JRiver MC Version 18

OK that's a good definition of noise. So where exactly in the chain do you think the application (JPlay) comes in? If not at the end before the DAC, what can it do about noise induced below it in the chain of events? Related to that, do you think it's coded to filter out RFI?

Unlike Amir, who states that the only advantage of using a more direct path for the signal in a PC & avoid processing layers is to avoid possible bugs which may exist in those layers, I subscribe to the view that extra processing can add noise (as per the definition I gave) or allow noise to intrude into the signal - the KISS principal has a lot going for it.

Now, I know that this signal stops at many junction points along the way & some would say that it is totally recreated along the way so how could any of this really work. Don't know EXACTLY how it works - as I said before. But when you treat the PC system as a whole then it might be reducing or removing some correlated noise modulation on the outputs that is not showing up in the stock measurements. Look at jitter as an example of this, it's well known that random jitter (RJ) up to about 2nS value has little effect on our perception of sound, whereas deterministic jitter (DJ) is much more detrimental to the sonics. DJ can come from a number of sources, the worst detrimental sonically is correlated jitter. The point being that very low values (in pico seconds) of correlated jitter are noticeable. Does correlated jitter reside within & could be masked by gross measurement techniques for jitter - yes! But the engineering community have developed measuring techniques to evaluate/measure these forms of jitter. Has the same attention been paid to noise measurements? Until such tests are developed & proven then it seems to me that there is a possibility the mechanism of operation will remain unclear.

What I know is that I have a measuring device which can give me the data I need to evaluate these differences - it's my hearing. People demanding measurements to validate this, I really don't understand. Yes, I would like to be able to know the mechanism but I'm also not going to deny what my hearing tells me simply because I don't know the mechanism of operation. All science starts with observation & this is a valid observation, repeated by many. The next step is finding out how it works.

One thing that confirms all of this is that the areas where Jplay shows differences is in dynamics & sound stage. These areas are also the ones that are improved when PS issues with PCs are addressed. The sound stage illusion relies on temporal & low level cues (the lower the level the more solid the sound stage, in my experience) - the same effects that are noticeable using Jplay & improving PS.

Edit: So in direct answer to your question - Jplay seems to provide a more stable, direct pathway for the signal delivery to the soundcard. By doing so, it benefits the final sound produced.
 
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Let's cut to the chase here - you are so caught up in measurements that you forget to listen - to trust your ears!! If you did (blind) you would realise that Jplay sounds superior to JRiver. I start with that piece of data (as I would with any audio device), which trumps all your measurements - something you have not done. Everything else is just a side issue. I'm just surmising what tests might reveal this improvement but I'm not really that bothered as I can hear the difference which is all that counts. I was hoping for an interesting discussion but see that it's fruitless - once you have listened, maybe it can progress in a separate thread - identifying the measurements that might reveal the differences but until then I'm outta here.

Yes there are many audiophile products that I'm very suspicious of as I can't see how they could possibly work & I understand your viewpoint. Usually these products have esoteric names, Quantum blah, blah or Shakti blah & esoteric prices to boot & I don't see them offering free trials so I've never tried them.

Jkeny

I am making sure I understand your post here .... Should I deduct from the above that you or someone else has conducted blind test showing JPlay to be superior? Also would like to know what is the piece of data you are referring to? Would it be the blind test or is it the fact that you believe that you heard a difference? As an aside, it is difficult for me to trust my senses : They are too easily fooled.
 
Jkeny

I am making sure I understand your post here .... Should I deduct from the above that you or someone else has conducted blind test showing JPlay to be superior? Also would like to know what is the piece of data you are referring to? Would it be the blind test or is it the fact that you believe that you heard a difference? As an aside, it is difficult for me to trust my senses : They are too easily fooled.

Well, I have done personal blind tests as others have also. I'm aware that they are not scientifically rigorous enough but neither are any DBTs I have seen being called for on forums so I don't subscribe to the pseudo-science that usually is behind calls for such DBTs - it smacks to me of children playing at doing real science like they see the grown-ups doing, without any real understanding.

I commiserate with your lack of trust in your senses - it must be difficult to navigate the real world :)
 
TBH Jkeny, IMO Frantz has one of the best ears for stereo than most any audiophile I know plus his background in EE makes me think your last comment is uncalled for
I took his comment at face value & made a bit of a joke of it. But it is the one most quoted in these types of discussions & it rings false to me! Let's face it we have evolved to where we are today with our senses as the only means of contact with the external world - if we don't trust them what does it say about the future survival of our species.

I'm aware that our sense can be fooled/manipulated/etc but by & large they are trustworthy. If you read what I said about DBTs you would realise that I'm calling for ALL biases to be eliminated not just the sighted bias so often focused on in a pseudo-scientific DBT that is called for on forums.

When I see a converging of opinion about a product from many different people with many different systems & many different sensibilities, I take note that there may be some value in the product & that it's not just hyped up by some reviewers/manufacturers. It leads me to evaluate the product myself.
 
Jkeny-As a manufacturer of digital products as your tag line claims, I'm a little surprised at the controversy you seem to generate on every digital thread. Just as Pig Pen in the Peanuts cartoon always has a cloud of dirt around him, you seem to have a cloud of controversy hanging over your head. I would think that you would tone things down a wee-bit and be more amenable to other people's opinions and not come off the way you do as seemingly always confrontational and ready for a 'good' fight.

