LampizatOr Horizon - Tube Rolling Paradise

[Golum]

It's not over driving my preamp

They are all very different and diff in terms how much input signal they can handle without getting into distorsion. I can guarantee that mine can handle massively more than even yours

 

[Steve Williams]

Im not talking about yours. Im talking about mine. I find 63 is where I can hear and feel the signal. Turning it to 62 suddenly leaves the sound somewhat leaner and it is audible to me

 

[Golum]

I exactly know what you are saying but what you are doing is not universaly applicable across the board hence for some in order to use high gain tubes with their preamps they need to reduce the output of the H.

 

[dminches]

Plus, some of us use the horizon in balanced mode which creates even more gain.

 

[John T]

In my system the high out tubes (and I tried several) just didn't work. Attempting to compensate with the H destroyed the balance of the system. I'm not technically versed enough to explain why but it was obvious with how things sounded. So, I resigned to just using the tubes that sound good to me, in my system, without adjusting the volume on the H. With the high out put tubes, I was constantly adjusting. Certain recordings, familiar pieces of music were always a juggling act...

 

[Steve Williams]

I exactly know what you are saying but what you are doing is not universaly applicable across the board hence for some in order to use high gain tubes with their preamps they need to reduce the output of the H.

totally understood.

 

[Moladiego]

In my system the high out tubes (and I tried several) just didn't work. Attempting to compensate with the H destroyed the balance of the system. I'm not technically versed enough to explain why but it was obvious with how things sounded. So, I resigned to just using the tubes that sound good to me, in my system, without adjusting the volume on the H. With the high out put tubes, I was constantly adjusting. Certain recordings, familiar pieces of music were always a juggling act...

Appreciate it. It's always personal to one's system and or preference. In my case, the new tubes leave the old tubes (Mullard ECC32/KT170 etc.) in the dust for lifting several layers of veil. I could easily leave the Horizon's VC at 59 (yes, even that makes an audible improvement to 63 bypass) without any fuss. But sometimes, an album may come across as a bit too bright on top or too lumpy on the bottom; that's when the fine tuning of the interplay of the 2 VCs would be helpful to some extent. Ultimately, it is the recording quality that controls. With an album like this (see photo), it sounds good practically on any system. (I am yet to hear a hi-res album, being it 24/192 or DSD, which is as good as this recording (Red Book format) made in the Dallas Symphony Hall in 1993.)

 

[Sampajanna]

Or, like me, you could just leave the preamp and use the Horizon direct…. Many paths, so many paths….

 

[Tuckia]

I’m running an in between solution to active pre or direct to dac with a silver AVC. I’ve tried direct. I’ve tried active (Misho Myronov Wooden Pre). This is my take away.

Since my AVC can’t overload etc. I can say that 63 sounds better than 62. 63 sounds like 63. 62 to 01 sounds the same.

The AVC sounds a bit better than direct. Cleaner. More dynamic. It doesn’t lose anything compared to direct. This is into a 300b SET with 100k input impedance.

The active pre lost significant inner detail compared to direct. It had a little more low end weight. Less low end definition. A little more perceived permanent stage width, like a sameness coloration. I couldn’t live with the compromises.

I listen at low levels with 99db sensitive speakers. I have way too much system gain even with the 300b amp. This is with 6f8g triodes. It’s worse with ECC32. I will not try tubes with higher gain. Verboten. I wish I could drive the speakers straight off the AVC. I have a pile of SS amps. Volume levels started at “scream“ running direct. With the AVC I can throttle it down to listenable, but at 50 on the H and 1 on the AVC. 63 is not possible.

I’m still intrigued with a nice single stage DHT pre with only 6db of gain, but I know that the selection of workable amps would be further limited, but I know who makes them

 

[AudioHR]

I exactly know what you are saying but what you are doing is not universaly applicable across the board hence for some in order to use high gain tubes with their preamps they need to reduce the output of the H.

Just acquainting myself with this post. Your systems are at least the the next level up from mine but I think I recognize the problem. I would offer what I have experienced , so for your consideration , if I am off base then just tell me to bugger off. Nicely please

So the issue seems to be that although your preamp sounds best at a certain volume setting the tubes that offer the best sound in the DAC have to much gain and you can't use the preamp setting you would otherwise desire.

Having had a similar problem I would offer the following. Perhaps the problem resides with your amplifiers? If your amplifiers allowed you to control the gain you could arguably have the best of both worlds. Although out of vogue I think a quality amp should have gain/volume controls. Especially for those of us that run both digital and analogue sources.

 

[John T]

Just acquainting myself with this post. Your systems are at least the the next level up from mine but I think I recognize the problem. I would offer what I have experienced , so for your consideration , if I am off base then just tell me to bugger off. Nicely please

So the issue seems to be that although your preamp sounds best at a certain volume setting the tubes that offer the best sound in the DAC have to much gain and you can't use the preamp setting you would otherwise desire.

