Oligarch audio? bite the hand that feeds you me thinks!

[Elliot G.]

Oligarch Audio Is Not the Same as High-Performance Audio - Future Audiophile Magazine

What is oligarch audio? This is a term coined by Steven Stone and is catching on with those who look at $100,000 gear with a critical eye

futureaudiophile.com

 

[Elliot G.]

So now we have a unhappy "reviewer" throwing everyone under the bus, telling bull shit stories about the man that hired him, and whining about what he and others were involved in creating. I know he isn't very important , which may be a huge understatement, but folks the review process has steered its course into a major storm and now adding this with some of the other editorials about long term loans, heavily discounted special accommodations, prepaid trips, gifts, expensive dinners this article seems to be about the pot calling the kettle black.
Lets now piss on the clients that buy high end audio, the dealers who purchase and sell it and the other portion of the magazine /review industry that praise it.
So what's it going to be boy? to quote the song.
Me, well I am not surprised that the Industry is starting to turn on itself. Maybe a good look in the mirror is required to make some real change.

 

[Carlos269]

Elliot, I wish that I could walk away and pretend that I didn’t see your post and read Steven Stone’s article. I wish that I could close my eyes and turn my back on this thread…….but that’s just not who I am.

I agree with Steven Stone. Any stereo component priced above $100,000.00 USD is about vanity, pride-of-ownership, and in many cases about insecurities.

If you don’t think that one can assemble a world class audio reproduction system for much less than that, let me show you. At a certain threshold, it is no longer about the music, it becomes about something else.

Many may point the finger back at me and point to some of my components and to my overall investment and I would tell them that they are right, there is simply no need for this in the pursuit of musical enjoyment. “The biggest fool of all is the fool that fools himself” and I don’t fool myself, at least I haven’t for a long time now. Cost does not correlate with performance. And that is the key.

People often talk about components’ synergies. I speak of the power of mastering or remastering the source and now the system. Those are things that transcend component costs.

I see it here on what’s best forum all the time, we have a share your system video thread, where not a single Wadax or other Oligarch-grade system owner has step up and shown us what the rest of us are missing out on. The Oligarch-grade systems and components that I have heard have sounded pedestrian to put it politely. I notice how proud everyone here is to come on the forum to post pictures and eloquently pose about how transformative these Oligarch-grade components and systems are but yet no one has demonstrated that they own anything special or distinguishable, for any reason other than cost!

 

[RCanelas]

Can anyone find examples of this type of weird posture from other luxury industries like watches, cars, boats, wine? Having trouble finding parallels, might not be searching in the right places.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, I wish that I could walk away and pretend that I didn’t see your post and read Steven Stone’s article. I wish that I could close my eyes and turn my back on this thread…….but that’s just not who I am.

I agree with Steven Stone. Any stereo component priced above $100,000.00 USD is about vanity, pride-of-ownership, and in many cases about insecurities.

If you don’t think that one can assemble a world class audio reproduction system for much less than that, let me show you. At a certain threshold, it is no longer about the music, it becomes about something else.

Many may point the finger back at me and point to some of my components and to my overall investment and I would tell them that they are right, there is simply no need for this in the pursuit of musical enjoyment. “The biggest fool of all is the fool that fools himself” and I don’t fool myself, at least I haven’t for a long time now. Cost does not correlate with performance. And that is the key.

People often talk about components’ synergies. I speak of the power of mastering or remastering the source and now the system. Those are things that transcend component costs.

