Michael Fremer on Audio

[dallasjustice]

The false choice argument is often presented in this context: You must compromise musical fidelity so that you may obtain greater convenience. You can have both.

 

[Soundminded]

Imagine that and it is still the best sounding format next to master Reel tape. You can't fix bad/brickwalled/compressed/normalized digital.

You don't have to fix a brick walled dynamic range limit...if you don't hit your head into it. That's why the ceiling was made high enough for even the widest dynamic range music, classical music. You have exactly the same problem overloading vinyl, analog tape, and every other medium at a much lower level. If pop music producers want the loudest sound they can get so they stand out on radio broadcasts, then that's what you'll get.

 

[Soundminded]

The false choice argument is often presented in this context: You must compromise musical fidelity so that you may obtain greater convenience. You can have both.

Why not? Why can't a superior technology be more convenient to use. I Windows better and more convenient than DOS or Unix?

 

[Gregadd]

Vinyl IS the equivalent of MP3. Vinyl is inherently a lossy system.

That's funny.

 

[edorr]

Why not? Why can't a superior technology be more convenient to use. I Windows better and more convenient than DOS or Unix?

That is precisely what he is saying. You CAN have both.

 

[Gregadd]

The CD was not a choice it was forced on us. It did provide a momentary financial bonanza for the record industry. It also led to a complacency that eventually led to its downfall.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

The CD was not a choice it was forced on us. It did provide a momentary financial bonanza for the record industry. It also led to a complacency that eventually led to its downfall.

It wasn't forced on anyone. The consumer decided they preferred it (much to my personal chagrin).

 

[Soundminded]

It wasn't forced on anyone. The consumer decided they preferred it (much to my personal chagrin).

And much to my personal delight. IMO it is a far far superior technology. I really enjoy listening to them. Debussy without pops and clicks. The loudest crecendos and fff without the distortion of mistracking. No more fiddling with stylus cleaners, record cleaners, worrying about whether or not the stylus is worn out. And easy convenient access to any part of the recording without budging from your chair. The people have spoken...with their money. The vinyl phonograph record is long long dead. Only a niche market holds out hope of bringing it back. It won't happen. The high end audio market will just be lucky if the rest of it doesn't go the same way. It will be interesting to see who survives the current depression and who doesn't.

 

[Gregadd]

 

[rockitman]

Debussy without pops and clicks. The loudest crecendos and fff without the distortion of mistracking.

No pops and clicks on my version, no mistracking/distortion...only glorious sound that only vinyl can bring to the original analog master tapes...true to the source like no other.

 

[edorr]

The CD was not a choice it was forced on us. It did provide a momentary financial bonanza for the record industry. It also led to a complacency that eventually led to its downfall.

Last time I checked there was no mandatory CD buying quota imposed on the general public. The CD was simply a product innovation that met a real market need, and therefore became a commercial succes.

Then the internet came along which changed the rules of the game in digital content distribution. This industry is more intersted in actually selling stuff (preferably lots of it), than stopping some dinosaur audio reviewer throwing hissy fits on the internet about the quality of digital audio. So understandably they jumped on the opportunity to make money (and stop the bleeding inflicted through music piracy) through digital distribution in lossy format when Steve Jobs build the infrastructure allowing them to do so, rather then diverting resources to developing an promoting an audiophile digital format. For the record, Sony / Philips tried (SACD) and it was a commercial disaster.

I guess the survival of vinyl through all of this is testimony to some of its inherent qualities. I say: congratulations, enjoy your vinyl and scoop up every new LP that is released. Meanwhile let others enjoy their digital and get on with it.

 

[Gregadd]

I got into CD because if you wanted new music you had to buy CD

 

[NorthStar]

Michael Fremer is a reviewer. That means manufacturers who believe they can make a better product submit them to him for evaluation. He has found many of them have made a better product. He has decided to make some of them his own.

The problems of vinyl are well documented. All of them by their proponents. Digital continues to go down. Does vinyl have the equivalent of MP3? Indeed digital looking for something less than MP3. Does vinyl have something called lossy vs lossless?

-----I totally disagree; Digital just keeps improving, with less than 0.1 picosecond of jitter (MSB Diamond DAC IV).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I got into CD because if you wanted new music you had to buy CD

Then you got into it late, like I did. For quite awhile there were both CDs and LPs in music stores. LPs disappeared because demand for them wasn't enough for the big companies. They came back, as a niche market item, when small audiophile companies realized there was enough demand to make a premium business out of LPs. That's the way the market works. If enough people want something, somebody will sell it to them. What they are willing to pay is what it is worth. It's pretty basic stuff.

Tim

 

[edorr]

Then you got into it late, like I did. For quite awhile there were both CDs and LPs in music stores. LPs disappeared because demand for them wasn't enough for the big companies. They came back, as a niche market item, when small audiophile companies realized there was enough demand to make a premium business out of LPs. That's the way the market works. If enough people want something, somebody will sell it to them. What they are willing to pay is what it is worth. It's pretty basic stuff.

Tim

Which brings back memories. I recall browsing through record stores in Amsterdam at the times (80s), all of which had some CDs tucked away in a corner, buried beween a huge inventory of LPs. I totally anticipated CDs taking over and making LPs a relic of the past, so I put together a business plan for the first CD only store in Amsterdam. I took it to a bank (ABN-AMRO) and they refused funding, saying they were not so sure about the future of CD (this is obvioulsy the Netherlands, not the USA). The rest is history ...

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Which brings back memories. I recall browsing through record stores in Amsterdam at the times (80s), all of which had some CDs tucked away in a corner, buried beween a huge inventory of LPs. I totally anticipated CDs taking over and making LPs a relic of the past, so I put together a business plan for the first CD only store in Amsterdam. I took it to a bank (ABN-AMRO) and they refused funding, saying they were not so sure about the future of CD (this is obvioulsy the Netherlands, not the USA). The rest is history ...

??????

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Imagine that and it is still the best sounding format next to master Reel tape. You can't fix bad/brickwalled/compressed/normalized digital.

This is an argument against contemporary recording and mastering. It has nothing to do with format. It is also a very minor to non-existent problem in most of the music I listen to. Are you listening to a lot of pop? No? Jazz, classical, acoustic? Then this is not the problem you're having with digital.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Then you got into it late, like I did. For quite awhile there were both CDs and LPs in music stores. LPs disappeared because demand for them wasn't enough for the big companies. They came back, as a niche market item, when small audiophile companies realized there was enough demand to make a premium business out of LPs. That's the way the market works. If enough people want something, somebody will sell it to them. What they are willing to pay is what it is worth. It's pretty basic stuff.

Tim

I can easily agree with these points - I also embraced CD some years after its launch. But, besides wanting to buy new music, it was the very poor quality of the LP pressings of that period that drove me away from buying vinyl. At that time the owners of some music shops told me that one of the big problems in the LP sales was the excessive number of returns. No problem assuming that currently more than 80% of my listening time is carried with CDs.

 

[edorr]

??????

I simply mean in the USA I would have gotten the funding. Banks in the Netherlands are more risk averse.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I simply mean in the USA I would have gotten the funding. Banks in the Netherlands are more risk averse.

Probably not a bad thing...