Munich HighEnd 2024

[Carlos269]

Unfortunately, many systems sound too polite.

I think we both said the same thing, I just used more descriptive language. Like you, I like for my systems to sound raw, specially for the type of music that I listen to. I want to hear texture, not just in the bass, but also in the treble.

 

[Amir]

What a complete let down. Not impressed at all and ugly to boot.

Agree you
The room was small
The sound was not good
The bass was awful

 

[Amir]

I had heard so much about Aries Cerat, so had to check them out the first time I came across them. My first impressions, what a pile of big dogs do do. The room was very busy on Saturday, could not really get the correct position to get a good sound. Did not stay in the room long as there are far more interesting systems to listen to.

I thought I’ll give the system a second try. I had a similar impression on my first listen to Techdas Air Force Zero, on second listen the following day it sounded much better. They had corrected the errors of the previous day.

I went back to Aries Cerat’s room on Sunday, fewer people around and I could get to sit in a better position, I can now say it’s no longer “a pile of big dogs do do” it’s now a pile of small dogs do do. What a waste of my time I could have spent elsewhere.

Another system, equally as big and as ridiculous; the ESD Acoustic – Super Dragon in the room above sounded much better.

View attachment 130959

My experience shows judging a speaker or amplifier or … is not easy in show condition, I am sure in right condition the AC horns will be better.

 

[marty]

Brad, please. "For certain" in a subjective hobby?

If you are telling people essentially that they are wrong to disagree with your view of the sound of an Aries Cerat system, and if they do disagree with you then they don't know what they're hearing, I think it's especially incumbent upon you to let people know that you are an Aries Cerat distributor.

PS: Challenging Marty, of all people, on his live music references, is an unfruitful path. He has a piano in the back of his listening room, and he attends live concerts regularly.

Ron, it really doesn't matter what I think. Brad liked it, I didn't. I respect that. The sound was not real in any way I recognize as listening to live music as it was bloated, the timbres were sonically incorrect and frankly it sounded more like a PA system than a SOA system for music reproduction at home. It just made a bad impression that was not remedied by the immediacy of a horn driver for me. Doesn't matter that I have a Steinway in my room. I could have a Steinway up my ass and I wouldn't have liked the Ares Cerat any more or any less. Brad says his reference is live music. So is mine and many others here. Within a week of the show I heard Fado music in Portugal, chamber from Mozart to Strauss in Vienna, Donizetti's opera Elixir of Love at the State Opera in Vienna, Beethoven's 9th at Musikverein, and Mahler and Rott w the Munich Phil. We very likely just hear things differently. Nobody really cares anyway. Let's move on.

BTW, I had the same sense, only worse, listening to the monsterously bad ESD display that sounded far more HIFi than real music to me. I heard "Gates of Kiev" at ESD on my 3rd visit and could not believe that anyone would come away from that thinking it sounded like live music. I have heard this piece at Chicago (it's a signature piece of the CSO), and with Philly at Carnegie and listening to it at MOC through the ESD was just painful. Overwhelming? Yes. A potential cure for constipation? Possibly. Real? Hardly.

I'll pass along a comment by a famous manufacturer who said that when you go into a room demo, you can tell within 5 seconds if the sound is good so you can decide quickly if you want to stay and listen. I agree with that. There were a lot of demos that didn't pass the 5 second test for me. With some, I forced myself to stay more than 5 seconds because they were supposed to be good, but alas, were not. But we have to remember, it's show conditions,. I get that. As many others have said, there just weren't a ton of good sounding displays at MOC.

In the end, what you remember is what moved you the most, like real music does. Along those lines the VTL room and the Lorenzo room and a few others both reminded me of the good ol' days of CES in Chicago and Vegas or RMAF in Denver where the great Dick Shahinian always had a display that was a sanctuary of sound. No matter what you heard at those shows, you could always count on the Shahinian room to sound like real music. He would hold court for hours and far prefer to talk about music than audio gear (while letting his speakers do the talking for him). Not too many Dick Shahinians are at shows like this anymore. Bea Lam (VTL) and Pepa Castro (Lorenzo) as well as some others seem to have inherited the Shahinian torch . But unfortunately, bluster and SPL seemed to rule the days throughout the show.

 

[Zero000]

Sounds like the phone or whatever is overloading badly.

No it's not clipping at all IMHO. It's definitely recorded way louder than that was without clipping before.

It wasn't great sounding in there but it was nowhere near as bad as the phone recording is saying it was.

Seems to be picking up an inordinate amount of room reverb for some reason. It is possible I had my finger close or slightly over the mic. Unsure, TBH.

It's a OnePlus 9 Pro, which at the time was quite expensive new, £900 IIRC. The OnePlus 6 I owned before it had a better microphone setup.

