About the "frugal" side of "expensive" sub equation: http://thehornshoppeforum.com/index.php?topic=406.0
Magico introduced the Q series subwoofers
- Thread starter Roysen
- Start date
Who cares?
Other than stereo or Steve, who on this forum would buy a sub at this price point, and stereo has already said he doesn't like subs in a stereo system.
Other than stereo or Steve, who on this forum would buy a sub at this price point, and stereo has already said he doesn't like subs in a stereo system.
About subs ...
The best bass possible in most rooms is achieved with subs ... Not an opinion a fact. that notion of subs never integrating with mains is false. Reproduction in most rooms benefits from adding subs. regardless of bass capabilities of the mains ( I know I am repeating) . Facts not opinions. Subs to mains integration is all about crossover points and bandwidth and phase... IOW you don't want your subs messing up up in frequency with your mains. You may want to keep up also with phase. All this is achieved by not necessarily expensive means, the better of these means ... the hated, dreaded, DRC used in the bass only. One additional myth that needs to be struck down: That of Class D amplifiers not being to the task.. In the bass they are most needed. they are efficient and provide extreme power at low cost, Bass for the most part requires power... A generalization true but one with substance, you need power to move a lot of air in the most linear fashion and for that CLass D is the designer's best bet. One can claim that Class A is the best for the job and all that; the point remains that a cheap , inexpensive Pro amp can do as well as other amp in the bass ... in the whole spectrum? A very different case, in the bass I repeat... in bass Class D are likely the best one can do. As usual the audiophiles will resist and then warm to it. Multi-subs are making inroad in Audiophile circles. Von Scheikert makes such a speaker system and other will follow.
Now concerning the extreme cost of the Magico speakers. Again the audiophiles mentality of more money = better sound is as usual ( and again) at play . And that will not change. Telling the buyer how expensive it is to product their ware is a good marketing strategy, similar to the one used by watchmakers... You know, great watches entirely made by hands; for the purpose of telling time these are bettered by Casio Quartz, regularly, second after second
.. if it jewelry one is after then the expensively watch may look better or satisfy more... This could be the same here. I would like to see studies pointing to the fact that Aluminum is the most suitable material for subs. So far aside from Magico claims (remember , I am a fan of their speakers and would gladly acquire them) I don't see why it has to be Alu in the subs ... It makes great marketing material but the proof is in the sound. And the physics and psycho-acoustics of bass reproduction in a room show that more subs are better than one. and more translate in more linear and more extended output both in magnitude (SPL) and reach (lowest frequencies attainable), while lowering distortion. Let's suppose for the sake of Argument a person wanting to use ,say, 4 Magico $30,000 subs for a nice 120 K of subs... Do you really think that 16 (!!) Paradigm sub 2 or 8 (!!) JL Audio Gotham with a serious parametric EQ (Digital preferred) wouldn't do a better job if the goal is extension, integration with the mains and low THD? Granted, the logistics then wouldn't be simple but if you have that much money to spend on subs ... With the same mains, I believe one can achieve the same or even better results with 8 Seaton Submersive. at 1/5 of that price ... thus money left for a sublime room treatment and construction...
Magico makes them and they will sell a few to high heeled , extremely rich individuals .. And the tide will recede and they will fall by the wayside. The Krell was likely a great sub , one has to wonder why it didn't survive all that well.. Could it be that it was regularly bettered by more pedestrian-priced designs? Did hear the Wilson XS and for all its girth and price, The Gotham surpassed it .. Heard them in same room and same system ... And in that particular system, integration with stellar (and pricey) mains wasn't a problem ... Ask the owners if you will , he downsized to smaller JL Audio subs with the same mains and electronics and seem to be happier (Room has something too, to do with the elevated sense of happiness, methinks )
The best bass possible in most rooms is achieved with subs ... Not an opinion a fact. that notion of subs never integrating with mains is false. Reproduction in most rooms benefits from adding subs. regardless of bass capabilities of the mains ( I know I am repeating) . Facts not opinions. Subs to mains integration is all about crossover points and bandwidth and phase... IOW you don't want your subs messing up up in frequency with your mains. You may want to keep up also with phase. All this is achieved by not necessarily expensive means, the better of these means ... the hated, dreaded, DRC used in the bass only. One additional myth that needs to be struck down: That of Class D amplifiers not being to the task.. In the bass they are most needed. they are efficient and provide extreme power at low cost, Bass for the most part requires power... A generalization true but one with substance, you need power to move a lot of air in the most linear fashion and for that CLass D is the designer's best bet. One can claim that Class A is the best for the job and all that; the point remains that a cheap , inexpensive Pro amp can do as well as other amp in the bass ... in the whole spectrum? A very different case, in the bass I repeat... in bass Class D are likely the best one can do. As usual the audiophiles will resist and then warm to it. Multi-subs are making inroad in Audiophile circles. Von Scheikert makes such a speaker system and other will follow.
