Michael Fremer on Audio

[edorr]

Probably not a bad thing...

Probably true. The guys that ended up opening the first CD only shop in Amsterdam went out of business.

 

[mep]

You have exactly the same problem overloading vinyl, analog tape, and every other medium at a much lower level.

Absolutely untrue. You hit 0dB on a digital recording and the world comes to an end. If you hit 0dB on the VU meter of a tape deck during recording all is fine in the world.

 

[NorthStar]

I can easily agree with these points - I also embraced CD some years after its launch. But, besides wanting to buy new music, it was the very poor quality of the LP pressings of that period that drove me away from buying vinyl. At that time the owners of some music shops told me that one of the big problems in the LP sales was the excessive number of returns. No problem assuming that currently more than 80% of my listening time is carried with CDs.

-----Warped LPs were the norm back then. And the center holes were never centered either.

When I switched to CDs back in 85 I didn't have warped CDs, but pin holes on them though,
where you can see through! ...Miss the pits!

 

[Gregadd]

On many cases CD plants were opened inside former LP factories. I recall as the record store below my office slowly ran out of inventory. That includes significant new old stock Tje only places you could get vinyl was places like elusive disc and music direct. I luckily discovered a used record shop in my neighborhood called Memory Lane.

 

[mep]

And much to my personal delight. IMO it is a far far superior technology. I really enjoy listening to them. Debussy without pops and clicks. The loudest crecendos and fff without the distortion of mistracking. No more fiddling with stylus cleaners, record cleaners, worrying about whether or not the stylus is worn out. And easy convenient access to any part of the recording without budging from your chair. The people have spoken...with their money. The vinyl phonograph record is long long dead. Only a niche market holds out hope of bringing it back. It won't happen. The high end audio market will just be lucky if the rest of it doesn't go the same way. It will be interesting to see who survives the current depression and who doesn't.

Wow. The world as you wish it was vs. how things really are. First of all, vinyl is far from dead. It might have been on life support for awhile many years ago, but it has come back with a vengeance. One could certainly make an argument that there are more tables at all price points currently on the market than there ever was at anytime in history. There is so much brand new vinyl for sale right now that you couldn't possibly own it all unless you are among the rich.

Being a digital die-hard shouldn't make one wish ill thoughts about other recording/playback mediums. I own and playback both mediums and respect both for what they bring to the table.

 

[edorr]

Wow. The world as you wish it was vs. how things really are. First of all, vinyl is far from dead. It might have been on life support for awhile many years ago, but it has come back with a vengeance. One could certainly make an argument that there are more tables at all price points currently on the market than there ever was at anytime in history. There is so much brand new vinyl for sale right now that you couldn't possibly own it all unless you are among the rich.

Being a digital die-hard shouldn't make one wish ill thoughts about other recording/playback mediums. I own and playback both mediums and respect both for what they bring to the table.

Ironically, it is now conceivable computer based audio kills CD before it kills vinyl (if ever). Who would have thought....

 

[Soundminded]

Absolutely untrue. You hit 0dB on a digital recording and the world comes to an end. If you hit 0dB on the VU meter of a tape deck during recording all is fine in the world.

You hit 0 db on the VU meter of an analog tape deck and you still have at least 20 to 30 db or more of headroom for a CD. If you hit 0 db on a CD, it's because you did it deliberately, that's what you wanted. What you don't get on a CD made from a digital master is 40 db of NAB equalization on the master tape recording and playback, 40 more db of NAB on the mixdown tape, dividing the recording signal into 4 bands and then putting each of them through dynamic compression with variable equalization and then inverse expansion with equalization before you reintegrate them, and then another 40 db of RIAA equalization on mastering the vinyl and then on playing it back again. At least 14 stages of equalization and that doesn't include the knob twirling by the balance engineer. What a mess.

 

[flez007]

Is this an ad for Redbull?

nop, it is an Old Spice one!

 

[rockitman]

Another analog vs digital debate with the spec objectivists out in force. Call the Fire Dept. !

 

[edorr]

nop, it is an Old Spice one!

He is launching his own brand. It will be called "Vinyl Crank".

 

[mep]

Ironically, it is now conceivable computer based audio kills CD before it kills vinyl (if ever). Who would have thought....

So true…I started a thread on this forum quite some time ago to discuss the demise of the CD. Gone are the days when you could jump in your car and drive to what used to be your local source for CDs and expect to find what you want to buy. The funny thing is that CDs are dying as a physical medium for purchase by consumers and what has replaced them for consumption by the same set of customers is compressed digital files available as downloads.

Another thing I find ironic is the general audio knowledge level of people who only listen to digital with regards to what digital formats are available and what the sonic pecking order is. I’m sure that many digital consumers think MP-3s are just another ‘advanced’ way of bringing them digital music cheaper and ‘better’ than CDs. The average digital person has no idea that SACDs exist and what that means. Ditto for the DVD-A format. Digital hi-rez music which includes all of the stops up to 24/192-forget about it. DSDx1 and DSDx2? Now you are speaking in tongues.