I was watching a 4 hour video on my main system last night recorded using a great setup. Various rooms still fresh in my mind, the recordings sounded nothing like what I heard in the various rooms. It's a futile activity. Apart from the visuals.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Ron, it really doesn't matter what I think. Brad liked it, I didn't. I respect that. The sound was not real in any way I recognize as listening to live music as it was bloated, the timbres were sonically incorrect and frankly it sounded more like a PA system than a SOA system for music reproduction at home. It just made a bad impression that was not remedied by the immediacy of a horn driver for me. Doesn't matter that I have a Steinway in my room. I could have a Steinway up my ass and I wouldn't have liked the Ares Cerat any more or any less. Brad says his reference is live music. So is mine and many others here. Within a week of the show I heard Fado music in Portugal, chamber from Mozart to Strauss in Vienna, Donizetti's opera Elixir of Love at the State Opera in Vienna, Beethoven's 9th at Musikverein, and Mahler and Rott w the Munich Phil. We very likely just hear things differently. Nobody really cares anyway. Let's move on.

BTW, I had the same sense, only worse, listening to the monsterously bad ESD display that sounded far more HIFi than real music to me. I heard "Gates of Kiev" at ESD on my 3rd visit and could not believe that anyone would come away from that thinking it sounded like live music. I have heard this piece at Chicago (it's a signature piece of the CSO), and with Philly at Carnegie and listening to it at MOC through the ESD was just painful. Overwhelming? Yes. A potential cure for constipation? Possibly. Real? Hardly.

I'll pass along a comment by a famous manufacturer who said that when you go into a room demo, you can tell within 5 seconds if the sound is good so you can decide quickly if you want to stay and listen. I agree with that. There were a lot of demos that didn't pass the 5 second test for me. With some, I forced myself to stay more than 5 seconds because they were supposed to be good, but alas, were not. But we have to remember, it's show conditions,. I get that. As many others have said, there just weren't a ton of good sounding displays at MOC.

In the end, what you remember is what moved you the most, like real music does. Along those lines the VTL room and the Lorenzo room and a few others both reminded me of the good ol' days of CES in Chicago and Vegas or RMAF in Denver where the great Dick Shahinian always had a display that was a sanctuary of sound. No matter what you heard at those shows, you could always count on the Shahinian room to sound like real music. He would hold court for hours and far prefer to talk about music than audio gear (while letting his speakers do the talking for him). Not too many Dick Shahinians are at shows like this anymore. Bea Lam (VTL) and Pepa Castro (Lorenzo) as well as some others seem to have inherited the Shahinian torch . But unfortunately, bluster and SPL seemed to rule the days throughout the show.

Chicago CES was best for show sound IMO, enjoyed every show there and every live performance after ...


Regards

 

[Carlos269]

I was watching a 4 hour video on my main system last night recorded using a great setup. Various rooms still fresh in my mind, the recordings sounded nothing like what I heard in the various rooms. It's a futile activity. Apart from the visuals.

How do you reconcile the fact that some of these videos from the Munich show were made with higher quality recordings gear and less post processing & production than most of the music we listen to? Does this not invalidate the whole premise of this hobby?

 

[Al M.]

Seems to be picking up an inordinate amount of room reverb for some reason. It is possible I had my finger close or slightly over the mic. Unsure, TBH.

Excessive reverb is a VERY common problem of system videos, unfortunately. One of the many reasons why most of them are worthless.

 

[Thundersnow]

I missed Munich this year but was there for the two previous years — and the Aries Cerat system was one of the best I’ve heard. Hit the right notes for me on an emotional level. Now I’m really sad I didn’t hear this setup, but at the same time, watching some videos (to me at least) the mids seemed glaringly recessed and the whole sound was just off. Of course, I take my own opinion based on YouTube videos with a HUGE grain of salt, but I did hear it on my own system and in that very well done video of that guy just walking into every single room for several hours in the video. That video (sorry for giving such a crap description) was WAY better than the Total DAC one which sounded like they were shoving the mic straight into the bass membranes of every speaker.

 

[Carlos269]

Excessive reverb is a VERY common problem of system videos, unfortunately. One of the many reasons why most of them are worthless.

The Magico M9 speakers in Korea were recorded with professional equipment, with the microphones positioned in front of each speaker. It still sounded underwhelming. Why do you think that is?

 

[tony22]

where the great Dick Shahinian always had a display that was a sanctuary of sound. No matter what you heard at those shows, you could always count on the Shahinian room to sound like real music. He would hold court for hours and far prefer to talk about music than audio gear (while letting his speakers do the talking for him). Not too many Dick Shahinians are at shows like this anymore.

BRAVO Marty! BRAVO! I knew there was some reason why I often liked reading your posts.