Now concerning the extreme cost of the Magico speakers. Again the audiophiles mentality of more money = better sound is as usual ( and again) at play . And that will not change. Telling the buyer how expensive it is to product their ware is a good marketing strategy, similar to the one used by watchmakers... You know, great watches entirely made by hands; for the purpose of telling time these are bettered by Casio Quartz, regularly, second after second
.. if it jewelry one is after then the expensively watch may look better or satisfy more... This could be the same here. I would like to see studies pointing to the fact that Aluminum is the most suitable material for subs. So far aside from Magico claims (remember , I am a fan of their speakers and would gladly acquire them) I don't see why it has to be Alu in the subs ... It makes great marketing material but the proof is in the sound. And the physics and psycho-acoustics of bass reproduction in a room show that more subs are better than one. and more translate in more linear and more extended output both in magnitude (SPL) and reach (lowest frequencies attainable), while lowering distortion. Let's suppose for the sake of Argument a person wanting to use ,say, 4 Magico $30,000 subs for a nice 120 K of subs... Do you really think that 16 (!!) Paradigm sub 2 or 8 (!!) JL Audio Gotham with a serious parametric EQ (Digital preferred) wouldn't do a better job if the goal is extension, integration with the mains and low THD? Granted, the logistics then wouldn't be simple but if you have that much money to spend on subs ... With the same mains, I believe one can achieve the same or even better results with 8 Seaton Submersive. at 1/5 of that price ... thus money left for a sublime room treatment and construction...Magico makes them and they will sell a few to high heeled , extremely rich individuals .. And the tide will recede and they will fall by the wayside. The Krell was likely a great sub , one has to wonder why it didn't survive all that well.. Could it be that it was regularly bettered by more pedestrian-priced designs? Did hear the Wilson XS and for all its girth and price, The Gotham surpassed it .. Heard them in same room and same system ... And in that particular system, integration with stellar (and pricey) mains wasn't a problem ... Ask the owners if you will , he downsized to smaller JL Audio subs with the same mains and electronics and seem to be happier (Room has something too, to do with the elevated sense of happiness, methinks
)
Last edited:
One sub is almost impossible to integrate. Two with a little practice and an RTA is a snap. I skipped 3,4,5 and 6. Most I've done in one room at one time is 7. The only thing difficult was running around.
Well putting the subs in columns makes it easier. On each side if you want to remain in the 2-channel mode.. I favor asymmetric placement of subs a la Geddes.
AFAIK there is no Magico speaker with 18" woofer, or multiple smaller drivers able to compete in terms of output and extension with this sub.
Who said you can't use two ? Or 3, 4 or 5 ?
Most of US would probably go for cheaper designs, but that is not the point. I belive Alon Wolf wanted to create a non plus ultra design, for audiofiles with rooms big enough and pockets deep enough, not to care about the cost. I bet he will sell more than a few.
Wilson has been selling their Thor designs for a quite a few years now (I belive they are also around $30k) and those don't even have a built in amp. Yet - noone complains or questions those.
Elberoth
Respect your opinion. I do however believe that the point is not about how expensive a product is but how well it performs. If the goal is prestige or status , I'll bow out of the discussion. If it is getting the best performance for a given amount of money expenditure, it is to be proven that these 30K subs are worth their weight in ...well ... Aluminum ... I contend that lesser priced designs could do as well .. I need to be shown that my reasoning/POV is wrong, in the meantime, this looks to me like one more expensive product aimed at those with the wherewithal to spend a lot.
You may have a noticed I am a Magico fan. I do however practice this perspective for any product: It must beats the competition in performance metrics not those of exclusivity, prestige or status. Those may make someone happy but do not help reproduce music any better, which is what matters to me.
What you say is very true, but then again - I'm not sure the single subwoofer configuration is actually recommended by Magico (or any installers for that matter).