I see it here on what’s best forum all the time, we have a share your system video thread, where not a single Wadax or other Oligarch-grade system owner has step up and shown us what the rest of us are missing out on. The Oligarch-grade systems and components that I have heard have sounded pedestrian to put it politely. I notice how proud everyone here is to come on the forum to post pictures and eloquently pose about how transformative these Oligarch-grade components and systems are but yet no one has demonstrated that they own anything special or distinguishable, for any reason other than cost!

its really sad Carlos that you have all this experience and knowledge yet you are a one trick pony with the SOS in every single thread you participate in. I realize that Wadax gets you aroused but that really isn't the point AGAIN! We have all read your agenda over and over and over again. We get it, we have no choice but are you saying that every expensive product is not worth it?
I have offered you the opportunity to listen to or own a WADAX and funny i never heard a word from you. So predictable. The same is true here with Mr. Stone, a reviewer who's time seems to have passed him and left him angry and looking to blame someone.
The review process is badly broken and now it turns on itself. Every single reviewer would give his kidney to have most of these products in their homes on extended loan and serious accommodation yet he wants to crap on exactly what the magazines have created.
Clients can and will buy what they want and most don't give a damn what you or anyone thinks, this includes me. I bought my gear and don't need your approval or opinion on it since you have no clue other than this burning desire to pontificate about what you don't own or know.
So you are saying everything expensive is crap?
Porsche?
Ferrari?
Rolls?
Patek?
Rolex?
Channel?
Fendi?
Prada?
Steinway?
Audemars?
Wilson?
Magico?
Wisdom?
MBL?
D'Agostino?
dCS?
should I go on?
Your point is what?
That only your magical powers to remake the music is required? I want to repaint the Mona Lisa....This IMHO is the proverbial Sack of Crap!
I'm am glad that you don't agree with me that way I know I am right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Carlos269]

its really sad Carlos that you have all this experience and knowledge yet you are a one trick pony with the SOS in every single thread you participate in. I realize that Wadax gets you aroused but that really isn't the point AGAIN! We have all read your agenda over and over and over again. We get it, we have no choice but are you saying that every expensive product is not worth it?
I have offered you the opportunity to listen to or own a WADAX and funny i never heard a word from you. So predictable. The same is true here with Mr. Stone, a reviewer who's time seems to have passed him and left him angry and looking to blame someone.
The review process is badly broken and now it turns on itself. Every single reviewer would give his kidney to have most of these products in their homes on extended loan and serious accommodation yet he wants to crap on exactly what the magazines have created.
Clients can and will buy what they want and most don't give a damn what you or anyone thinks, this includes me. I bought my gear and don't need your approval or opinion on it since you have no clue other than this burning desire to pontificate about what you don't own or know.
So you are saying everything expensive is crap?
Porsche?
Ferrari?
Rolls?
Patek?
Rolex?
Channel?
Fendi?
Prada?
Steinway?
Audemars?
Wilson?
Magico?
Wisdom?
MBL?
D'Agostino?
dCS?
should I go on?
Your point is what?
That only your magical powers to remake the music is required? I want to repaint the Mona Lisa....This IMHO is the proverbial Sack of Crap!
I'm am glad that you don't agree with me that way I know I am right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all I challenged you publicly here and it was I that never heard back from you! Do you need me to dig up the posts?????

I know that you and others on here and everywhere are going to do as you please. I have no delusion that anything will change because of what I say or post here.

I respect Steven Stone for having ethics and convictions. It takes a lot to go against the grain and to not play along with the “system”!

At your age and with your experience, you should know that most of this is bullshit! I know that you have to sell to earn a living but don’t pretend that anything in the “Oligarch audio” arena is priced inline with their inherent value.

In one word, it is about “substance”!

If you think that your stereo system sound better than mine let’s put it on the line. You will not be happy when you hand me the keys to the store.

 

[Elliot G.]

So you at one time " challenged " me to give you a free 250,000 gift which I refused. I then offered you a real opportunity to try a Wadax but you disappeared since that would require to go about this in a real world situation like actually paying for something.
I am not going to gift you anything nor should anyone. Your arrogance is only surpassed by your absurd challenge that isn't a challenge at all.
I never said anywhere that my system is better than yours or anyone else's, I am not 16 years old either. By the way let mwe say this clearly so you get it through your thick skin I DONT CARE about your system! Perhaps we should meet about back and have a fist fight LMAO. Your behaving like a child!
You did not answer my question, of course, since the only thing that you want to do is press your nonsensical agenda over and over and over.
Your so smart that you can change the artists version of the music so that it please you. Perfectly normal behavior LMAO

As usual you made the thread about you and your crap rather than the subject dujour. Its time to put you back on the ignore list with the other 6 or 7 BS artists on this site who ruin it for everyone else.

