reason it is a good target to have. You can of course target more stringent values but for me, that is a simple, achievable minimum.
 

CGabriel

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Ok, Amir I am understanding what you are saying. I think it is helpful for us, at least for me, to understand what the actual effects of jitter are. In other words, what is it altering in the analog domain.

I found this article written by Amir in Madrone Digital that explains it quite well actually.
Full article: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/DigitalAudioJitter.html


How Much Jitter is Too Much?
One way we measure the impact of jitter is by making the simplifying assumption of it being a sine wave (it is not many times but let’s go with it). We can then compute how much it needs to be to generate distortion equal to the voltage represented by one bit of our audio sample as described earlier. For CD audio, it would be the amount of jitter that makes 16 bit audio sample equivalent to 15 bits. The idea here is that if we are trying to play 16 bit audio samples we would ideally want our reproduction system to have sufficient transparency to rise up to at least that level of transparency.

Jitter's effect on music is that it modulates all the tones in it. Using mathematics which in the interest of not boring you I won’t go into, we can model sinusoildal jitter as a signal that generates two distortion products, one of which is the sum of the jitter and our source frequency and the other, the difference between the two. Using this model, and the fact that CD music has a response of roughly 20 KHz, we can compute how much jitter it takes to overwhelm a single bit of our 16-bit audio sample. Performing the math, we arrive at the unbelievable fact that jitter amplitude cannot be more than 0.5 nanoseconds! You read that right. If timing variation of the DAC is more than half a billionth of a second you generate enough distortion to swamp one bit of your audio sample. It is not opinion that says that. It is pure mathematics. And this is for the simplest case of jitter, not the more complex but typical scenarios where there are many jitter frequencies and spectrums acting on your your music.

To visualize this obscure explanation in practice, here is a measurement of jitter acting on a single tone as created by the late Julian Dunn which was published in the digital audio measurement handbook of Audio Precision Audio Analyzer:

The 10 KHz tone is our source frequency. The distortion sidebands (smaller peaks on each side) are purely the result of changing the timing clock of the DAC by a sine wave at a frequency of 3 KHz with an amplitude of 5 nanoseconds. This is for a system with 20 bits of resolution and hence, has a noise floor of -120 dB. Jitter distortion of -80db is hugely above that and has reduced the system performance to well under what CD can do at 16 bits (96 dB). So even though 7.6 billionths of a second sounds like a very small value, its impact in distorting our audio signal is quite significant.​

It appears, if you read the threads in some other forums, that even very low levels of jitter or phase noise is audible at least in the context of a high-end digital system as with dCS or equivalent.

It also appears that the spectral density of the noise is more relevant than just the total amount?
 

amirm

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Ok, Amir I am understanding what you are saying. I think it is helpful for us, at least for me, to understand what the actual effects of jitter are. In other words, what is it altering in the analog domain.

I found this article written by Amir in Madrone Digital that explains it quite well actually.
Full article: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/DigitalAudioJitter.html
I hope you know that Amir and I are the same person Caelin :).

It appears, if you read the threads in some other forums, that even very low levels of jitter or phase noise is audible at least in the context of a high-end digital system as with dCS or equivalent.

It also appears that the spectral density of the noise is more relevant than just the total amount?
Definitely yes to your question. As to audibility point, it gets us back to sighted versus not argument. It is abundantly easy to convince oneself that by having better and better clock jitter, the sound keeps getting better. The range of placebo effect, both negative and positive, is much wider than the objective difference. As a minimum, I suggest closing one's eye at running an AB test to see if the differences are there and the amount one thinks.
 

CGabriel

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I hope you know that Amir and I are the same person Caelin :).


Definitely yes to your question. As to audibility point, it gets us back to sighted versus not argument. It is abundantly easy to convince oneself that by having better and better clock jitter, the sound keeps getting better. The range of placebo effect, both negative and positive, is much wider than the objective difference. As a minimum, I suggest closing one's eye at running an AB test to see if the differences are there and the amount one thinks.

Of course I know it was written by you. Just interesting in that when doing search it was one the most relevant that popped up.

RE Objective versus subjective:
Let's stay away from that please. I think the other thread while interesting in the beginning has very little value left. Subjectively speaking of course. ;)

I am having a conversation with Nick at Quartzlock about the requirements for an audio digital system and what he would recommend as a reference clock for same. He is feeding me some good information which I will share soon.
 

LL21

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Caelin,

I must be one of the least tech-knowledgeable guys here, but I have done loads of reading upon on reviews of my Zanden digital. I recall numerous discussions about Yamada San's intense focus on the challenges in digital, and it seems he felt strongly that phase distortion was one of the things that mattered significantly in getting digital to sound right.