I belive it will shine if the setups of those lucky few, who will be able to afford multiple of those.
I belive it will shine if the setups of those lucky few, who will be able to afford multiple of those.
What is the best bass is still open to discussion. Although I have no significant experience with the type of subs that are being debated, I have read very different opinions from manufacturers and owners of great systems and I do not believe that we can have one solution that is equally good in all aspects and pleases everyone.
One think seems impressive in the Magico subs specification - “136dB of sound pressure level with less than 1% total harmonic distortion at 20Hz.” As Jeff said - That’s just crazy. And I must add I hope my neighbors never get even a single one!
Anyway, what means 30k or 60k if you have got a pair of speakers costing 200k and the matching system? If I owned the Q7 and wanted more bass I would happily pay this price just to have the Alon Wolf seal of approval. If he designed the Q7 and the Magico Ultimate he must know something about speaker design. All IMHO.
One think seems impressive in the Magico subs specification - “136dB of sound pressure level with less than 1% total harmonic distortion at 20Hz.” As Jeff said - That’s just crazy. And I must add I hope my neighbors never get even a single one!
Anyway, what means 30k or 60k if you have got a pair of speakers costing 200k and the matching system?
If I owned the Q7 and wanted more bass I would happily pay this price just to have the Alon Wolf seal of approval. If he designed the Q7 and the Magico Ultimate he must know something about speaker design. All IMHO.“136dB of sound pressure level with less than 1% total harmonic distortion at 20Hz” sounds almost impossible to me. I would like to see some measurements that would back that up (unless it is a typo).
One thing is clear though - even with much smaller, 'real life' SPLs, this subwoofer will give you much less THD than your main speakers - whatever they are.
To give you a better idea - Wilson Maxx 3 already has 3% THD @ 20Hz at 106 dB - and that is already considered a stellar performance.
One thing is clear though - even with much smaller, 'real life' SPLs, this subwoofer will give you much less THD than your main speakers - whatever they are.
To give you a better idea - Wilson Maxx 3 already has 3% THD @ 20Hz at 106 dB - and that is already considered a stellar performance.
It also sounded to good to me, although they use a 8000 W amplifier and perhaps some type of servo systems. Anyway I just quoted Jeff, not Magico. Perhaps it is a typo as you say.
I have two F113. Probably the best "cheap" sub on the market. They are good enough for home theater, but yes, they are too weak to pair with my Q1. I tried and did lose transparency.
And it is not a problem with bass response of my room, which is amazing. If I measure the sub (of course without frequency correction) at my listening position, this is what I get: +-3dB down to 20Hz. If I move the listening position 1 or 2 meters, same results (this is because of the numerous Helmholtz resonators I have built in, room nodes are gone).
Would two Q-sub fit the bill? I don't know, but I assume that if Alon Wolf finally decides to launch a sub, it really must be something special. The 1% THD at 136db for the Qsub-18 are crazy. Imagine putting two Qsub-18 in a room, in term of membrane surface, it is equivalent to 8 of my F113: scary!
I will probably never know because the Q1 is replaced by my Ultimate and the Ultimate don't need subs.
By the way, the Qsub-15 is using the same drivers as the bass drivers in my Ultimate. Actually this driver was originally developed for the Ultimate 3, so yes, it is something really special.
The Maxx3 is using a 13" in the bass. this means 4 times less membrane surface than the two 18" of the Qsub18... so for sure I expect something much better with the Qsub.
About subs ...
The best bass possible in most rooms is achieved with subs ... Not an opinion a fact. that notion of subs never integrating with mains is false. Reproduction in most rooms benefits from adding subs. regardless of bass capabilities of the mains ( I know I am repeating) . Facts not opinions. Subs to mains integration is all about crossover points and bandwidth and phase... IOW you don't want your subs messing up up in frequency with your mains. You may want to keep up also with phase. All this is achieved by not necessarily expensive means, the better of these means ... the hated, dreaded, DRC used in the bass only. One additional myth that needs to be struck down: That of Class D amplifiers not being to the task.. In the bass they are most needed. they are efficient and provide extreme power at low cost, Bass for the most part requires power... A generalization true but one with substance, you need power to move a lot of air in the most linear fashion and for that CLass D is the designer's best bet. One can claim that Class A is the best for the job and all that; the point remains that a cheap , inexpensive Pro amp can do as well as other amp in the bass ... in the whole spectrum? A very different case, in the bass I repeat... in bass Class D are likely the best one can do. As usual the audiophiles will resist and then warm to it. Multi-subs are making inroad in Audiophile circles. Von Scheikert makes such a speaker system and other will follow.
