JRiver MC Version 18

[Andre Marc]

In this commercial context "hoax" is just code language for "fraud", "scam" or "snake-oil". I think JRiver is avoiding this language to avoid exposure to litigation.

But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, ultimately the joke (hoax!) is on us. If all the resident audiophiles and other assorted experts with their golden ears and finely tuned six figure systems cannot agree on whether Jplay actually improves or deteriorates sound quality or does diddly squat to it, what does that say about our hobby......

Ultimately, I would never buy a $100 plug in, or what ever you want to call it, to make a $50 program sound "better".

It is like buying a $1000 power cord for a $500 CD player.

Again let me restate, i have no experience with Jplay, but I am skeptical. However who knows, maybe it does what they say.

I do wonder why they just don't write their own program from scratch instead of relying on the Jriver installed base.

 

[dallasjustice]

I can't definitely say jplay improves the sound of my sytem. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend someone spendy on it. Try it for free and decide.

My only real interest in keny's comments is that I very strongly defend any property owner's efforts to protect THEIR property. By the way, its not a crime or violation of any law to express an opinion and I also celebrate Matt's right to do so.

 

[rbbert]

I think you can use Jplay alone, in fact it was originally designed and marketed that way. Somewhere along the way someone (I think outside the company, in fact) realized that JRiver already had a good user interface and music/media cataloging system and that Jplay could run as a plug-in for it, saving Jplay the time and expense of devloping its own.

 

[jkeny]

Out in the real world & back after an enjoyable night & reading the comments while I was away from digital land.

I really don't want to or care to convince anyone whether Jplay sounds better or not - it's completely up to each individual to evaluate that for themselves. As rbbert said you can download & evaluate this for yourself. Evaluate it as you do any other change to your system. I have faith in the masses to determine what products have value & what doesn't, not in a discussion on a forum.

There is no question of "proof" or otherwise in this - simply using ones own ears is sufficient for most people in this hobby we call audio. Yes, if you want to bring a case to court there is a different level of evidence needed. Who really cares about this? Not me - I trust my ears. Did I do scientifically rigorous DBTs, blah, blah - I will if somebody bankrolls the exercise - covering all the needed factors to ensure a valid test, (i,e the elimination of ALL biases) such as the statistical numbers required, training & pre-qualification, anchors, etc. I find challenges for DBTs to be so much pseudo-scientific clap-trap that it grates with me.

Did I do my own personal blind testing. Yes!! Would it stand up to scientific rigour - hardly any more than anybody else's personal DBT. So if this is the level of proof that those who call for DBT need, then Jplay achieves a pass grade.

As for the so called bits is bits argument - I consider this BS also. If this is Jriver's field of operation (i.e "they live in the land of macro level fidelity") than how does Jriver have any more value than any other bit-perfect playback software. Is it their UI that is their USP? I find other bit-perfect playback software to have a better UI. Even iTunes can be made bit-perfect, I believe.

 

[jkeny]

I can't definitely say jplay improves the sound of my sytem. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend someone spendy on it. Try it for free and decide.

Yes totally agree & I don't try to skew the results by suggesting it is a "hoax" before people try it

My only real interest in keny's comments is that I very strongly defend any property owner's efforts to protect THEIR property. By the way, its not a crime or violation of any law to express an opinion and I also celebrate Matt's right to do so.

I have no problem with anybody having the right to say anything as I have no problem with defending the right of anybody disagreeing with the statements made & pointing out where they may be flawed & ill-advised for a number of reasons.

I do find it interesting how you express this however "someone defending their property" & the reference to legal/crime/violation. Who, other than you, couched it in these terms or brought it to this level?

If, as Amir points out, JRiver have no concern for sound quality improvements in computer audio with their product other than the achievement of the trivial goal of bit-perfection, then maybe this could/should be explicitly stated by them, rather than calling other products hoaxes that don't subscribe to this view. Why not let the other products die in the marketplace as would happen if they have no value beyond bit-perfection. If they are so sure of their product & it's sound quality why would there be a need for any other action? Surely the market will decide!

 

[jkeny]

Ultimately, I would never buy a $100 plug in, or what ever you want to call it, to make a $50 program sound "better".

It is like buying a $1000 power cord for a $500 CD player.

Again let me restate, i have no experience with Jplay, but I am skeptical. However who knows, maybe it does what they say.

I do wonder why they just don't write their own program from scratch instead of relying on the Jriver installed base.

I can't see the logic here.
Do we limit our choices of what we use based on what we have spent on the products we attach them to?
Is there intrinsic value in a product or is this value only realisable by connecting to products in the same price category?
Can these categories be delineated so that we can ensure we don't step outside of the boundaries & waste or under buy our products?

