" Kind Of Blue" what is the Best...

[Gary D]

Recording of this classic? I see many mediums sacd,redbook cd,45rpm vinyl and 180 & 200 gram vinyl.
There is also 2 track tape and 4 track tape which is the best for sound and closest to the actual recording master.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You'd have to ask someone who's heard the original master what's closest, but I've had the original vinyl, the basic redbook CD and the 40th (?) Anniversary remaster. Not a bad one in the batch. The recording itself has a couple of flaws, but overall is very good and the mastering has never been boogered, to my knowledge. This is one where I wouldn't sweat much over getting the definitive version. Absolutely love your avatar, by the way.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

Gary, that's a great question. I own the original Six eye mono, the Six eye stereo, the red book CD ( two versions, the Columbia Jazz masterpiece version and the Columbia Legacy version re-mastered by Michael Cuscuna) , the SACD and the re-issue on 180 gram vinyl. IMHO, the order of preference from best to worst is: The Six eye mono, The re-issue on 180 gram vinyl, the Six eye Stereo, The Legacy redbook, the SACD, and last the masterpiece redbook. I have not heard the 200 gram version nor the R to R's.

 

[garylkoh]

The tape machine used for the original master was running slow, so if you played it back on a correctly functioning machine, it would sound too fast. The pitch would be slightly off. Most of the issues are like that.

Classic Records has a reissue with a bonus disc that has the corrected speed. It also has a 45rpm of Flamenco Sketches. IMHO that is the one to get. I believe there is also a SACD with the corrected speed.

 

[jazdoc]

I agree that for vinyl, an original pressing mono 6-eye is the way to go.

IME, the Columbia mono 6 eye jazz recording of the late 1950's to early 1960's are amongst the technically best soudning jazz recordings ever.

 

[RBFC]

The corrected-speed SACD is terrific. I used to have an excellent condition 6-eye stereo LP of this and the SACD holds up very well.

Lee

 

[microstrip]

I agree that for vinyl, an original pressing mono 6-eye is the way to go.

IME, the Columbia mono 6 eye jazz recording of the late 1950's to early 1960's are amongst the technically best soudning jazz recordings ever.

Jazdoc,
What are the aspects that make consider that a mono recording is better than a stereo version?

 

[jazdoc]

Jazdoc,
What are the aspects that make consider that a mono recording is better than a stereo version?

Let me preface my answer by stating that I really like well recorded mono and react strongly to unnatural stereo effects, i.e. drummer with 18' wingspan drumming in both speakers. Additionally, many records in the day were recorded in mono with stereo version as an afterthought. Stereo was the new technology and the mono recording techniques had been pefected over 20+ years. This not only includes jazz but pop/rock well. The Beatle's engineer, Geoffry Emrick does a great job describing this in his book "Here, There, Everywhere". Basically, the artists and people in the studio optimized recordings for mono. In that spirit, I had a custom input designed into my phono stage specifically optimized for mono.

With THAT out of the way...I hear richer tone and deeper and more articulate bass. Cymbals snap and the unique sound of sticks hitting the drumhead are more realistic. The breathiness of Miles' playing seems much more realistic. Despite the lack of left/right information, I hear better front-to-back depth with this mono recording.

As is often the case, listening to mono with a good mono cartridge (I use the Miyajima Premium BE) decreases playback noise. Many older mono records have been played and damaged by stereo cartridges. A dedicated mono cartridge has no vertical degree of freedom within the groove (where the right and left encoding is embedded) and any groove damage in the vertical plane is not transmitted down the audio chain. I've picked up some amazing collectible VG and VG+ vinyl on the cheap that sounds M- with my mono set-up. I've listened to many mono LPs with stereo cartridges on an identical Talea tonearm and the majority of the time I prefer the dedicated mono system. To date, I only own one mono record that I prefer to hear with a stereo cartridge.

I have many Columbia recordings from this period in both stereo and mono and strongly prefer the mono. Some of these titles include:

"What Is There To Say" Gerry Mulligan
"Mingus, Ah Um" Charles Mingus
"Round About Midnight" and "Milestones" Miles Davis

I also strongly prefer Contemporary and Impulse monos but have had mixed results with Prestige, Atlantic and Argo. I only own a couple of original Blue Note monos and they are nothing special sonically. OTOH, the MusicMatters monos are simply spectacular. The Gil Melle, Hank Mobleys, Kenny Dorham and Louis Smith mono reissues are standouts.

BTW, I have a couple of the Parlophone Beatles LPs and to my ears, this is by far the best (and the intended) way to hear the Beatles.

Now all this may change once I put the Benz LPS on the new Telos arm while the Miyajima stays on a Talea II

 

[RBFC]

I would love for one of our resident cartridge experts to offer a scientific-based explanation of why the equivalent mono and stereo LPs produce better sound quality from the mono version, and what is happening in the groove/stylus interface that makes it so. The electrical construction of the cartridge may also play a part....

