JPLAY Responds: An Open Letter

[jkeny]

John: What I am saying, and what I have always maintained, is that I accept that noise produced in the computer/server can couple to the interface/DAC/analog stages and affect sonics negatively. This noise coupling is the only mechanism (given a bit perfect player) which I believe can affect playback sonics from the computer/server side. Many appear to suggest that even in a bit perfect environment there are "other things happening" to the data, which effect sonics (other than noise). When it comes to jPlay, there is a fundamental problem for me, as using jPlay appears to require a higher power processor, and, hence, more noise rather than less (in comparison to say, an Atom running Voyage/MPD).

Sorry, I still don't follow your logic - leaving out Jplay for the moment - is it your contention that different SW playback can or cannot produce different levels/spectra of noise & that this can have an affect on the sound that we hear when the signal is processed through a DAC?

 

[jkeny]

It's ironic that such a statement should be made about John Swenson - "he did not respond once that point was made"

 

[rdsu]

JRiver v19 also have an ASIO driver, like JPlay, and the feedback is that sounds better now.

How is this possible, if bits are bits and was previously impossible to have better sound, and JPLAY is a hoax!?

It seems that now some have to change their minds, or now JRiver is also a hoax!!!???

What a shame...

 

[jkeny]

I was reading about their volume control because of DallasJustice's blind tests finding it easily bettered by the TotalDAC's vol control. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ters-in-Jriver&p=214349&viewfull=1#post214349

Came across this thread on JRiver's forum http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76912.0
Where Bob Katz asked about their use of dither & later gave them advice on using better dither in their vol control.

Interesting insight into their mindset. Started with this comment

If you look in DSP Studio > Output Format > Bitdepth, you'll see that we offer dithering at 16-bit and 8-bit.

Currently we do not offer dithering at 24-bit. I've read discussions on both sides of this issue, and don't feel strongly about it. I do know that even with good equipment, it's hard for me to hear the shape of even the 15th or 16th bit:

So as of Jan 2013 they didn't really care about/couldn't hear rounding issues causing errors at 15 or 16 bit depth.

Interestingly they allow this statement from Bob to go unchallenged

Also, keep in mind that the noise of dither is usually inaudible, but the artifacts of not dithering (distortion, loss of depth, loss of soundstage and loss of warmth) are audible. It's also a matter of ear-training. Most people are first trained to recognize timbre, but soundstage depth and dimension, far more subtle quantitles, are what are lost first when truncation is performed instead of dithering.

Interesting in that this is almost exactly the differences that Jplay users report when compared to Jriver.
A single, anecdotal report from Bob goes unchallenged, yet many, many similar reports from Jriver/Jplay users are dismissed & the product called a hoax. Where's the demand for measurements, DBTs, any evidence from Bob to back up his outrageous claims?

Business as usual, I guess?

 

[rdsu]

What a joke...
They try to make everything, but it seems they aren't excellent on anything!

Besides Media Center, they are also anti-hoax, because periodically I receive a message about of using JPlay ASIO driver!
My Audio PC is headless, so I have to use RDP, close that stupid message, and only then I can enjoy the music.
If they do this, I'm sure they also changed something to try JPlay ASIO sound horse...

Maybe now foobar2000 author must make a campaign against JRiver, because it now sounds better and is also a hoax!
foobar2000 and JRiver were supposed to use exactly the same code for audio output, since they aren't any difference between them...

Until it is possible, they will not see any more money from me!!!

 

[jkeny]

BTW, you can check their listening abilities/playback equipment/mindset with a "feature" that they apparently added to MC18 - "Bitdepth Simulator" http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74999.0

We added a DSP called 'Bitdepth simulator' to MC18.

It's a way to artificially reduce the bitdepth of the signal inside Media Center. It's useful for understanding bitdepth, for testing, or just as a toy.

So for example, you could test and see if you can really hear a difference if you play a 24bit file back at 16bit instead of 24bit.

Or you can figure out what's the lowest bitdepth at which you can tell a difference. Pick a number, say 10bit and turn the DSP on and off and see if you can hear a difference. Then add a bit and see if you can still hear a difference.

