Magnepans vs. Electrostatics. What is the better technology? What do you prefer?

[GT Audio Works]

Greg, are your magnets neodynium?

Hi Bonzo,
Yes they are.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Bonzo,
Yes they are.

When you mentioned it to me before I had no idea what that meant. Recently I was talking with a friend of mine who got a refurbed Apgee Duetta Sig, and he put in a lot in the spec - made the whole frame aluminium, took out the crossovers, tweaked them, etc etc. Then he mentioned to me that he asked for Neodymium magnets but the price quoted for him to do that was much higher because those magnets are higher quality. Then it struck me, and I mentioned to him that your speakers have that. He was like wow at that price one should buy them right away

 

[GT Audio Works]

When you mentioned it to me before I had no idea what that meant. Recently I was talking with a friend of mine who got a refurbed Apgee Duetta Sig, and he put in a lot in the spec - made the whole frame aluminium, took out the crossovers, tweaked them, etc etc. Then he mentioned to me that he asked for Neodymium magnets but the price quoted for him to do that was much higher because those magnets are higher quality. Then it struck me, and I mentioned to him that your speakers have that. He was like wow at that price one should buy them right away

When you were over for your demo, a lot of info was thrown at you in a short time. Its only natural to not absorb it all.
Yes, Neodymium is quite expensive, but manufacturer direct sales and low overhead production allows for these to be used and not pass a large markup along to the buyer. They allow the driver to be much lighter compared to using Ceramic 8 which is the norm.
Due to the higher magnetic field densites they generate, they also give the speaker a higher sensitivity and jump factor you don't get from ceramic.

 

[audioarcher]

When you were over for your demo, a lot of info was thrown at you in a short time. Its only natural to not absorb it all.
Yes, Neodymium is quite expensive, but manufacturer direct sales and low overhead production allows for these to be used and not pass a large markup along to the buyer. They allow the driver to be much lighter compared to using Ceramic 8 which is the norm.
Due to the higher magnetic field densites they generate, they also give the speaker a higher sensitivity and jump factor you don't get from ceramic.

Your speakers seem to have much better sensitivity than Maggies. 90db at 6 ohms vs 86db at 4 ohms for Maggies. Would like to hear them but I'm on the other coast.

 

[MrAcoustat]

Your speakers seem to have much better sensitivity than Maggies. 90db at 6 ohms vs 86db at 4 ohms for Maggies. Would like to hear them but I'm on the other coast.

Not at all the same kind of speaker// #1 Maggies are full range and GTA-2s are hybrids #2 the reason they are affordable $6,495.00 is because they are sold DIRECT if not they would be double that price.

 

[GT Audio Works]

Your speakers seem to have much better sensitivity than Maggies. 90db at 6 ohms vs 86db at 4 ohms for Maggies. Would like to hear them but I'm on the other coast.

Actually I am planning on moving to the Oregon High Desert in a few years. When I do I'll invite you over.
Would love to be on the coast, but not fond of the weather a good part of the year.
In the mean time, I hope to do a show but not sure where....RMAF would be nice.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes people perceive a higher priced component is good not knowing costs might be same even lower.

 

[audioarcher]

Actually I am planning on moving to the Oregon High Desert in a few years. When I do I'll invite you over.
Would love to be on the coast, but not fond of the weather a good part of the year.
In the mean time, I hope to do a show but not sure where....RMAF would be nice.

Oregon is not far away. We have an audio club http://audiosociety.org/ up here. We would welcome you to bring your speakers for a meeting if you have the time. RMAF is probably the best show to do right now.

 

[bonzo75]

Not at all the same kind of speaker// #1 Maggies are full range and GTA-2s are hybrids #2 the reason they are affordable $6,495.00 is because they are sold DIRECT if not they would be double that price.

Certain hybrids can be better than full range, if crossover is well integrated, they give added dynamism. I like these better than Maggies and apogees, and the unmodded Analysis. I also like these and Montis/summits better than a soundlabs ultimate that I heard (unmodded). I respond well to the woofers. The only full range I like is a properly modded Analysis. I would love to hear the Acoustats one day.

 

[MrAcoustat]

Actually I am planning on moving to the Oregon High Desert in a few years. When I do I'll invite you over.
Would love to be on the coast, but not fond of the weather a good part of the year.
In the mean time, I hope to do a show but not sure where....RMAF would be nice.

http://www.salonsonimage.com/EN/Visitors/information.html

http://www.soltanusacoustics.com/ will be there.

 

[cuntigh]

Certain hybrids can be better than full range, if crossover is well integrated, they give added dynamism. I like these better than Maggies and apogees, and the unmodded Analysis. I also like these and Montis/summits better than a soundlabs ultimate that I heard (unmodded). I respond well to the woofers. The only full range I like is a properly modded Analysis. I would love to hear the Acoustats one day.