Having had a similar problem I would offer the following. Perhaps the problem resides with your amplifiers? If your amplifiers allowed you to control the gain you could arguably have the best of both worlds. Although out of vogue I think a quality amp should have gain/volume controls. Especially for those of us that run both digital and analogue sources.

Agreed. Amplification plays a huge role with this situation....

 

[Golum]

, if I am off base then just tell me to bugger off. Nicely please

Thanks for chiming in and I would never ever told you what you wrote above. Experience sharing IS important and I would assume we are all here due to that.

So the issue seems to be that although your preamp sounds best at a certain volume setting the tubes that offer the best sound in the DAC have to much gain and you can't use the preamp setting you would otherwise desire.

No no not really - it sounds exceptional across the board except due to topology it has a small gain and hence if I want to achieve high SPL i need to place the vol pot to lets say 15h position - which in general is no issue except in my head as I was my entire life used to listen to the music in the range of pot from 21 to 24h. But with high gain tubes like c3gS I'm more or less in the zone where I was used to be. Nothing more than that.

Having had a similar problem I would offer the following. Perhaps the problem resides with your amplifiers? If your amplifiers allowed you to control the gain you could arguably have the best of both worlds. Although out of vogue I think a quality amp should have gain/volume controls. Especially for those of us that run both digital and analogue sources.

Would be great to have but Nagra VPA does not have this cool option.

Stay well;
G

 

[Steve Williams]

No no not really - it sounds exceptional across the board except due to topology it has a small gain and hence if I want to achieve high SPL i need to place the vol pot to lets say 15h position - which in general is no issue except in my head as I was my entire life used to listen to the music in the range of pot from 21 to 24h. But with high gain tubes like c3gS I'm more or less in the zone where I was used to be. Nothing more than that.

Totally agree. To me it was the dawn of a new paradigm in my system. Prior to using these high output tubes, my prep gain control was usually somewhere between the 7and 8th detente position while playing the H at 63. Presently to continue playing the H at 63 my preamp has settled into the 5th preamp gain position.

To me having the entire signal is paramount to derive full benefit from my preamp. I can hear loss of detail and dynamics when I lower the gain to 62.For me and my ears in my system, I always have the H at 63 and have dialed back the gain on my preamp from 8 to 5. Each switch in gain position is an 0.3 db gain or loss

 

[AudioHR]

Totally agree. To me it was the dawn of a new paradigm in my system. Prior to using these high output tubes, my prep gain control was usually somewhere between the 7and 8th detente position while playing the H at 63. Presently to continue playing the H at 63 my preamp has settled into the 5th preamp gain position.

To me having the entire signal is paramount to derive full benefit from my preamp. I can hear loss of detail and dynamics when I lower the gain to 62.For me and my ears in my system, I always have the H at 63 and have dialed back the gain on my preamp from 8 to 5. Each switch in gain position is an 0.3 db gain or loss

I was getting the impression that when you set the Horizon at your preferred setting of 63 you were dissatisfied with having to dial back the gain on your preamp. Perhaps I misunderstood.

I have found over the years that every preamp volume control I have used has had a sweet spot range where everything sounded best. That is why I was saying it is nice and sometimes necessary to have control of the gain at the amplifier.

As an example. When I first got my Shindo Monbrison the amp I was using did not have gain pots. I found especially on digital there was to much gain forcing me to set the Monbrison preamp to a roughly 9 o'clock position. At this position It was very difficult to find a sweet spot, the sound was either to soft or to aggressive to my ear. I purchased a Decware Zen Triode amp which has a gain pot which allowed me to set the preamp at 11 o'clock for a comfortable listening volume . At this setting the volume control gives me a larger sweet spot range, 10 to 1 o'clock, where everything sounds lovely. I can now dial in the best sounding volume for both streamed content and vinyl. I also have a Shindo Cortese 300b which also has gain controls and I find the same thing.

 

[Steve Williams]

I was getting the impression that when you set the Horizon at your preferred setting of 63 you were dissatisfied with having to dial back the gain on your preamp. Perhaps I misunderstood.

I have found over the years that every preamp volume control I have used has had a sweet spot range where everything sounded best. That is why I was saying it is nice and sometimes necessary to have control of the gain at the amplifier.

As an example. When I first got my Shindo Monbrison the amp I was using did not have gain pots. I found especially on digital there was to much gain forcing me to set the Monbrison preamp to a roughly 9 o'clock position. At this position It was very difficult to find a sweet spot, the sound was either to soft or to aggressive to my ear. I purchased a Decware Zen Triode amp which has a gain pot which allowed me to set the preamp at 11 o'clock for a comfortable listening volume . At this setting the volume control gives me a larger sweet spot range, 10 to 1 o'clock, where everything sounds lovely. I can now dial in the best sounding volume for both streamed content and vinyl. I also have a Shindo Cortese 300b which also has gain controls and I find the same thing.