 

[marty]

CH Precision main Room - with Wilson;
I highly appreciate CH precision (at the front) and own P1 & L1 (with X1). I think their neutrality and managing "wire with gain" mentality (that everybody claims to but only CH achieves) leads to "lifeless, plain" music for ears used to the coloration, especially in the mid-bass area. This room was last year and was this year a reference point of what most natural sound would be. There was nothing wrong in the room but can't shake that feeling of "what is missing, can't put my finger on it but.."
View attachment 131100
View attachment 131101

Wilson/CH "There was nothing wrong in the room but can't shake that feeling of "what is missing, can't put my finger on it but.."
One word...tubes!

 

[Zero000]

Here we go. Same phone, real not toy Aries Cerat horns, no room resonance issues. Louder than the Aries room was, no question.

When I was watching this on Sunday night it just put everything into perspective, really. Hi-fi has a long way to go.

Not saying it's a great recording but it is a lot better than the Aries one.

 

[Argonaut]

The sound was not real in any way I recognize as listening to live music as it was bloated, the timbres were sonically incorrect and frankly it sounded more like a PA system than a SOA system for music reproduction at home. It just made a bad impression that was not remedied by the immediacy of a horn driver for me.

I find it curious that out of the vast majority of systems featuring at Munich this year , which you chose to label with :

“ So don’t yell at me when I tell you, I heard a ton bad sound today. In general, the show was plagued with Hi-Fi sound, rather than demos that sounded like music. “

You seem to have singled out one particular system , Horns of course , Valves , for exceptional ire and oft repeated denigration , to the point that you seem unable to cease talking about it .

I am not going to delve into speculation regarding any particular motivations which might explain why such a system would be already convicted and on your personal predilection death row before even heard , altho your comment “ because they were supposed to be good “ does rather draw the eye .

But simply to enquire of your considerations regarding the imho , more measured and considered views of another member who attended the same system presentation over the course of the show , a gentleman without any bias , positive or negative in his forum postings that I can recall , never given to emotive hyperbole , a reliable witness if you will :

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/munich-highend-2024.38470/post-969076



https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/munich-highend-2024.38470/post-969086

I was particularily taken with the closing sentence :

“ I'm hoping that everyone that heard it could mask away the room and listen to the underlying beauty there.”

 

[Kingsrule]

Ron, it really doesn't matter what I think. Brad liked it, I didn't. I respect that. The sound was not real in any way I recognize as listening to live music as it was bloated, the timbres were sonically incorrect and frankly it sounded more like a PA system than a SOA system for music reproduction at home. It just made a bad impression that was not remedied by the immediacy of a horn driver for me. Doesn't matter that I have a Steinway in my room. I could have a Steinway up my ass and I wouldn't have liked the Ares Cerat any more or any less. Brad says his reference is live music. So is mine and many others here. Within a week of the show I heard Fado music in Portugal, chamber from Mozart to Strauss in Vienna, Donizetti's opera Elixir of Love at the State Opera in Vienna, Beethoven's 9th at Musikverein, and Mahler and Rott w the Munich Phil. We very likely just hear things differently. Nobody really cares anyway. Let's move on.

BTW, I had the same sense, only worse, listening to the monsterously bad ESD display that sounded far more HIFi than real music to me. I heard "Gates of Kiev" at ESD on my 3rd visit and could not believe that anyone would come away from that thinking it sounded like live music. I have heard this piece at Chicago (it's a signature piece of the CSO), and with Philly at Carnegie and listening to it at MOC through the ESD was just painful. Overwhelming? Yes. A potential cure for constipation? Possibly. Real? Hardly.

I'll pass along a comment by a famous manufacturer who said that when you go into a room demo, you can tell within 5 seconds if the sound is good so you can decide quickly if you want to stay and listen. I agree with that. There were a lot of demos that didn't pass the 5 second test for me. With some, I forced myself to stay more than 5 seconds because they were supposed to be good, but alas, were not. But we have to remember, it's show conditions,. I get that. As many others have said, there just weren't a ton of good sounding displays at MOC.

In the end, what you remember is what moved you the most, like real music does. Along those lines the VTL room and the Lorenzo room and a few others both reminded me of the good ol' days of CES in Chicago and Vegas or RMAF in Denver where the great Dick Shahinian always had a display that was a sanctuary of sound. No matter what you heard at those shows, you could always count on the Shahinian room to sound like real music. He would hold court for hours and far prefer to talk about music than audio gear (while letting his speakers do the talking for him). Not too many Dick Shahinians are at shows like this anymore. Bea Lam (VTL) and Pepa Castro (Lorenzo) as well as some others seem to have inherited the Shahinian torch . But unfortunately, bluster and SPL seemed to rule the days throughout the show.

Funny His Obelisks were horrible. No image height, phase issues. He did however have an amazing collection of classical music

 

[Carlos269]

Here we go. Same phone, real not toy Aries Cerat horns, no room resonance issues. Louder than the Aries room was, no question.

When I was watching this on Sunday night it just put everything into perspective, really. Hi-fi has a long way to go.

Not saying it's a great recording but it is a lot better than the Aries one.

This.video of the live musicians sounds good to me. I wonder if everyone can hear the high-frequency extension, bite and grit coming off of those brass horns; nothing smooth or curtailed there.

You happen to have a magic phone that can record real musicians out in nature convincingly but one that cannot record audio systems in room accurately. Go figure!

 

[KeithR]

Aeries Cerat switches to aircraft engine manufacture.

It’s literally the ugliest speaker I’ve ever seen - and that’s with the new Vivid monstrosity being released at the same show.

 

[marty]

I find it curious that out of the vast majority of systems featuring at Munich this year , which you chose to label with :

“ So don’t yell at me when I tell you, I heard a ton bad sound today. In general, the show was plagued with Hi-Fi sound, rather than demos that sounded like music. “

You seem to have singled out one particular system , Horns of course , Valves , for exceptional ire and oft repeated denigration , to the point that you seem unable to cease talking about it .

I am not going to delve into speculation regarding any particular motivations which might explain why such a system would be already convicted and on your personal predilection death row before even heard , altho your comment “ because they were supposed to be good “ does rather draw the eye .

But simply to enquire of your considerations regarding the imho , more measured and considered views of another member who attended the same system presentation over the course of the show , a gentleman without any bias , positive or negative in his forum postings that I can recall , never given to emotive hyperbole , a reliable witness if you will :

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/munich-highend-2024.38470/post-969076



https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/munich-highend-2024.38470/post-969086

I was particularily taken with the closing sentence :

“ I'm hoping that everyone that heard it could mask away the room and listen to the underlying beauty there.”

Say what you will about my preferences, but don’t put words in my mouth by saying I judged something before I heard it. Regarding horns, did you miss my comments on the Lorenzo and Cessaro? - both are horns that I thought sounded very appealing.

 

[Al M.]

Ron, it really doesn't matter what I think. Brad liked it, I didn't. I respect that. The sound was not real in any way I recognize as listening to live music as it was bloated, the timbres were sonically incorrect and frankly it sounded more like a PA system than a SOA system for music reproduction at home. It just made a bad impression that was not remedied by the immediacy of a horn driver for me. Doesn't matter that I have a Steinway in my room. I could have a Steinway up my ass and I wouldn't have liked the Ares Cerat any more or any less. Brad says his reference is live music. So is mine and many others here. Within a week of the show I heard Fado music in Portugal, chamber from Mozart to Strauss in Vienna, Donizetti's opera Elixir of Love at the State Opera in Vienna, Beethoven's 9th at Musikverein, and Mahler and Rott w the Munich Phil. We very likely just hear things differently. Nobody really cares anyway. Let's move on.

BTW, I had the same sense, only worse, listening to the monsterously bad ESD display that sounded far more HIFi than real music to me. I heard "Gates of Kiev" at ESD on my 3rd visit and could not believe that anyone would come away from that thinking it sounded like live music. I have heard this piece at Chicago (it's a signature piece of the CSO), and with Philly at Carnegie and listening to it at MOC through the ESD was just painful. Overwhelming? Yes. A potential cure for constipation? Possibly. Real? Hardly.

I'll pass along a comment by a famous manufacturer who said that when you go into a room demo, you can tell within 5 seconds if the sound is good so you can decide quickly if you want to stay and listen. I agree with that. There were a lot of demos that didn't pass the 5 second test for me. With some, I forced myself to stay more than 5 seconds because they were supposed to be good, but alas, were not. But we have to remember, it's show conditions,. I get that. As many others have said, there just weren't a ton of good sounding displays at MOC.

In the end, what you remember is what moved you the most, like real music does. Along those lines the VTL room and the Lorenzo room and a few others both reminded me of the good ol' days of CES in Chicago and Vegas or RMAF in Denver where the great Dick Shahinian always had a display that was a sanctuary of sound. No matter what you heard at those shows, you could always count on the Shahinian room to sound like real music. He would hold court for hours and far prefer to talk about music than audio gear (while letting his speakers do the talking for him). Not too many Dick Shahinians are at shows like this anymore. Bea Lam (VTL) and Pepa Castro (Lorenzo) as well as some others seem to have inherited the Shahinian torch . But unfortunately, bluster and SPL seemed to rule the days throughout the show.

Sorry, Marty, may I ask what is ESD?

 

[Argonaut]

Say what you will about my preferences, but don’t put words in my mouth by saying I judged something before I heard it. Regarding horns, did you miss my comments on the Lorenzo and Cessaro? - both are horns that I thought sounded very appealing.

You are not predisposed against Horns and Valves then ? I am quite comfortable in what I posted , how about your considerations upon Ricardo’s posts ?