 

[NorthStar]

Ironically, it is now conceivable computer based audio kills CD before it kills vinyl (if ever). Who would have thought....

-----...Or unless you have an 'analog' PC.

 

[Soundminded]

Another analog vs digital debate with the spec objectivists out in force. Call the Fire Dept. !

As a subjectivist, I'll take the side of digital compact discs because it sounds more accurate to me. No audible noise, no audible distortion, no audible compression. What it lacks is consistancy of spectral balance. That's most likely because recording studios stopped equalizing their monitor speakers which gave vinyl some sort of consistency, hired recording engineers from the ranks of audiophiles, and when they brought their consumer style high end audio systems into studios for playback, the results are all over the map. That means each recording has to be re-equalized at home to get acceptable results. It's a long tedious job for a trained musical ear and therefore a job only a subjectivist can handle. Objectivists who just put the recording on and expect top notch results will be in for a disappointment again and again. That's why they revert to vinyl made before audiophiles got to set up recording studios. To get analog vinyl equivalent results from an uncompressed cd, you have to add dynamic compression which adds more audible reverberation to the end of every musical phrase by momentarily increasing its gain.

 

[flez007]

Interesting quote I heard from our guest from Dagogo at the RMAf dinner, he called us "media hobbyists" after browsing the website.

 

[edorr]

So true…I started a thread on this forum quite some time ago to discuss the demise of the CD. Gone are the days when you could jump in your car and drive to what used to be your local source for CDs and expect to find what you want to buy. The funny thing is that CDs are dying as a physical medium for purchase by consumers and what has replaced them for consumption by the same set of customers is compressed digital files available as downloads.

Another thing I find ironic is the general audio knowledge level of people who only listen to digital with regards to what digital formats are available and what the sonic pecking order is. I’m sure that many digital consumers think MP-3s are just another ‘advanced’ way of bringing them digital music cheaper and ‘better’ than CDs. The average digital person has no idea that SACDs exist and what that means. Ditto for the DVD-A format. Digital hi-rez music which includes all of the stops up to 24/192-forget about it. DSDx1 and DSDx2? Now you are speaking in tongues.

The reason is most people actually are first and foremost interested in music, and secondarily in sound quality (if at all), when it comes to gear the objective is to minimize financial outlays. This is not necessarily a bad thing, (although frustrating for those who would have loves to see SACD succeed). With all due respect, a lot of audiophiles (and I am not 100% guiltless myself)have these priorities exactly reversed. First priority is to maximize spend, second make sure it sounds good, and third is actual musical content.

 

[NorthStar]

So true…I started a thread on this forum quite some time ago to discuss the demise of the CD. Gone are the days when you could jump in your car and drive to what used to be your local source for CDs and expect to find what you want to buy. The funny thing is that CDs are dying as a physical medium for purchase by consumers and what has replaced them for consumption by the same set of customers is compressed digital files available as downloads.

-----...And LPs.

Another thing I find ironic is the general audio knowledge level of people who only listen to digital with regards to what digital formats are available and what the sonic pecking order is. I’m sure that many digital consumers think MP-3s are just another ‘advanced’ way of bringing them digital music cheaper and ‘better’ than CDs. The average digital person has no idea that SACDs exist and what that means. Ditto for the DVD-A format. Digital hi-rez music which includes all of the stops up to 24/192-forget about it. DSDx1 and DSDx2? Now you are speaking in tongues.

-----Very true; don't go to an audio/video store and ask 'bout those formats! ...You're on your own. :b

 

[mep]

You hit 0 db on the VU meter of an analog tape deck and you still have at least 20 to 30 db or more of headroom for a CD. If you hit 0 db on a CD, it's because you did it deliberately, that's what you wanted. What you don't get on a CD made from a digital master is 40 db of NAB equalization on the master tape recording and playback, 40 more db of NAB on the mixdown tape, dividing the recording signal into 4 bands and then putting each of them through dynamic compression with variable equalization and then inverse expansion with equalization before you reintegrate them, and then another 40 db of RIAA equalization on mastering the vinyl and then on playing it back again. At least 14 stages of equalization and that doesn't include the knob twirling by the balance engineer. Stick that in your passive preamplifier and your one tube triode amplifier and smoke it. What a mess.

Where or where are you getting your 'facts?' There is no headroom on a digital recorder above 0dB. Zip. Nada. None. And by the way, I don't own a passive preamp or a one tube triode amp.

 

[NorthStar]

Interesting quote I heard from our guest from Dagogo at the RMAf dinner, he called us "media hobbyists" after browsing the website.

------ What's that? ...Mediaphiles?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Where or where are you getting your 'facts?' There is no headroom on a digital recorder above 0dB. Zip. Nada. None. And by the way, I don't own a passive preamp or a one tube triode amp.

I'm confused. Why does it matter if there is headroom above 0 dB on a digital recorder?

 

[NorthStar]

I'm confused. Why does it matter if there is headroom above 0 dB on a digital recorder?

-----For the noise rejection?