Now concerning the extreme cost of the Magico speakers. Again the audiophiles mentality of more money = better sound is as usual ( and again) at play . And that will not change. Telling the buyer how expensive it is to product their ware is a good marketing strategy, similar to the one used by watchmakers... You know, great watches entirely made by hands; for the purpose of telling time these are bettered by Casio Quartz, regularly, second after second
Magico makes them and they will sell a few to high heeled , extremely rich individuals .. And the tide will recede and they will fall by the wayside. The Krell was likely a great sub , one has to wonder why it didn't survive all that well.. Could it be that it was regularly bettered by more pedestrian-priced designs? Did hear the Wilson XS and for all its girth and price, The Gotham surpassed it .. Heard them in same room and same system ... And in that particular system, integration with stellar (and pricey) mains wasn't a problem ... Ask the owners if you will , he downsized to smaller JL Audio subs with the same mains and electronics and seem to be happier (Room has something too, to do with the elevated sense of happiness, methinks
I agree 100% and couldn't have said it any better.
I agree with Stereo.
I had a pair of f113's in my system back when I was doing multi-channel for music only. it's a great subwoofer. OTOH it was not fast enough to properly integrate with my MM3's. the f113 is a long throw 13" driver. large scale speaker systems with more driver area and more drivers have less excursion for same SPL's and are faster. the f112 and f110 are faster than the f113 too (but don't go as deep). these are all fantastic products but made to a price point.
with my MM7's and 4 15" drivers per side plus 4 11" woofers per side there is minimal excursion and therefore less distortion and more ease. that is one extreme. the other is a single smaller driver in a subwoofer made to a price point.
I know that is an oversimplification but it does come down to that.
when integrating f113's into a high performance system with full range speakers they need to be used carefully so as not to step on the full range speaker. it can be done. but until one has the opportunity to hear a higher performance subwoofer (faster) one won't know what they are missing.
I guess I will forever be in the dark Mike as I remain eternally content with mine.
I do agree however with your last statement. It took me close to 3 months to get mine integrated in my room.
I do agree however with your last statement. It took me close to 3 months to get mine integrated in my room.
I think that extension and low THD are easy to get and check at the reasonable sound levels most of us usually have in our rooms, but the main issue is as you point - integration with the system. How do we check it?
And so will the aforementioned subs in similar system. For the price, I continue to contend that one can do better with current sane-priced and not aluminum-clad commercial subwoofers... There are others and there is the DIY/Custom route which I believe can provide even better results ....
.........
I would like to see independent measurements for the 136 dB at less than 1% THD .. These are beyond extraordinary thus my (slight) skepticism.
Pardon me Dan but again did someone pee in your grape nuts again this morning?
I would never buy a sub for that amount of money period!!! Nor would I only buy just one sub
FWIW Dan before you open mouth and insert foot you should do your research as I own a pair of JLAudio Fathom subs.
Oh and one last thing to you Dan and also to stereo, FWIW, I owned a single Wilson XS sub which I had in my system before I heard the JL Audio Gotham at which point I sold the XS (and you all know I am a Wilson fan) and bought a pair of Gothams. I sold these when I moved and built a smaller room and now own a pair of Fathom subs
So once again Dan I suggest you wake up on the correct side of the bed because you are starting to show the Dan that we sometimes know here and often gets you into trouble
I suggest you take a deep breath and think before you post
Mahalo
I am currently considering an offer for a pair of the QSub-18 to pair with my Q7. The reason being that I have lived with semi-active speakers from Audio Physic pair with their subwoofers for a long time before I decided to jump over to the Magico Q7. The Audio Physic speakers and their subwoofers extend frequency response down to below 10Hz and although not much information on the recordings have important musical information in this frequency range, I love the live phyhsical feeling and scale of soundstaging a well integrated pair of subwoofers can give.
I am however waiting for a response from Alon Wolf on what adjustments the QSub-18 has to be able to integrate into the room and with the main speakers.
It could be that a pair of the QSub-15 is more adequte but this will be decided when the Q7 is install by Alon Wolf or Yair Tammam in my home in about a month from now.
Last edited:
Similar threads
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |