MSB Select II arrival

[sbo6]

To start with, last time I checked in 75 pages I made no mention of Lampi compares on this thread, until micro specifically called out my name regarding compares of Lampi with Select 2 in any system, to which I replied, to which you replied, and now you make it Mike's system. You also came out of the woodwork purely to attack me as you always do since I said I preferred the Lampi to Esoteric in three systems. Glad you finally realized what you were listening to and moved away from the Esoteric to the Aqua. Maybe one day you can move to the Lampi. One step at a time. Anyway, I don't want to help you take Mike's thread to the dirt so

Ked, this thread is about Mike's system, more specifically Mike's digital. He owned a Lampi dumped for the Aqua dumped for the MSB. And while Mike PCs the Lampi ("Could have lived with it forever") it's 2 DACs back for him and long gone. Facts - get over it.

Maybe one day you can move to a system of your own for your Lampi. One step at a time. Then you won't have to rely on other's systems; you'll even gain some long - term listening experience, very different than 3 hours at a pal's place. Start saving.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, this thread is about Mike's system, more specifically Mike's digital. He owned a Lampi dumped for the Aqua dumped for the MSB. And while Mike PCs the Lampi ("Could have lived with it forever") it's 2 DACs back for him and long gone. Facts - get over it.

Maybe one day you can move to a system of your own for your Lampi. One step at a time. Then you won't have to rely on other's systems; you'll even gain some long - term listening experience, very different than 3 hours at a pal's place. Start saving.

Did you read the part where Microstrip called out specifically and then Mike asked me to post? Or do you want to just bore on. You should be on UK forums were people brawl all the time

 

[sbo6]

Did you read the part where Microstrip called out specifically and then Mike asked me to post? Or do you want to just bore on. You should be on UK forums were people brawl all the time

Asking to post vs. being a condescending disrespectful ass are two very different things. Go ahead and post away about others' systems.

Moving on....

 

[bonzo75]

Asking to post vs. being a condescending disrespectful ass are two very different things. Go ahead and post away about others' systems.

Moving on....

Moving on till I post again so you can jump in?

 

[microstrip]

Perhaps it is just me but I would appreciate to read people commenting on specific recordings and how they sound in each DAC and system. More like Jacob Heilbrunn http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/?authors=21 reviews - he picks a few recordings and then dissects how the equipment sounds with it. See for example his last review in TAS : http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/van-alstine-dva-850-hybrid-monoblock-amplifier/

I can not find any interest in just learning that the brother of the cousin of the sister in law that I never met prefers X to Y. Surely IMMV.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Micro, the very essence of the problem interpreting reviews/opinions.

 

[bonzo75]

Perhaps it is just me but I would appreciate to read people commenting on specific recordings and how they sound in each DAC and system. More like Jacob Heilbrunn http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/?authors=21 reviews - he picks a few recordings and then dissects how the equipment sounds with it. See for example his last review in TAS : http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/van-alstine-dva-850-hybrid-monoblock-amplifier/

I can not find any interest in just learning that the brother of the cousin of the sister in law that I never met prefers X to Y. Surely IMMV.

I think my specific recordings are known. They are a subset of the link listed in my signature, and Mahler 2, Scheherazade, Bach Chorals, baritone, Bartoli, Pictures at an exhibition, and the Mendessohn are the usually played ones on CD. The Emperor, Scheherazade, Bruch Scottsig Fantasia, Winterrise, and Argenta Espana make up the LPs.

 

[microstrip]

I think my specific recordings are known. They are a subset of the link listed in my signature, and Mahler 2, Scheherazade, Bach Chorals, baritone, Bartoli, Pictures at an exhibition, and the Mendessohn are the usually played ones on CD. The Emperor, Scheherazade, Bruch Scottsig Fantasia, Winterrise, and Argenta Espana make up the LPs.

I am not asking for the list of recordings - per se it is completely useless in this thread. It is the details on how they sound - did you read any Jacob Heilbrunn's reviews?

 

[microstrip]

Micro, the very essence of the problem interpreting reviews/opinions.

It is why ask for real "unprocessed data" to supplement the opinion. I repeat my previous question - did you did you read any Jacob Heilbrunn's reviews?

 

[Al M.]

The Lampi with special 45s was then plugged into the AR (through the MSB dac pre, using MSB transport). It just superb, the dealer too was surprised... Much more depth, stage, flow, tone, liquidity then the MSB. The tympani bass was much superior, coming from space with depth, rather than more from the speakers. Loads of air. More liquidity and tonal difference. Each note decayed more, the difference was more apparent on tuttis. The 242 did not sound good here (hard and forward) and the PX25 slightly better than MSB I would say but a bit dark.