Hi Bonzo,
I'm interested in the AA crossover mods but nobody here seems to know in what they really aremade of. Do you have some infos about that or tell me where I can ask please ?
Thanks

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Bonzo,
I'm interested in the AA crossover mods but nobody here seems to know in what they really aremade of. Do you have some infos about that or tell me where I can ask please ?
Thanks

Hi the UK and US distributor do them. I am not sure of the details. You might want to email the US distri to see if he shares it with you. As far as I know they are first order crossovers, and he has 3 levels of replacement of the crossovers components - Mundorf, Jupiter, and Duelunds, the latter being the most expensive

Both the distributors also change the wiring in the speaker - the US guy changes it to JPS labs cabling and the UK one changes it to LFD silver wiring.

You can also make the speaker active.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I just read this entire thread from the beginning, which I had never done before. This thread confirms my view and faith that, despite the heated objectivist/subjectivist debates, and my "natural" post, on other threads, this is not a nihilistic hobby devoid of common and accepted understandings and determinate, meaningful (if subjective) descriptions.

Many of the posts on this thread reflect wide agreement on subtle nuances of the characteristics of electrostatic speakers versus planar magnetic versus ribbon and versus various hybrids thereof. Putting it more simply, we understand -- and actually hear -- exactly what each other is talking about. I think this thread is successful significantly because many of the members who posted here have literally one or more decades of experience with one more of the planar speakers and technologies discussed here. Subtle differences and subjective preferences aside, most members on this thread agree that the different speaker technologies discussed on this thread are just different flavors of wonderful.

Now back to directly relevant thread comments . . .

I enjoyed MG-IIIAs for three years before choosing in 1989 between staying with Magnepan or switching to Apogee or MartinLogan. I switched to MartinLogan and have enjoyed ML speakers (now Prodigys) for the last 26 years. I have always been well aware of imperfections in ML speakers, and I understand and respect the critiques of ML hybrids. Only this year have I begin to consider alternatives to ML.

1) Through my auditioning recently of a couple of top-of-the-line dynamic driver speakers I have begun to realize the importance of truly non-resonant cabinets. I think that phenolic resin and carbon fiber cabinets are the primary reason for the high cost of Wilson and Rockport speakers versus Magnepans and MartinLogans -- and for the transparent sound quality of those conventional cone driver speakers.

When you think about the relatively flimsy wood frames of Magnepan speakers (yes, I know the 20.7 weighs about 160 pounds) and the not very inert MDF boxes housing ML woofers in the hybrid models, imagine how much better those planar speakers would sound if their sound-producing components were housed in cabinets of phenolic resin. Imagine the innards of the Magnepan MG-20.7 encased in a phenolic resin frame 79" tall and weighing 400 or more pounds. Imagine the resonances in the Magnepan wood frame which would disappear in such a phenolic resin frame. Imagine the improvement in sound quality from those resonances disappearing. Imagine the ML Summit cabinet not vibrating from the woofers inside playing music, and the woofer cabinet not vibrating the electrostatic panel.

I described in my T.H.E. Show Irvine review of the ML Neolith why I do not care for full-range electrostatic panels, and in which frequency range ML hybrids leave me wanting more impact and dynamics. See MartinLogan Neolith, post #64 http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14722-Martin-Logan-Neolith/page7&highlight=neolith

ML, in my opinion, has made a breakthrough in hybrid planar design by encasing the Neolith's panel and dynamic drivers in a rigid, phenolic resin frame and cabinet. Dynamic driver speaker companies realized a long time ago the importance of making their cabinets as inert as possible. Planar speaker companies have rested on the laurels of their technologically advanced driver designs for far too long. I do not know if Jim Winey will follow suit (I doubt he will) but I think encasing panel components in non-resonant cabinets will usher in a new level of performance from planar speakers (resulting in a weight of 375 pounds for the Neolith versus 130 pounds for the Prodigy).

2) I suspect -- I have yet to confirm in a quiet, leisurely listening audition -- that the ML Neolith is a breakthrough product A) because the phenolic resin cabinet (which looks it was made by Wilson, and I intend that to be high praise) will reduce unwanted resonances far better than the wood woofer boxes and the hard plastic panel frames of the Prodigy and Summit and Statement I and II, and B) the 12" woofer which reaches to 450 Hz (higher than any cone in ML history, including the Statement I and II) will go a long way to satisfying people (including me) who have found the ML hybrids unsatisfying dynamically in the upper bass/lower midrange frequency range.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Ron, it is easy to take out the resonance of a Logan hybrid. The elements in the woofer can be housed into a separate external box connected to the panel by wires. The crossovers are cheap and can also be upgraded. Apogees do come with special frame material and magnets at higher prices.

As for the cones, imagine how good they would sound with no cabinets

 

[Ron Resnick]

Bonzo, that is my desire for my hoped-for ML Statement E3 (or super Neolith)! (But I think that "separate external box" still needs to be made of non-resonant material like phenolic resin.)