BTW, I concur that some products are priced way beyond their value ($1,000 power cord - give me a break) & would never subscribe to outrageous pricing like this. But this has nothing to do with what I had spent on the rest of my system.

 

[Steve Williams]

Perhaps Andre was trying to say that you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

 

[jkeny]

... I recall it saying something like jriver doesn't recommend using jplay because it creates unnecessary processes and some other stuff. I don't know what Matt said on some other forum.

Well, you have statements from me, Elberoth & that thread on pinkfishmedia to the effect that Jplay was claimed to be a "hoax" on JRiver' own forum by JimH of JRiver - you can choose to not believe this if you wish - it is your choice.

 

[jkeny]

Perhaps Andre was trying to say that you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Indeed, but he proffers this as a reason why Jplay should not be purchased & I simply don't get his logic. Is he saying JRiver is a sow's ear, then?
If he said that Jplay was so good & should be only purchased & used with playback software that cost >$200 but I doubt this was his meaning.

 

[jkeny]

I would parse the situation this way:

1. Objective macro level fidelity. At this level, it is easy to prove that jplay makes no difference. Bits get out the same way bits get out using Jriver. Calling it hoax in this school of thought is defensible, albeit in bad taste.

2. Objective micro level fidelity. This is where we look at timing of the bits, noise radiating from PC, etc., bleeding into DAC. It might seem that we can put value behind Jplay in this model of the universe. But I have a hard time accepting this validates performance of Jplay. There is no way an app on a PC can ever control what all a PC does. The operating system is in charge and there is so much asynchronous activity going on, outside of the control of the playback app, that no argument in my opinion can easily stick that there is an improvement. For all we know, changing how things work, may make it worse, not better! So on this front, I think Jriver may be 90% right if not 100%.

3. Subjective fidelity. Anything goes here. Problem is what Frantz says. If we don't believe in DBT, then there is no proof one way or the other. So in this case we could say Jriver is 50% wrong, and 50% right.

As far as I can tell, Jriver folks live in land of #1 so in that regard, it is perfectly justifiable for them to say what they said since countless other people believe in the same view of the world. Even if they traveled to #2, I believe the weight of evidence is on their side. No one has shown objectively how the PC acts differently on the output of the DAC when the playback pipeline is changed with Jplay.

Note that this is no the same as analog vs digital. In that argument, huge number of parameters are changed. Here, the bits themselves cannot change. And the system remains digital in both cases. So in this regard, I don't leave as much room for #3 argument as I would in other cases .

Amir, Can you explain why JRiver might then have this recommendation on their forum regarding use of JRiver

"WASAPI output mode pushes data from Media Center to the sound device. It works with nearly all hardware.

WASAPI Event Style lets a sound device pull data from Media Center. This method is not supported by all hardware, but is recommended when supported."

Is this for some other reason than bit-perfect operation? http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80614.msg548590#msg548590

 

[Andre Marc]

I can't see the logic here.
Do we limit our choices of what we use based on what we have spent on the products we attach them to?
Is there intrinsic value in a product or is this value only realisable by connecting to products in the same price category?
Can these categories be delineated so that we can ensure we don't step outside of the boundaries & waste or under buy our products?

BTW, I concur that some products are priced way beyond their value ($1,000 power cord - give me a break) & would never subscribe to outrageous pricing like this. But this has nothing to do with what I had spent on the rest of my system.

Actually what I am saying is that that in the real world, most consumers are going to spend
money on additions and or tweaks for their system that are COMMENSURATE with their overall outlay.

Take my power cord example, funny huh? Well guess what, I know someone who did just that..
dropped a grand on a power cord for a player that cost about as much.

But in truth, spending $100 on Jplay to upgrade the $50 Jirver is not really bank breaker. I just
think it has become an internet forum topic because it costs twice the price of the program
it is supposed to augment. In fact those on the MAC side spend $150 on Pure Music, or at least
$75 on Audirvana Plus.

Now let me repeat for the third time..I have no opinion or issue with Jplay...have not tried, and I just might
download it and report back!!!

(In fact, I would also love to review one of your DACs, since now I have a dedicated Windows laptop
running Jriver.)

 

[Andre Marc]

Perhaps Andre was trying to say that you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Yes, in many cases..and I see audiophiles make silly decisions trying to make budget components shine with expensive
isolation or power products.

In fact, Jriver sounds excellent. It is the software I used to play those 192 Khz Eagle tracks on your system.

My main point was that Jriver is $50, the JPlay plug in is $100..and there is no consensus as to whether it actually
improves Jriver, and the reason the folks at Jriver are attacking Jplay, is that to endorse it is to admit they have a flawed product..
which no company is going to do.