 

[Carlos269]

So you at one time " challenged " me to give you a free 250,000 gift which I refused. I then offered you a real opportunity to try a Wadax but you disappeared since that would require to go about this in a real world situation like actually paying for something.
I am not going to gift you anything nor should anyone. Your arrogance is only surpassed by your absurd challenge that isn't a challenge at all.
I never said anywhere that my system is better than yours or anyone else's, I am not 16 years old either. By the way let mwe say this clearly so you get it through your thick skin I DONT CARE about your system! Perhaps we should meet about back and have a fist fight LMAO. Your behaving like a child!
You did not answer my question, of course, since the only thing that you want to do is press your nonsensical agenda over and over and over.
Your so smart that you can change the artists version of the music so that it please you. Perfectly normal behavior LMAO

As usual you made the thread about you and your crap rather than the subject dujour. It’s time to put you back on the ignore list with the other 6 or 7 BS artists on this site who ruin it for everyone else.

“Conviction” is something Steven Stone has and you lack. I’m a confident person and do not hesitate to speak my mind. I saw you in the Jay’s Audio Lab video struggling to state what you thought of his system. Why did you dance around with “exciting” and “I would want things different”? Why didn’t you critique what you “want different”? Your true colors showed.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...re: the Stone article, I think this thinking comes along in many contexts, that it is somehow more virtuous to buy cheap stuff, or to not buy expensive stuff.

Of course, the line is always arbitrarily drawn by the commentator. In this case 100K. He writes: most people would agree. That's already BS and a literary device of sorts. And only a "handful" of people could afford a 40K dac. Sez who?

There's probably more than a handful of people reading this thread with 40K dacs.

It's all arbitrary. Skipping indoor plumbing to crap in an outhouse doesn't get you closer to god. Or not using zippers, only buttons.

What anything is worth is what anyone will pay for it. And who cares? Mostly people who want, but can't afford it, in my experience. Otherwise, why care? You're actually not saving the world by enlightening the unwashed, IMO.

 

[Kingrex]

I think the majority of audiophiles I have personally met who own high $$$ gear bought it because its supposed to sound good. We are told by reviewers, forum posters and audio salemen that these high $$$ pieces are worth every penny. And people with money listen and purchase it. And those systems I have heard do sound good. Non I have heard suck. If I had the $$$$ and built a room that could support a large audio system, I would probably do it. Why not. I don't want to die with cash in my pocket. What else should I do with it. Buy more houses. Buy 100 Ford Fiesta. Give it to someone. How about I just spend it.
FWIW, non of the people I have meet and systems I have heard are owned by anyone close to Oligarch wealth. Maybe one was worth maybe 100 million. The rest are hard working Doctors, lawyers, scientist. People who earned a living and are spending real money that impacts their savings.

 

[JackD201]

FWIW, non of the people I have meet and systems I have heard are owned by anyone close to Oligarch wealth. Maybe one was worth maybe 100 million. The rest are hard working Doctors, lawyers, scientist. People who earned a living and are spending real money that impacts their savings.

That pretty much describes our client base too. For the super wealthy, crazy audio prices are still too low to constitute any kind of "flex" LOL

Have you heard my "XYZs"?

Nope, but I have Void Acoustics on my 300ft Yacht, JBL on my 40ft Tender. Come to think of it I need some speakers on all of my Gulfstreams. Does XYZ make airplane speakers?