 

[Zero000]

When you mentioned it to me before I had no idea what that meant. Recently I was talking with a friend of mine who got a refurbed Apgee Duetta Sig, and he put in a lot in the spec - made the whole frame aluminium, took out the crossovers, tweaked them, etc etc. Then he mentioned to me that he asked for Neodymium magnets but the price quoted for him to do that was much higher because those magnets are higher quality. Then it struck me, and I mentioned to him that your speakers have that. He was like wow at that price one should buy them right away

If that was me then no it wasn't the money. It was the guy making them didn't want to work with such high power magnets.

I priced a set of neodymium magnets for Duettas at £4K. The Chinese have a virtual monopoly on rare earth magnets and prices are much higher than they used to be.

 

[Zero000]

I just read this entire thread from the beginning, which I had never done before. This thread confirms my view and faith that, despite the heated objectivist/subjectivist debates, and my "natural" post, on other threads, this is not a nihilistic hobby devoid of common and accepted understandings and determinate, meaningful (if subjective) descriptions.

Many of the posts on this thread reflect wide agreement on subtle nuances of the characteristics of electrostatic speakers versus planar magnetic versus ribbon and versus various hybrids thereof. Putting it more simply, we understand -- and actually hear -- exactly what each other is talking about. I think this thread is successful significantly because many of the members who posted here have literally one or more decades of experience with one more of the planar speakers and technologies discussed here. Subtle differences and subjective preferences aside, most members on this thread agree that the different speaker technologies discussed on this thread are just different flavors of wonderful.

Now back to directly relevant thread comments . . .

I enjoyed MG-IIIAs for three years before choosing in 1989 between staying with Magnepan or switching to Apogee or MartinLogan. I switched to MartinLogan and have enjoyed ML speakers (now Prodigys) for the last 26 years. I have always been well aware of imperfections in ML speakers, and I understand and respect the critiques of ML hybrids. Only this year have I begin to consider alternatives to ML.

1) Through my auditioning recently of a couple of top-of-the-line dynamic driver speakers I have begun to realize the importance of truly non-resonant cabinets. I think that phenolic resin and carbon fiber cabinets are the primary reason for the high cost of Wilson and Rockport speakers versus Magnepans and MartinLogans -- and for the transparent sound quality of those conventional cone driver speakers.

When you think about the relatively flimsy wood frames of Magnepan speakers (yes, I know the 20.7 weighs about 160 pounds) and the not very inert MDF boxes housing ML woofers in the hybrid models, imagine how much better those planar speakers would sound if their sound-producing components were housed in cabinets of phenolic resin. Imagine the innards of the Magnepan MG-20.7 encased in a phenolic resin frame 79" tall and weighing 400 or more pounds. Imagine the resonances in the Magnepan wood frame which would disappear in such a phenolic resin frame. Imagine the improvement in sound quality from those resonances disappearing. Imagine the ML Summit cabinet not vibrating from the woofers inside playing music, and the woofer cabinet not vibrating the electrostatic panel.

I described in my T.H.E. Show Irvine review of the ML Neolith why I do not care for full-range electrostatic panels, and in which frequency range ML hybrids leave me wanting more impact and dynamics. See MartinLogan Neolith, post #64 http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14722-Martin-Logan-Neolith/page7&highlight=neolith

ML, in my opinion, has made a breakthrough in hybrid planar design by encasing the Neolith's panel and dynamic drivers in a rigid, phenolic resin frame and cabinet. Dynamic driver speaker companies realized a long time ago the importance of making their cabinets as inert as possible. Planar speaker companies have rested on the laurels of their technologically advanced driver designs for far too long. I do not know if Jim Winey will follow suit (I doubt he will) but I think encasing panel components in non-resonant cabinets will usher in a new level of performance from planar speakers (resulting in a weight of 375 pounds for the Neolith versus 130 pounds for the Prodigy).

2) I suspect -- I have yet to confirm in a quiet, leisurely listening audition -- that the ML Neolith is a breakthrough product A) because the phenolic resin cabinet (which looks it was made by Wilson, and I intend that to be high praise) will reduce unwanted resonances far better than the wood woofer boxes and the hard plastic panel frames of the Prodigy and Summit and Statement I and II, and B) the 12" woofer which reaches to 450 Hz (higher than any cone in ML history, including the Statement I and II) will go a long way to satisfying people (including me) who have found the ML hybrids unsatisfying dynamically in the upper bass/lower midrange frequency range.

Great post Ron. I thought planar frame rigidity was a real weakness in the original Apogee Duetta design.

Constructing a much more substantial Apogee Duetta type speaker proved the point.

Anyway, there is a new Apogee - the Advance 7, which has an even more rigid frame than my pair. Hearing those is going to be interesting. There is some info on the Apogee Acoustics facebook page.

 

[Zero000]

https://www.facebook.com/ApogeeAcoustics

 

[bonzo75]

Everything resonates you just need the correct frequency.
Keith.

Now you are talking shun mooks

 

[Argonaut]

Hi Ron, it is easy to take out the resonance of a Logan hybrid. The elements in the woofer can be housed into a separate external box connected to the panel by wires

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