 

[Andre Marc]

Indeed, but he proffers this as a reason why Jplay should not be purchased & I simply don't get his logic. Is he saying JRiver is a sow's ear, then?
If he said that Jplay was so good & should be only purchased & used with playback software that cost >$200 but I doubt this was his meaning.

"I don't offer a reason to purchase it or not to purchase it! I say anyone can download it and try..also see this review:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/road-jplay

I first compared the sound of JRiver with WASAPI Event Style and the MSB USB driver for The Analog DAC with JRiver using the MSB ASIO driver. It was no contest. Running JRiver in ASIO sounded much better to me than WASAPI; a bigger soundstage with superior detail and focus. I was very impressed with JRiver ASIO.

As good as JRiver sounded, JPlay in ULTRAstream was superior. The soundstage was larger in both depth and width. Bass was tighter with more impact and far more dynamic. What really got my attention was the superior clarity, focus and definition with JPlay. "

and:

"JPlay 5.1 with JRiver in Windows 8 Pro 64 bit is now my reference player. Marcin and Josef have done a great job with JPlay. I suggest that you give the trial version a listen to see if it improves the sound of your system as much as it did for me. "

My only commentary here is offering a possible rationale for Jriver attacking Jplay. I make no other judgements!

 

[jkeny]

Now let me repeat for the third time..I have no opinion or issue with Jplay...have not tried, and I just might
download it and report back!!!

(In fact, I would also love to review one of your DACs, since now I have a dedicated Windows laptop
running Jriver.)

Sure on both counts - would be interested in your impressions of Jplay & also of my DACs.
I don't think I need to tell you this but let me say it anyway - computer audio is not just plug it in & play, if you want to hear it's real potential. It requires some attention to detail & in my mind, funnily harks back to setting up a turntable - a number of variables need to be attended to in it's initial set-up but it's set & forget after that. Perhaps that the reason why some don't hear any difference with Jplay - their systems are just incapable of that level of resolution. I know that sounds hackneyed but it does not mean that it's not also true.

 

[Andre Marc]

Sure on both counts - would be interested in your impressions of Jplay & also of my DACs.
I don't think I need to tell you this but let me say it anyway - computer audio is not just plug it in & play, if you want to hear it's real potential. It requires some attention to detail & in my mind, funnily harks back to setting up a turntable - a number of variables need to be attended to in it's initial set-up but it's set & forget after that. Perhaps that the reason why some don't hear any difference with Jplay - their systems are just incapable of that level of resolution. I know that sounds hackneyed but it does not mean that it's not also true.

Absolutely agree. Right on the money.

For the record, I have reviewed the PS Audio NuWave DAC, the Rein Audio X3-DAC, the MyTek, the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II, and
the Marantz Reference SACD player with Async USB input with my current laptop. My USB cables include an Audioquest Forrest,
DH Labs USB, and a WireWorld UltraViolet. All my files are in FLAC.

My main "computer audio" set up is a Mac Mini, running Logitech Media Server, serving two Squeezebox Touch's via Ethernet, with
a Bryston BDA-1 and Musical Fidelity V-DAC II.

 

[jkeny]

What I was talking about was the jriver wiki message pop up when i started jriver with jplay a couple of days ago. I don't recall the "hoax" appearing in that message. I recall it saying something like jriver doesn't recommend using jplay because it creates unnecessary processes and some other stuff. I don't know what Matt said on some other forum.

Just to add further evidence of this "hoax" claim by JRiver. This post from WED 22nd I just came across http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41286#p41286

I installed an update for JRiver and this message appeared???


Jplay is a Hoax
JRiver recommends that you uninstall Jplay. It adds a layer of sound processing that can degrade sound quality, performance, and stability.

You will achieve the best sound quality with JRiver alone.

The author of the foobar player agrees.

So DJ, you told us that you remember seeing some of this message but did not repeat it verbatim as above.

Can you now tell us if this is the same message you got?


Edit: Oh & I missed this too - a post by Jriver on ComputerAudiophile http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f...-1-vs-jriver-18-jplay-5-1-a-16125/#post227018

Jplay is a hoax. This has been discussed in the past. You could try a search to read the facts.

Or you could go on believing what you wish.

I believe that clears up any doubt about whether or not JRiver is claiming Jplay is a hoax!!
Unless DJ still wants to deny it & give his reasons?