For what it's worth, I don't own any JRiver/JPlay products. I am running FooBar which is free and plays back all of my hi-rez and DSD files perfectly as far as I can tell and hear. And if JPlay came out with a version of software to run with FooBar that you had to pay for called 'FooPlay,' I wouldn't buy it.
 
I'm aware that our sense can be fooled/manipulated/etc but by & large they are trustworthy.
Says who? I love to see why you think we collectively fail left and right anytime we are subjected to DBT if what you say is true. In a large scale test on AVS forum, the person who conducted the test made a mistake and put two files up that were identical, bit for bit. Mass number of people thought they were different, including a top audio engineer who masters movie sound for a living with huge number of blockbusters to his name. If our senses are so good, how did that occur?

I have created and participated in huge number of blind and sighted tests. I have found myself to have superhuman abilities :D (caught the duplicate files above), but then failed miserably in another where I thought two identical files were wildly different in fidelity. Sounds like you have not had these humbling experiences to have the views you have. We can argue many things but you simply cannot say your sense are trustworthy. I guarantee you that you will fail left and right if subjected to such tests.

When I see a converging of opinion about a product from many different people with many different systems & many different sensibilities, I take note that there may be some value in the product & that it's not just hyped up by some reviewers/manufacturers. It leads me to evaluate the product myself.
It shouldn't be our job to justify the value of a product. It should be the job of the person selling the better widget. The entire reason for existence of this plug-in is better fidelity yet you are saying we should be the one going doing all the work to prove or disprove its ability. How did that become the norm? If I told you an air conditioner was more efficient than the one you have, would you trust me or take it upon yourself to do the testing??? How did we as consumers lose the right to ask for validity of claims?
 
For what it's worth, I don't own any JRiver/JPlay products. I am running FooBar which is free and plays back all of my hi-rez and DSD files perfectly as far as I can tell and hear. And if JPlay came out with a version of software to run with FooBar that you had to pay for called 'FooPlay,' I wouldn't buy it.
JPLAY works fine with Foobar and has done for ages. Up to V5 JPLAY used to support iTunes too but this was dropped as JPLAY focused on ASIO support only. I'm amazed how people comment on JPLAY without knowing anything about the product. The J in JPLAY is nothing to do with Jriver. The J in Jplay comes from the name of the owner.
 
JPLAY works fine with Foobar and has done for ages. Up to V5 JPLAY used to support iTunes too but this was dropped as JPLAY focused on ASIO support only. I'm amazed how people comment on JPLAY without knowing anything about the product. The J in JPLAY is nothing to do with Jriver. The J in Jplay comes from the name of the owner.

Clive-You're right-I don't know a damn thing about JPlay and never claimed to. My remarks on this thread were mainly aimed at someone who seems to be relentless at getting his digital point of view heard. And having said that, FooBar is free and *sounds* great. I'm not going to buy a $100 dingle-berry to paste on top of FooBar and hope that it will sound better.
 
I'm aware that our sense can be fooled/manipulated/etc but by & large they are trustworthy.

I could not possibly disagree more. I know way too many people (including some on this forum) who are well educated, have excellent hearing and have great audio systems who have failed miserably (and consistently) at trying to prove your assertion of trustworthy senses. We are far more easily fooled than you can imagine.
 
JPLAY works fine with Foobar and has done for ages. Up to V5 JPLAY used to support iTunes too but this was dropped as JPLAY focused on ASIO support only. I'm amazed how people comment on JPLAY without knowing anything about the product. The J in JPLAY is nothing to do with Jriver. The J in Jplay comes from the name of the owner.

Why do you think JPlay stopped supporting iTunes to concentrate on ASIO? It seems to me they gave up a huge market. Trouble with Apple?
 
Clive-You're right-I don't know a damn thing about JPlay and never claimed to. My remarks on this thread were mainly aimed at someone who seems to be relentless at getting his digital point of view heard. And having said that, FooBar is free and *sounds* great. I'm not going to buy a $100 dingle-berry to paste on top of FooBar and hope that it will sound better.

FYI, I was wrong on the price. It is a hundred EUROS and around $150.
 
Why do you think JPlay stopped supporting iTunes to concentrate on ASIO? It seems to me they gave up a huge market. Trouble with Apple?
Probably because open standards are a good way to go. Yes, OPEN!

iTunes is big but more in the lossy compressed space.
 
FYI, I was wrong on the price. It is a hundred EUROS and around $150.
It's more like $130, this includes tax in Europe as this is the way we typically quote prices. It's not free but this price includes updates, major and minor. It's not cheap but vs the price of cables etc it is not expensive.
 
It's more like $130, this includes tax in Europe as this is the way we typically quote prices. It's not free but this price includes updates, major and minor. It's not cheap but vs the price of cables etc it is not expensive.

Oh I have no issues with the price, I just want to correct my previous post for the record.
 
If iTunes supported ASIO then JPLAY would work with it. If anyone wants iTunes support they could use V4 I suppose.

I was just curious. I know some one is very happy with the $10 BitPerfect plug in for ITunes and has their entire collection in ALAC and could not be happier.
 

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