Lee

 

[RogerD]

I don't want to hijack my brother's thread but I found this and I don't know if this interview is well known. It concerns the most famous speed issue on the side one of Kind of Blue. I found Teo Macero's interview fascinating.

"And then we had a lot of special equipment that I had CBS invent for me. I would say, “Look it, I have a crazy idea in my head. I want to be able to change the pitch, change the speed.” They said, “Teo, we can’t do that. We hear they’re working on that in Europe.” And I said, “But I want to move that beat, just off, so that if we slow it down just a little bit it will put it into the right, as the guys now say, pocket. That was a lot of favorite expressions of these guys, put it in the pocket. So, what I would do, I would put some tape around the cap stand and slow it down just enough to give it a better groove. Or, if I didn’t like what he was doing, on a couple of records, I’d take the trumpet out completely. I’d go in the vault and I’d find little pieces here and there and I’d cut it, splice it, and make a little loop and I would lay it right back into the track. Now, I did this so frequently with Miles that it was like second nature for me because I didn’t have to worry about anything because I knew that there was one record that we did with, Kind of Blue. You’re all familiar with that. Well, that record came out and was a huge success. Much later, maybe about ten years later somebody said, one of the trumpet players who happened to come to the studio said, “I can’t play with this thing because it’s just off pitch.” “Aw,” I said, “Really?” Laughs.

They made such a big issue out of it, I said, “Look it, what they hell do I care? I couldn’t care less!” I said, “If Gil Evans, who is the daddy of them all. And Miles, who made it, and a few of the musicians and myself, we like it. Then it must be right.” He said, “But you know, the tape is regular speed.” I said, “Look it, I have no control about that.” They said, “Well we’re going to change it.” And they changed it. "

http://www.artistshousemusic.org/vid...ing+and+mixing

 

[garylkoh]

Thanks, Roger. That is fascinating. I didn't know that they messed with the speed to give it a better groove. I guess it would make sense that pace would be more important to pitch.

Your link didn't get to the right place, but I found it:
http://www.artistshousemusic.org/videos/teo+macero+on+the+arts+of+editing+and+mixing

 

[RogerD]

Thanks, Roger. That is fascinating. I didn't know that they messed with the speed to give it a better groove. I guess it would make sense that pace would be more important to pitch.

Your link didn't get to the right place, but I found it:
http://www.artistshousemusic.org/videos/teo+macero+on+the+arts+of+editing+and+mixing

Thanks Gary,

I had read a long time ago that Miles liked or wanted the pitch that way. All the talk how the tape recorder was off speed on the original masters and that it was fixed on the re issues,well if I follow Teo Macero correctly the slow speed was intentional. I also thought Macero's comment on how Miles trumpet "came at you" was a revelation. That has always been one of the best parts of Kind of Blue for me,just amazing what Mr Macero talks about.

 

[microstrip]

Let me preface my answer by stating that I really like well recorded mono and react strongly to unnatural stereo effects ,i.e. drummer with 18' wingspan drumming in both speakers. (...)
Now all this may change once I put the Benz LPS on the new Telos arm while the Miyajima stays on a Talea II

Thanks Jazdoc. Now I see why people have two turntables or turntables with two arms ...

 

[mep]

I have a 15 ips 2 track tape of KOB and I can't imagine there is much out there that is better. The distortion flaws caused by overloading the mikes in a a couple of spots is a bummer though. And they are on every version of KOB I have ever heard.

 

[Nevillekapadia]

I was fortunate enough to lay my hands on a 45rpm -pressed single side -4 LP sealed copy. Played it once and recorded it straight in 2xDSD for repeated playback on my Korg. Probably the most musical bass notes I have ever heard from any version. And instrument sizing is perfect.
Though 'mep' your version must be terrific too, and you are right -overloading of the mikes do show up.

 

[NorthStar]

Recording of this classic? I see many mediums sacd,redbook cd,45rpm vinyl and 180 & 200 gram vinyl.
There is also 2 track tape and 4 track tape which is the best for sound and closest to the actual recording master.

I believe the latest Hybrid SACD is a good one.

* Who's that in your avatar Gary? ...Got a larger picture so we can make up a better image of that cute face?

 

[microstrip]

I was fortunate enough to lay my hands on a 45rpm -pressed single side -4 LP sealed copy. Played it once and recorded it straight in 2xDSD for repeated playback on my Korg. Probably the most musical bass notes I have ever heard from any version. And instrument sizing is perfect.
Though 'mep' your version must be terrific too, and you are right -overloading of the mikes do show up.

Can I ask you what is the size of those 2xDSD files?

 

[LL21]

I just picked up the K2 version of KOB. i compared to the Columbia Anniversary, and preferred K2 by quite a margin, maybe 30% or more. I'm keeping it.

 

[Bruce B]

Can I ask you what is the size of those 2xDSD files?

They're about the same size as a 24/176.4 file

 

[mep]

I put on the KOB 15 ips 2 track NAB tape last night and I'm still blown away at how great this recording is, overload warts and all.