My point of view is, if all you want to do is flex, this is not the hobby to do it. LOL

 

[Lee]

I think the majority of audiophiles I have personally met who own high $$$ gear bought it because its supposed to sound good. We are told by reviewers, forum posters and audio salemen that these high $$$ pieces are worth every penny. And people with money listen and purchase it. And those systems I have heard do sound good. Non I have heard suck. If I had the $$$$ and built a room that could support a large audio system, I would probably do it. Why not. I don't want to die with cash in my pocket. What else should I do with it. Buy more houses. Buy 100 Ford Fiesta. Give it to someone. How about I just spend it.
FWIW, non of the people I have meet and systems I have heard are owned by anyone close to Oligarch wealth. Maybe one was worth maybe 100 million. The rest are hard working Doctors, lawyers, scientist. People who earned a living and are spending real money that impacts their savings.

Well said.

 

[MJR]

Not sure I'd take anyone seriously who spent nearly $10000 on cables for $25000 worth of gear?

 

[RCottin]

Oligarch Audio Is Not the Same as High-Performance Audio - Future Audiophile Magazine

What is oligarch audio? This is a term coined by Steven Stone and is catching on with those who look at $100,000 gear with a critical eye

futureaudiophile.com

After reading the this article, the only phrase that his publisher should have made is “illiterate aggression”. Before taking such pedantic position, it would have been wise to research the meaning of the words properly. Since ancient Greek times to today, oligarch have a social and political connotation a lot more relevant than monetary. My guess is that he refers to the “oligarchs” he sees in gossip pages. To stigmatize a diverse group of people with a pejorative connotation just because he disagrees with their choices, is just wrong and ignorant

 

[Carlos269]

After reading the this article, the only phrase that his publisher should have made is “illiterate aggression”. Before taking such pedantic position, it would have been wise to research the meaning of the words properly. Since ancient Greek times to today, oligarch have a social and political connotation a lot more relevant than monetary. My guess is that he refers to the “oligarchs” he sees in gossip pages. To stigmatize a diverse group of people with a pejorative connotation just because he disagrees with their choices, is just wrong and ignorant

Whether he is literally accurate or not, you seem to have missed his point: that these extravagantly priced components are more for “show” than of substance.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Any stereo component priced above $100,000.00 USD is about vanity, pride-of-ownership, and in many cases about insecurities.

US$100,000 is an arbitrary, and, therefore, kind of stupid threshold. I am far from the cable "denier." I think cables are fixed parametric equalizers (credit to Phil Ressler) and they make our systems sound different. But I choose to spend relatively little money on cables.

The Gryphon Pendragons six years ago cost US$160,000. That is almost as much as my beloved Bellini cost in 2001. Yet, for me, it is the best loudspeaker in the world that I have heard. And in today's terms $160,000 barely gets you a Wilson Audio Alexx V. This may sound ridiculous to you, and I totally respect you if it does, but I actually think the Pendragons were a relatively decent value.

And there's no "status" in Pendragons, because almost nobody even knows what the hell they are, and nobody knew what they were when I auditioned them. And nobody knew what they were when I ordered them. They are very far from a status symbol, very far from a Veblen good, such as a well-known Ferrari.

I found very little of value or substance in Steven Stone's article. Mostly I found capricious envy.

 

[bonzo75]

The Gryphon Pendragons six years ago cost US$160,000. That is almost as much as my beloved Bellini cost in 2001. Yet, for me, it is the best loudspeaker in the world that I have heard. And in today's terms $160,000 barely gets you a Wilson Audio Alexx V. This may sound ridiculous to you, and I totally respect you if it does, but I actually think the Pendragons were a relatively decent value.

And there's no "status" in Pendragons, because almost nobody even knows what the hell they are, and nobody knew what they were when I auditioned them. And nobody knew what they were when I ordered them. They are very far from a status symbol, very far from a Veblen good, such as a well-known Ferrari.

I would disagree. There is status in finding a cool 160k loudspeaker others haven't heard and in being recognised as having gone all out for a speaker vs buying a 20k or 40k one.