What do you mean by 'flow' and 'liquidity'? These terms mean nothing to me. In my experience, (unamplified) live music does not particularly stand out by 'fluidity'; on the contrary, there is so much detail that draws attention to itself that I rarely experience live music as 'fluid'. If a system suppresses detail, as well as energy and speed of transients, then the music might sound more 'fluid', but that would be an artifact, a weakness rather than a strength. In fact, I have experienced just that upon some playback, and while it was a 'pleasant' effect, it had nothing to do with the real thing.

 

[bonzo75]

What do you mean by 'flow' and 'liquidity'? These terms mean nothing to me. In my experience, live music does not particularly stand out by 'fluidity'; on the contrary, there is so much detail that draws attention to itself that I rarely experience live music as 'fluid'. If a system suppresses detail and energy as well as speed of transients, then the music might sound more 'fluid', but that would be an artifact, a weakness rather than a strength.

Then we interpret the terms differently. For me live music flows and is liquid. As is analog. Not sure how else to describe it. My favorite SET horn systems flow.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Attached are the pics, and for those who don't know, I had already exchanged emails on this with Mike even before Micro asked the question yesterday, hence Mike's smiley to that.

As for my findings

The MSB into MSB 204 was really unnatural. It was ground to the MSB amp through the MSB pre, extremely quiet, but the blackness and roll off was just too not natural for me.

The MSB dac into AR was really nice - there was the quietness of the MSB, when a note stopped playing the pause and quietness added to the musicality, as it transitioned to the other note. However, the kuzma stabi M into airtight 5500 phono with a transfiguration 1500 cart (all prices GBP) was for me the vastly better, and the dealer enjoyed it more too. HE says AT 2005 is one of his killer price phonos, and he also let me compare it to the 12k Music First phono, which was noisier, harsher, and flatter, tonally could not differentiate as much as the air tight, and separation on orchestral was less as well. The MSB amps were also slower, less dynamic, and more rolled off with less stage than the AR 250, the thing that SS is supposed to be better at.

The Lampi with special 45s was then plugged into the AR (through the MSB dac pre, using MSB transport). It just superb, the dealer too was surprised... Much more depth, stage, flow, tone, liquidity then the MSB. The tympani bass was much superior, coming from space with depth, rather than more from the speakers. Loads of air. More liquidity and tonal difference. Each note decayed more, the difference was more apparent on tuttis. The 242 did not sound good here (hard and forward) and the PX25 slightly better than MSB I would say but a bit dark.

With the MSB amps, the Lampi was much noisier, but then it also did not benefit from the grounding between MSB dac and MSB amps. The kuzma too did not sound natural through MSB amps. The 242 distorted when we had the MSB amps on.

That said, having heard Mike's system, in his I am sure I would prefer MSB dac to Lampi, because he would get the lower noise floor I heard with the MSB amp plus the musicality I heard with the AR (plus more) through his Darts. And I can also see that any valve in his system causes a waviness that does not work as it causes haziness.

I most came out impressed with the ATE-2005 for the price.

thanks Ked, for this perspective.

when I think back to both the GG, it's various tube choices, and the Nagra HD, and it's variable perspectives based on the progress of the SGM/HQ Player evolution, there are things here to consider.

interesting that the MSB and Kuzma did not sound natural with the MSB amps. I've heard those amps in a few systems (mostly with the MSB Select II) and never found them un-natural. I wonder exactly what is going on there?

and what role did that speaker system have in the equation?

you mentioned 'dealer'; was he an MSB dealer (he does have lots of MSB kit sitting there)?

 

[bonzo75]

I am not asking for the list of recordings - per se it is completely useless in this thread. It is the details on how they sound - did you read any Jacob Heilbrunn's reviews?

Micro - When I write I do write differences on recordings, if you see the difference here between the GFS and the Anna. http://zero-distortion.org/mike-lavignepuget-studiosjazdoc-evolution-acoustic-mm7/ I did read Jacob's first two.

To me, for this particular compare the differences were consistent, so recordings are less relevant. Plus, I am not going to write that long an article at the moment, this is just a forum post.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It is why ask for real "unprocessed data" to supplement the opinion. I repeat my previous question - did you did you read any Jacob Heilbrunn's reviews?

I once tried to be a reviewer.

too much like work.

i'll try harder to make you happy Micro.

 

[sbo6]

Moving on till I post again so you can jump in?

For the record you responded to my post. I could care less about your heavily biased "Lampi rules" comments.