 

[jkeny]

Maybe this real-world case might be informative - it's a recent email discussion I had with a customer of mine:
His first reply:

Hey John,
I didn't want to get back to you without a thorough evaluation. The sound didn't change noticeably after about 48 hrs of burn-in. I'm still experiencing the same type of sound characteristics that I described before. It's certainly not bad, but I'd have wished for a bit more presence and livelier dynamics while still keeping the Ciunas' smooth sound that is not fatiguing. I'm going to continue to listen though and see what I think. I'm using it mostly with MOG on my PC. I've tried it w/ Foobar playing lossless recordings and it sounds a little better, but not dramatically so.

AFter I asked a couple of questions - his reply:

MOG is a streaming service that streams music at 320kbps. In terms of USB I use a generic cable that's about 10 ft long. I'll give jplay a try, but at $150 USD it's a bit pricey

Later on:

I have been using JPlay with lossless FLAC as you suggested and it's made a noticeable difference to the sound. However, I've not yet received my super-short USB; that's coming. While the sound is more dynamic and has lost the quality of being recessed through JPlay, it does have a bright edge to it now.

And later:

After finicking around with JPlay settings and getting xtreme engine to work, I can finally hear what everyone is talking about. I need more time for a more critical listening session, but suffice it to say I couldn't draw myself away from the music until 2am. It really does sound quite nice. I'll give you more feedback once I've had more time with this setup.

 

[Andre Marc]

Maybe this real-world case might be informative - it's a recent email discussion I had with a customer of mine:
His first reply:
AFter I asked a couple of questions - his reply:

Later on:

And later:

But hold on a second here..is he hearing the difference between a lossy MOG stream and lossless FLACs, or Jplay?

It seems to me the only valid comparison would be FLACs with and without Jplay..I am assuming he is running Jriver?

Also, do share the opinion of some on the fringe about the length of digital cables? I have heard some proclaim
that a minimum length of .75 or 1.5 sounds better, and even longer lengths are desirable, due to "refractions".

 

[jkeny]

But hold on a second here..is he hearing the difference between a lossy MOG stream and lossless FLACs, or Jplay?

It seems to me the only valid comparison would be FLACs with and without Jplay..I am assuming he is running Jriver?

Also, do share the opinion of some on the fringe about the length of digital cables? I have heard some proclaim
that a minimum length of .75 or 1.5 sounds better, and even longer lengths are desirable, due to "refractions".

Sorry, I should have framed this better - my example case was about how computer audio needs a bit of attention to hear it in a decent way - not about how Jplay sounds Vs JRiver. yes, I know he was playing MOG compressed files & I told him this & his long USB cable was killing the sound. My point being that if I didn't point him in the right direction he might have ended up with the opinion that my DAC & Jplay were of no real value & maybe that everyone who said otherwise was just exaggerating &/or deluded.

I have done experiments with USB cables & the absence of USB cable sounds best to me & many others i.e a direct USB connection through adapters. Failing that, the shortest USB cable seems to be next best (with the +5V wire removed). I don't know the reasons why - doubt it's about reflections due to impedance mismatches as the cables that I've seen which sound good pay no real attention to the 90ohm characteristic impedance standard applicable to USB.

Long cables & reflections seem to be more discussed in relation to SPDIF carrying coaxial cables. If the reflections returning to the SPDIF receiver can be timed to avoid the time in which the transition is being sensed at the receiver, then jitter can be avoided as a result. This requires measurements & calculations for the cable in question to calculate the correct length. I believe short or very long SPDIF cables work best - just not the usual 1M to 1.5M ones!

 

[Andre Marc]

Sorry, I should have framed this better - my example case was about how computer audio needs a bit of attention to hear it in a decent way - not about how Jplay sounds Vs JRiver. yes, I know he was playing MOG compressed files & I told him this & his long USB cable was killing the sound. My point being that if I didn't point him in the right direction he might have ended up with the opinion that my DAC & Jplay were of no real value & maybe that everyone who said otherwise was just exaggerating &/or deluded.

I have done experiments with USB cables & the absence of USB cable sounds best to me & many others i.e a direct USB connection through adapters. Failing that, the shortest USB cable seems to be next best (with the +5V wire removed). I don't know the reasons why - doubt it's about reflections due to impedance mismatches as the cables that I've seen which sound good pay no real attention to the 90ohm characteristic impedance standard applicable to USB.

Long cables & reflections seem to be more discussed in relation to SPDIF carrying coaxial cables. If the reflections returning to the SPDIF receiver can be timed to avoid the time in which the transition is being sensed at the receiver, then jitter can be avoided as a result. This requires measurements & calculations for the cable in question to calculate the correct length. I believe short or very long SPDIF cables work best - just not the usual 1M to 1.5M ones!

Yes, attention to detail is paramount. But on a side note, for those with less patience..a one box server or file streamer is certainly a no brainer.

Thanks for your input on digital cables. It is a very interesting topic.