Btw, 160k does sound completely ridiculous to me. My main observation in audio is that after a point you just don't get any upside on sonics, often downside as things get more complicated. This point might be different from TTs, carts, dacs, speakers, etc, and for overall system, but this pushing of price to signal quality is just ridiculous in audio. It is just an NLF because it does happen to a certain point, so we extrapolate the line further. As I said, I find the upside in HT, and if I had the money, would pay up more for records and have back up copies too, hunt down master tapes, (yes, I know you did some of this and I respect that), but there is just no further value in audio gear. Those with more money should then set up different rooms for different system/music approaches instead of just spending more on one hoping to get additional delta. The sonic upswing in a system will come more because of changing some weak link instead of spending more on the same thing, and that experimentation might require budget rather than exhausting it on one component.

Or find a good bespoke one off speaker, and give the guy how much he wants for it. That could cost a lot, but not have a retail tag

With food I do find some very expensive restaurants to have high value.

 

[Carlos269]

US$100,000 is an arbitrary, and, therefore, kind of stupid threshold. I am far from the cable "denier." I think cables are fixed parametric equalizers (credit to Phil Ressler) and they make our systems sound different. But I choose to spend relatively little money on cables.

The Gryphon Pendragons six years ago cost US$160,000. That is almost as much as my beloved Bellini cost in 2001. Yet, for me, it is the best loudspeaker in the world that I have heard. And in today's terms $160,000 barely gets you a Wilson Audio Alexx V. This may sound ridiculous to you, and I totally respect you if it does, but I actually think the Pendragons were a relatively decent value.

And there's no "status" in Pendragons, because almost nobody even knows what the hell they are, and nobody knew what they were when I auditioned them. And nobody knew what they were when I ordered them. They are very far from a status symbol, very far from a Veblen good, such as a well-known Ferrari.

I found very little of value or substance in Steven Stone's article. Mostly I found capricious envy.

$100,000 was the author’s threshold and that is why that amount was carried over for the discussion.

My Wisdom Audio Adrenaline Rush speakers were $180,000 as configured. They are the most capable speakers that I have ever heard, but even so I have augmented them at both extremes with the Wilson Audio WAMM Series VII subwoofer towers and the Acapella Audio ION TW-1S plasma super-tweeters, not currently in use with this system. All together this speaker system retailed for around $280K.

My Loth-X Polaris augmented by my TBI Emperor subwoofers and Acapella Audio ION TW-1S plasma super-tweeters speaker system retailed for around $40k.

At one seventh the cost, I venture to say that 8 out of 10 would take the Loth-X speaker system based on sound.

That’s the take away here.

Sure the big system is definitely more grand and majestic. To use boxing terminology, sure the heavyweight fights and heavyweight champion got all the glamour and fanfare but true boxing aficionados are more interested in who is the “pound for pound” best boxer.

It isn’t about a “best value” or cost/value proposition as many here mistakenly interpret it, but rather about what is best “regardless of costs”. If these astronomically priced “Uber” components are worth their cost and are clearly superior then let’s hear them. Who is going to step up and demonstrate the superiority of these “oligarch” level components?

In case that you are wondering, so how do I get my WAAR system to compete with my Loth-X system……….This is what motivated me to implement the Remastering process on the WAAR system.

By the way, I don’t think Steven Stone is envious of not being able to own the “oligarch” level components, I think that he knows better, in that they are not required for musical enjoyment.

 

[adrianywu]

$100,000 was the author’s threshold and that is why that amount was carried over for the discussion.

My Wisdom Audio Adrenaline Rush speakers were $180,000 as configured. They are the most capable speakers that I have ever heard, but even so I have augmented them at both extremes with the Wilson Audio WAMM Series VII subwoofer towers and the Acapella Audio ION TW-1S plasma super-tweeters, not currently in use with this system. All together this speaker system retailed for around $280K.

