I just think amp matching to speakers is much more complex. I am not an "oh this amp is so good I will let it on my speaker". There are some powered SETs which do better on cone/planar type of speakers. Some might do better on horns but these might not compete with the NAT/KR/Lampi type of sets, and vice versa. Push Pull has some advantages over the SETs for cones. On Apogees or Wilsons I would still prefer Dagostino types over any SETs or PPs or OTLs, though I would like to try Berning Quads on the Wilsons. I have no idea about the Pendragons. I just think Ron is trying to make things too black and white here. But overall, if speaker could be easily adjusted to the amp it drives in a dream scenario, I would rate my preference as OTL first, followed by SET, followed by push pull except for some SOTA SS
Nat Audio - giant killers?
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
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I just think amp matching to speakers is much more complex. I am not an "oh this amp is so good I will let it on my speaker". There are some powered SETs which do better on cone/planar type of speakers. Some might do better on horns but these might not compete with the NAT/KR/Lampi type of sets, and vice versa. Push Pull has some advantages over the SETs for cones. On Apogees or Wilsons I would still prefer Dagostino types over any SETs or PPs or OTLs, though I would like to try Berning Quads on the Wilsons. I have no idea about the Pendragons. I just think Ron is trying to make things too black and white here. But overall, if speaker could be easily adjusted to the amp it drives in a dream scenario, I would rate my preference as OTL first, followed by SET, followed by push pull except for some SOTA SS
I am assuming that the pendragon ribbon has a very flat and likely around 4 ohm impedance. If that is true, most OTLs will only make half the power of 8 ohms into 4 ohms...something to keep in mind.
As to SETs, NAT had a dodgy reputation for amp quality, which may have improved in recent generations. I know that NAT usually delivers the power they quote though. Sonically, I would also consider Aries Cerat Concero 65 monos, which have more of an OTL clarity with SET attributes like flow and coherence. The big Ayon Titan would be another to consider since I think the "small" Crossfire is very good as were the Vulcan Evos I reviewed.
NAT, KR, AC Ayon all should work well on your ribbons.
I would recommend adding the VIVA Audio monoblocks to the audition list. I recently heard their 845 Egoista headamp via HE1000 v2 planar phones and it was fabulous, much better than the more linear sounding 2A3 model. These could be a good match for Ribbon speakers.
Thank you, gentlemen!
The impedance of the ribbon panel is 6 ohms.
I love the Viva Audio Auroras very much. There is no harm in trying anything, but I am willing to bet that nothing in the 30, 40, 50 watt range is going to work. Sure -- sound will come out of the speakers, but I believe in not under-driving ribbon and electrostatic drivers. (There is a reason I have MB-750s.
)
I think the seemingly "excess" amplifier power affords a system an "ease" which is one of the attributes I will be trying to achieve.
KR: I know they sound great but -- purely personal and idealogical preference here -- I do not want any transistors on the ribbons. (If someone brings over a transistor or hybrid amp and I love it I happily will eat these words.)
Marc, A.J. Conti had big Wavacs (833s, I think) and he told me he found them to be less reliable than the Magmas.
If we are talking any Class AB push-pull tube amps I am happy with the VTLs.
Kedar, I don't think shying away from 30, 40, 50 watt amps on the ribbon panels is being "black and white." Not being open to transistor amps is being black and white.
If I never try another amp I know I am happy with the VTLs. But if I could keep the high power of the VTLs (or at least 150 watts or so) yet add the crystalline transparency of OTL (without tilting the sound toward leanness), or keep the high power but achieve greater liquidity in the midrange (SET) then I am willing to experiment.
So that is why I remain most curious to try the NAT Magmas, but why I also remain open to finding a high power OTL which does not replace the "muddy" midrange of my VTLs (See Kedar, microstrip) with a leanness which may be perfectly accurate and neutral but which is not the sound I want.
The impedance of the ribbon panel is 6 ohms.
I love the Viva Audio Auroras very much. There is no harm in trying anything, but I am willing to bet that nothing in the 30, 40, 50 watt range is going to work. Sure -- sound will come out of the speakers, but I believe in not under-driving ribbon and electrostatic drivers. (There is a reason I have MB-750s.
)I think the seemingly "excess" amplifier power affords a system an "ease" which is one of the attributes I will be trying to achieve.
KR: I know they sound great but -- purely personal and idealogical preference here -- I do not want any transistors on the ribbons. (If someone brings over a transistor or hybrid amp and I love it I happily will eat these words.)
Marc, A.J. Conti had big Wavacs (833s, I think) and he told me he found them to be less reliable than the Magmas.
If we are talking any Class AB push-pull tube amps I am happy with the VTLs.
Kedar, I don't think shying away from 30, 40, 50 watt amps on the ribbon panels is being "black and white." Not being open to transistor amps is being black and white.
If I never try another amp I know I am happy with the VTLs. But if I could keep the high power of the VTLs (or at least 150 watts or so) yet add the crystalline transparency of OTL (without tilting the sound toward leanness), or keep the high power but achieve greater liquidity in the midrange (SET) then I am willing to experiment.
So that is why I remain most curious to try the NAT Magmas, but why I also remain open to finding a high power OTL which does not replace the "muddy" midrange of my VTLs (See Kedar, microstrip) with a leanness which may be perfectly accurate and neutral but which is not the sound I want.
Aren't you practising the same "black and white" dogmatic approach you are concerned I am practising?
When Danny Kaey brings his Einsteins over to the Pendragons all of these mysteries will be solved!