I cannot say what kind of phase distortion he was referring to...if I post links to a few reviews, does that help? There were comments/observations, not technical discussions.
 

CGabriel

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Caelin,

I must be one of the least tech-knowledgeable guys here, but I have done loads of reading upon on reviews of my Zanden digital. I recall numerous discussions about Yamada San's intense focus on the challenges in digital, and it seems he felt strongly that phase distortion was one of the things that mattered significantly in getting digital to sound right.

I cannot say what kind of phase distortion he was referring to...if I post links to a few reviews, does that help? There were comments/observations, not technical discussions.

I don't think so since most reviewers will skim the surface of the topic since most readers will not want to go to deep into the technical weeds. Just explaining the need for an external clock (let alone a reference time base) for a digital system is fairly exotic other than the fact that dCS or Bel Canto will say that you can get better sound with one; so you get it, put it in and sure enough it sounds better.

There seems to be a convergence and a consensus that phase error and phase noise is important. Nick wanted to know if we were most interested in phase noise or "actual noise floor". I asked him what he meant by actual noise floor but haven't received a reply yet. I have read that phase noise above 40khz can't inter-modulate the audio band so perhaps I should be asking him for phase noise graphs that show the distribution of the phase noise of each of the reference clocks that they make? Perhaps Amir has an opinion on this?

I any case I am definitely going to explore this more just based on the limited tests that I have already done. It seems that this is a "missing link" in getting SOTA digital sound quality. Some are claiming that they can hear the difference between a rubidium atomic clock and one that is called a BVA OCXO type. We are talking very low levels of phase noise with both but the latter being -10 to -20db superior. And folks who have done informal tests are claiming they hear the difference, some saying profoundly so. So, a BVA OCXO clock Is near the limit of what is possible as a reference time base being used to spec other time bases.

This entire topic would only be for the radical fringe wanting to explore what the limits of digital audio are, and in this case, is jitter reduction beyond what is considered adequate more important than thought?
 

microstrip

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CGabriel,

IMHO there are too many variables in sound quality of DACs and no definitive universal rules can be formulated from auditions using particular DAC implementations in specific systems. The two best sounding digital systems I have listened to were the DCS Vivaldi system and the Metronome Kalista / C8. Completely different approaches and both sounded excellent.
Can we know what is the DAC you are considering?
 

CGabriel

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CGabriel,

IMHO there are too many variables in sound quality of DACs and no definitive universal rules can be formulated from auditions using particular DAC implementations in specific systems. The two best sounding digital systems I have listened to were the DCS Vivaldi system and the Metronome Kalista / C8. Completely different approaches and both sounded excellent.
Can we know what is the DAC you are considering?

While I agree that certain system approaches are better or different than others, that is not my area of interest. Like most of you I have had many DACs and transports including Bel Canto, dCS, EMM Labs, Esoteric, Eletrocompaniet, Audio Research, Lumin et al. So, I am not looking for a DAC or any specific digital system. Moreover, I have noticed that a good separate clock seems to have a similar effect in all the different systems. Perhaps more so than the sometimes subtle differences between DACs or transports.

I would like to better understand how and more specifically why clocks or a time base seem so important in a multi-component digital system.
 

Ken Newton

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My take on the question of the audibility of phase-noise (commonly an sine oscillator metric) or jitter (commonly an digital clock metric) is that there is no set figure of merit which universally applies as an accurate human perceptual metric. Jitter is much like harmonic distortion in that way, in that it manifests as a complex spectrum and isn't usefully captured as a simple figure - seconds for jitter, % for THD.

I'm certain that research has been conducted on the human perceptual threshold of digital audio conversion jitter simply because I have the charted results of one such study located somewhere on my PC. As I recall, the threshold was shown to be well above the level of conversion jitter produced by the great majority of even inexpensive consumer playback gear today. I'm not certain what to make of such research. Perhaps, the complex spectral nature of jitter can be audible at otherwise minuscule levels, or perhaps some other complex interaction is occurring, such as quantization noise floor modulation as some suspect.

P.S. - Domain conversion jitter (variation in the timing of the conversion instants at the A/D or D/A circuit is the only type of jitter of practical concern in digital audio recording or playback. That type of jitter should not be confused with the jitter which concerns digital telecom networks for example, which is an variation in the timing of the determination of whether a bit is a zero or a one. In other words, jitter great enough in magnitude to provoke actual data errors. The jitter magnitude in any correctly functioning CD player or DAC will be far beneath that needed to provoke an actual data error.
 
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