No….. I hated turning down the gain on the VC of the Horizon. My preamp is now at its sweet spot

 

[AudioHR]

Thanks for chiming in and I would never ever told you what you wrote above. Experience sharing IS important and I would assume we are all here due to that.

No no not really - it sounds exceptional across the board except due to topology it has a small gain and hence if I want to achieve high SPL i need to place the vol pot to lets say 15h position - which in general is no issue except in my head as I was my entire life used to listen to the music in the range of pot from 21 to 24h. But with high gain tubes like c3gS I'm more or less in the zone where I was used to be. Nothing more than that.

Would be great to have but Nagra VPA does not have this cool option.

Stay well;
G

Thank you for the nice response. My winking emoji didn't work so know that my first comment was tongue in cheek.

My other comments were not so much about your system but your response to Steve's comments. I assumed incorrectly that he wasn't entirely comfortable with dialling his preamp back.

Cheers
Mike

 

[Golum]

As an example. When I first got my Shindo Monbrison the amp I was using did not have gain pots. I found especially on digital there was to much gain forcing me to set the Monbrison preamp to a roughly 9 o'clock position. At this position It was very difficult to find a sweet spot, the sound was either to soft or to aggressive to my ear. I purchased a Decware Zen Triode amp which has a gain pot which allowed me to set the preamp at 11 o'clock for a comfortable listening volume . At this setting the volume control gives me a larger sweet spot range, 10 to 1 o'clock, where everything sounds lovely. I can now dial in the best sounding volume for both streamed content and vinyl. I also have a Shindo Cortese 300b which also has gain controls and I find the same thing.

Huh Shindo...
Bit off topic....my first experience with Shindo was in Yongsan electronics mall in Seoul which is sort of like Akihabara in Tokyo. Hundreds of HiFi stores packed with vintage and state of the art stuff with dedicated demo or not dedicated demo rooms.
I'm approaching a vintage store in its core and something just draws me in...I sit to listen and I swore to my kids i shed a tear on what I was hearing.
Asked the store owner what it was playing and he goes Shindo pre and some Shindo power amps with el34 driving Altec 604b speakers...could not forget that experiance for a while…just amazing.
I'll dig a pic somewhere and post...

 

[AudioHR]

Huh Shindo...
Bit off topic....my first experience with Shindo was in Yongsan electronics mall in Seoul which is sort of like Akihabara in Tokyo. Hundreds of HiFi stores packed with vintage and state of the art stuff with dedicated demo or not dedicated demo rooms.
I'm approaching a vintage store in its core and something just draws me in...I sit to listen and I swore to my kids i shed a tear on what I was hearing.
Asked the store owner what it was playing and he goes Shindo pre and some Shindo power amps with el34 driving Altec 604b speakers...could not forget that experiance for a while…just amazing.
I'll dig a pic somewhere and post...

Wow that's an amazing store! I bet that was quite the experience.

Glad you enjoyed the music. Shindo is interesting equipment for sure!

 

[wokeuptobose]

Thanks again everyone for this discussion. It's great to have others decribe what I heard but did not understand! I heard the improvment from 6X to 63. I knew it was a pass through threshold, but I thought something might be wrong with my H.
I also have a volume control in ROON, my Grimm MU1 streamer, and the H. I knew I heard better and worse combinations, but have yet to explore the "sweet spot" of the three. Thank you all for your comments, you are a great help to me!

 

[rspyder]

Hello my What's Best Fellows. I'm asking the following question in this thread because I couldn't find a technical forum on the Horizon DAC and because I consider many of you to be technically strong audiophiles (certainly more expert than I am). Of course, I would invite Lukasz' input as the best technical expert on all things Lampi DAC.

First, some background to my question. As I understand it, the Horizon's XLR inputs and outputs are fully balanced, including the output tube circuit (LC - positive, RC - positive, LC - negative and RC - negative). But I noticed from the WBF discussions that some Horizon, Pacific and presumably Poseidon owners operate their DACs single-ended (i.e. with 2 output tubes).

Question: For those that do, is that because a DHT (e.g. 300B, 245, 845) operated in single-end mode creates more even-order harmonics. However, if DHTs are operated in balanced mode (i.e. 2 pairs) the even-order harmonics of the DHT stage are mostly eliminated by the attendant odd-order harmonics generated by the parallel circuit?

In short, do the Lampi DACs sound better operated in single-ended mode? I assume that given Lukasz' no-stone-unturned approach to his DACs, and the Horizon in particular, he designed the balanced circuit to eliminate/mitigate odd-order harmonics from 2-pairs of DHTs.

Thanks,

Ray