Quote Originally Posted by sbo6 View Post
Wasn't the Lampizator dethroned by the Aqua Audio Formula in Mike's system? And the Aqua was dethroned by the MSB? Sooo why compare #3 to #1? ;-)
Where, when Shakti, who has a group that regularly do shootouts in cologne found that aqua scala > big 7 > formula > GG? He has two systems, YG Anat with Krell and Zingali with many great sets. I haven't heard the formula, so unlike you, do not comment on the dacs I have not heard. You haven't heard Mike's system either

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Then we interpret the terms differently. For me live music flows and is liquid. As is analog. Not sure how else to describe it. My favorite SET horn systems flow.

to me liquidity is a shimmering surface descriptor over the music that is mostly a plus, but can be exposed as an artifact when an alternate view is heard without it. in some systems liquidity is the perfect answer to the entire balance.

musical flow to me is more a cohesion and balance with micro-dynamics, where the top to bottom balance allows the flow and inner tension to come through with the sense of ensemble.

agree that analog has musical plow.

I do see that continuousness can also be liquid too. so I guess 'liquid' can mean a few things.

 

[microstrip]

I once tried to be a reviewer.

too much like work.

i'll try harder to make you happy Micro.

My fault - I have to send you this recording http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23072-My-curent-reference-Les-routes-de-l%B4esclavage-(Jordi-Savall). I am sure it will augment your admiration for the Select II!

 

[microstrip]

Micro - When I write I do write differences on recordings, if you see the difference here between the GFS and the Anna. http://zero-distortion.org/mike-lavignepuget-studiosjazdoc-evolution-acoustic-mm7/ I did read Jacob's first two.

To me, for this particular compare the differences were consistent, so recordings are less relevant. Plus, I am not going to write that long an article at the moment, this is just a forum post.

We are referring to MSB and other DAC's, why is the Anna referred?

 

[bonzo75]

thanks Ked, for this perspective.

when I think back to both the GG, it's various tube choices, and the Nagra HD, and it's variable perspectives based on the progress of the SGM/HQ Player evolution, there are things here to consider.

interesting that the MSB and Kuzma did not sound natural with the MSB amps. I've heard those amps in a few systems (mostly with the MSB Select II) and never found them un-natural. I wonder exactly what is going on there?

you mentioned 'dealer'; was he an MSB dealer (he does have lots of MSB kit sitting there)?

That is his stock system. The AR were plugged in coz I requested for a compare of amps. Btw, I am not a fan of lower AR models. This was my first compare with 250.

The thing is, I know you got the GG made for the 242, but when I plugged in 242 to Dartzeel integrated and the Dartzeel pre with the 108 amps, I did not like the 242. The PX25 and special 45s sounded better. I don't see the special 45s sounding good in your system because they have a higher noise floor. Also, it's quite possible the SGM settings do not work as well with the Lampi. I have compared SGM to Auralic Aries only at Bill's into the Lampi, and I found it only marginally better, while comparing Aurender w20 to Auralic into the Lampi, I found Aurender much better.

With Nagra I found it to have a one tone artefact, low soundstage and drive, just a one tone liquid artefact that did not do anything for me. If anyone has tried driving a speaker like YG or Focal with a Nagra classic, and replaced it with an amp with more drive, current, and tone, that is the difference I got replacing with a Lampi. But you should know I take along three pairs of tubes and tune in the one with best impedance/gain match.

The dealer is fantastic and has loads of kit. I don't want to comment much on the dealer as it can be misinterpreted. Possibly unnatural is a harsh word but well all I can say is I much more preferred the AR. And yes, I have preferred Spectral to VTL s450 on XLF, and Gamut to AR Ref 110 on my own Summits, so this might have been synergy with the Tannoys.

Don't get me wrong - I preferred the MSB much more to the Nagra or Vivaldi relative to my compares. And people can read my report on the Aries Cerat where I did find it better than the Lampi with different biasing and speaker. It had to go back and forth as we changed biasing/tubes on our dacs.

For me one thing is certain. Digital cannot come close to analog, and while I like many SS amps, also SS phonos, I find SS digital particularly difficult. So some readers might want to interpret that as a bias.

 

[bonzo75]

to me liquidity is a shimmering surface descriptor over the music that is mostly a plus, but can be exposed as an artifact when an alternate view is heard without it. in some systems liquidity is the perfect answer to the entire balance.

musical flow to me is more a cohesion and balance with micro-dynamics, where the top to bottom balance allows the flow and inner tension to come through with the sense of ensemble.

agree that analog has musical plow.

I do see that continuousness can also be liquid too. so I guess 'liquid' can mean a few things.

I meant the continuousness and flow of analog. Analog does not seem to break. Violins show it very quickly, as wind instruments. And you can play and play.