My Loth-X Polaris augmented by my TBI Emperor subwoofers and Acapella Audio ION TW-1S plasma super-tweeters speaker system retailed for around $40k.

At one seventh the cost, I venture to say that 8 out of 10 would take the Loth-X speaker system based on sound.

That’s the take away here.

Sure the big system is definitely more grand and majestic. To use boxing terminology, sure the heavyweight fights and heavyweight champion got all the glamour and fanfare but true boxing aficionados are more interested in who is the “pound for pound” best boxer.

It isn’t about a “best value” or cost/value proposition as many here mistakenly interpret it, but rather about what is best “regardless of costs”. If these astronomically priced “Uber” components are worth their cost and are clearly superior then let’s hear them. Who is going to step up and demonstrate the superiority of these “oligarch” level components?

In case that you are wondering, so how do I get my WAAR system to compete with my Loth-X system……….This is what motivated me to implement the Remastering process on the WAAR system.

By the way, I don’t think Steven Stone is envious of not being able to own the “oligarch” level components, I think that he knows better, in that they are not required for musical enjoyment.

Loudspeakers is one area where such price tags might be justified. The development cost of loudspeakers is necessarily higher than electronics given the need to build prototypes for testing, since it is almost impossible to predict how a design will turn out by calculations. On the other hand, the cost of developing amplification, DACs etc. is much less since the cost of building circuits is minuscule compared to loudspeaker drivers and enclosures. If one takes well-designed but reasonably priced amplifiers from say Parasound or Bryston, and compare them to some of these "oligarch" class amplifiers of similar power that cost 10 times as much or more, I doubt there would be a consistent preference on blind testing by a group of audiophiles. As for turntables, while engineering tolerance, isolation etc. do tend to improve with price, it gets to a certain point when the quality of LPs becomes a limiting factor. Even a $200K record player cannot eliminate compression, eccentricity of the spindle hole (except perhaps the Nakamichi), end of side distortion, noisy vinyl and other manufacturing imperfections. As for DACs, I have not listened to the Wadax on my system, but my new PS Audio Directstream MkII playing back my own DSD transfers from master tapes has reached a level where it is difficult to hear any difference between the analogue original and the file most of the time. Maybe the Wadax will make the DSD files sound better than the master tapes they came from, which will indeed be a miracle.

 

[bonzo75]

Loudspeakers is one area where such price tags might be justified. The development cost of loudspeakers is necessarily higher than electronics given the need to build prototypes for testing, since it is almost impossible to predict how a design will turn out by calculations. On the other hand, the cost of developing amplification, DACs etc. is much less since the cost of building circuits is minuscule compared to loudspeaker drivers and enclosures. If one takes well-designed but reasonably priced amplifiers from say Parasound or Bryston, and compare them to some of these "oligarch" class amplifiers of similar power that cost 10 times as much or more, I doubt there would be a consistent preference on blind testing by a group of audiophiles. As for turntables, while engineering tolerance, isolation etc. do tend to improve with price, it gets to a certain point when the quality of LPs becomes a limiting factor. Even a $200K record player cannot eliminate compression, eccentricity of the spindle hole (except perhaps the Nakamichi), end of side distortion, noisy vinyl and other manufacturing imperfections. As for DACs, I have not listened to the Wadax on my system, but my new PS Audio Directstream MkII playing back my own DSD transfers from master tapes has reached a level where it is difficult to hear any difference between the analogue original and the file most of the time. Maybe the Wadax will make the DSD files sound better than the master tapes they came from, which will indeed be a miracle.

It's very easy to hear the difference between Parasound, Bryston, and some of the expensive SS amps. That aside, whether you want SS, SETs, or OTLs, such preferences drive the cost difference more to get quality. For example, I think the best SS amps are expensive. But with SEts, you can get great stuff at much better prices. Generally, if you are in the SS approach, your system will end up costing more if you want the best sound.