When Danny Kaey brings his Einsteins over to the Pendragons all of these mysteries will be solved!
very interesting! When will this be?
When Danny Kaey brings his Einsteins over to the Pendragons all of these mysteries will be solved!
Are you referring to the Einstein Silver Bullet OTLs..arent they in the 50-watt/channel category which you were focused on substantially exceeding (effortless, endless available power)? Will be interesting to see if their power satisfies when they are paired together!
Aren't you practising the same "black and white" dogmatic approach you are concerned I am practising?
I did listen to two NAT apogee systems and SS apogee systems.
Out of curiosity....Is anyone in possession of the impedance measurement of the Pendragon ribbons at 20KHz ? My point being that as an example ML CLX's are rated at a nominal 6 Ohms however drop to 0.7 Ohms @ 20KHz, an important point to factor in whilst considering potential candidate Valve topology amplification.
It will take about nine more months for the repairs to be finished on the house, then give me 6 to 12 months to dial-in the system, so I would say sometime in 2019.
Yes, LL21. I am confident they will not be enough power, but I would love to hear how they sound on the ribbons. Audiocrack drives his Genesis panels with only 40 or 50 watts, though.
+1
But audiocrack is so enthralled with the Tidal system that the Genesis system may have fallen into disuse.
+1
But audiocrack is so enthralled with the Tidal system that the Genesis system may have fallen into disuse.
Well, that can only be a great thing...if he has found something even better!!!
Good evening. I'm new to the site but I've been into audio for more than 40 years. I thought this was the best place to ask a question about my NAT Magnetic.
I got the preamp about a month to replace a PS Audio BHK. I like the NAT better but thought I could use a cable upgrade. I'm runnin Duelund wire XLRs from my PS Audio DSD to the NAT and Audioquest Columbia XLRs from the NAT to my PS Audio BHK amp. Not that it matters for my question but my speakers are Wilson Duettes.
Anyway, I purchased a pair of KLEE Acoustics TruBalance Interconnect XLRs that arrived today. I swapped those out for the Duelunds and switched the system back on. Hmmm. More like hummmmm and volume 6db lower than with the Duelunds. Put the Duelunds back in, everything's back to normal. I called the dealer who was really cool about it. Suggested I put the Duelunds back and swap the Klee for the Audioquests(running NAT to Amp). I was feeling lazy but plugged the Klees into OUT2 of the NAT, disconnected the Audioquests from the amp and plugged in the Klee there. Still low volume issue and hum. Put back the Audioquests (NAT to amp). Low volume still exists, same for hum. Weird I think. Until I remember Klee cables still plugged into OUT2 of the NAT (though not plugged into anything on other end). Unplug the Klees from OUT2 of the NAT. Volume back to normal, hum gone. Plug the Klees back into OUT2 (unconnected at amp end). Hum and lower volume issue return.
Either a) something is seriously wrong with the Klee cables (left & right) which I doubt (as does dealer) or something about the Klee really upsets the NAT. Almost like the NAT is shorting out though obviously not fully. Dealer has been a prince and offered to take the KLEES back but I'm curious if anyone that has a lot more knowledge of the NAT stuff than I do has any idea what's going on.
Thanks in advance.
I got the preamp about a month to replace a PS Audio BHK. I like the NAT better but thought I could use a cable upgrade. I'm runnin Duelund wire XLRs from my PS Audio DSD to the NAT and Audioquest Columbia XLRs from the NAT to my PS Audio BHK amp. Not that it matters for my question but my speakers are Wilson Duettes.
Anyway, I purchased a pair of KLEE Acoustics TruBalance Interconnect XLRs that arrived today. I swapped those out for the Duelunds and switched the system back on. Hmmm. More like hummmmm and volume 6db lower than with the Duelunds. Put the Duelunds back in, everything's back to normal. I called the dealer who was really cool about it. Suggested I put the Duelunds back and swap the Klee for the Audioquests(running NAT to Amp). I was feeling lazy but plugged the Klees into OUT2 of the NAT, disconnected the Audioquests from the amp and plugged in the Klee there. Still low volume issue and hum. Put back the Audioquests (NAT to amp). Low volume still exists, same for hum. Weird I think. Until I remember Klee cables still plugged into OUT2 of the NAT (though not plugged into anything on other end). Unplug the Klees from OUT2 of the NAT. Volume back to normal, hum gone. Plug the Klees back into OUT2 (unconnected at amp end). Hum and lower volume issue return.
Either a) something is seriously wrong with the Klee cables (left & right) which I doubt (as does dealer) or something about the Klee really upsets the NAT. Almost like the NAT is shorting out though obviously not fully. Dealer has been a prince and offered to take the KLEES back but I'm curious if anyone that has a lot more knowledge of the NAT stuff than I do has any idea what's going on.
Thanks in advance.
Hiya, I’m not sure I can answer your q, but some perspective on Nat as a brand.
I’ve been running the (now discontinued) Utopia pre and SE2SE 211 monoblocks for going on 3 years.
They are truly stellar, but characterful and highly wilful.
By that I mean they often conspire to sound less than optimal, and really respond to the right ancillaries.
I have tried a handful of makes of interconnects and power cords on them, and supports, and they certainly tell you in no uncertain terms which are preferred.
I’ve been running the (now discontinued) Utopia pre and SE2SE 211 monoblocks for going on 3 years.
They are truly stellar, but characterful and highly wilful.
By that I mean they often conspire to sound less than optimal, and really respond to the right ancillaries.
I have tried a handful of makes of interconnects and power cords on them, and supports, and they certainly tell you in no uncertain terms which are preferred.
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