For me, 12bit is audibly degraded. 13bit requires concentration, and I can only hear a difference sometimes (using headphones and a high volume). After that I'm not sure I can pick above 50% (eyes closed, tapping the space bar in DSP Studio to toggle).

So, if they have coded this correctly you can test whether you agree with JRiver or Bob Katz, assuming, of course, that JRiver is not masking differences at these bit depth levels. Maybe a second test with Audacity might be wise - if you can do this in Audacity?

 

[amirm]

BTW, you can check their listening abilities/playback equipment/mindset with a "feature" that they apparently added to MC18 - "Bitdepth Simulator" http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74999.0

Seems like a cool feature indeed. There is feedback from our own Vincent in that thread:

"Tried it with a 24 bit recording.
Set bit depth to 16, could not hear any difference.
At 14 bits there is a slight noise in the background but I don’t think the difference will survive a unsighted test in my case.
Nice toy!"

Seems like he agrees with Matt's self-assessment.

So, if they have coded this correctly you can test whether you agree with JRiver or Bob Katz, assuming, of course, that JRiver is not masking differences at these bit depth levels. Maybe a second test with Audacity might be wise - if you can do this in Audacity?

You don't need to agree with either. Run the test blind, do your comparison, etc. Anything objective would do to advance the argument.

 

[jkeny]

Yes, Vincent Kars does concur with JRiver's view. Makes one wonder if they have messed it up in some way or JRiver itself doesn't have the resolution for this test, doesn't it?

 

[rdsu]

amirm,

Good to see that now you believe that is possible to improve sound quality on computers...

But you can use foobar2000 to maintain it...

 

[amirm]

amirm,

Good to see that now you believe that is possible to improve sound quality on computers...

Sorry I don't follow the comment. Of course you can improve the fidelity of computer playback in general. That is not what is discussed in this thread. The discussion is whether changing how bit perfect bits are transmitted changes fidelity when objective tests so far show no difference. No new data is presented to change the situation.

 

[Vincent Kars]

No new “data” but some very interesting observations by John Swenson
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

 

[jkeny]

Yes, indeed, Vincent, JS states it succinctly but all of this is not really new just well presented & to most here it's just speculation until some empirical evidence is presented.

BTW, what system did you use to evaluate the JRiver bitdepth simulator? Still using an upsampling ASRC Benchmark DAC?

 

[Vincent Kars]

Still using an upsampling ASRC Benchmark DAC?

Yes.
Had a listen to an Auralic Vega.
Excellent DAC but the improvements compared with the Benchmark are not enough to justify the expense IMHO

 

[jkeny]

Yes.
Had a listen to an Auralic Vega.
Excellent DAC but the improvements compared with the Benchmark are not enough to justify the expense IMHO

Ah, right, 1.5MHz upsampling. Could this possibly affect your listening results - you're not exactly listening to the bit stream that is output from Jriver but rather an upsampled version of this?

 

[dollars2donuts]

Looks like the Brits have an organization to take on firms that make spurious, misleading or unproven claims - in this case, an audio cable company :http://asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2011/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49597.aspx.

If the ASA can find fault with the cable company's practices, then jplay's website, open letters and forum posts would seem extremely vulnerable to a similar complaint. Jplay is within the territory that ASA works, either directly or through international partners. Anyone can file a complaint online according to http://asa.org.uk/Consumers.aspx.

Many have laid out in this thread compelling arguments for jplay to be held accountable and exposing their inherently conflicting claims (just one example: the output can't be both bitperfect and better than another bitperfect player without any credible proof).

Using those arguments, I encourage everyone to file a complaint against jplay and other audio companies engaged in similar audiophoolery.

 

[edorr]

Looks like the Brits have an organization to take on firms that make spurious, misleading or unproven claims - in this case, an audio cable company :http://asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2011/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49597.aspx.

If the ASA can find fault with the cable company's practices, then jplay's website, open letters and forum posts would seem extremely vulnerable to a similar complaint. Jplay is within the territory that ASA works, either directly or through international partners. Anyone can file a complaint online according to http://asa.org.uk/Consumers.aspx.

Many have laid out in this thread compelling arguments for jplay to be held accountable and exposing their inherently conflicting claims (just one example: the output can't be both bitperfect and better than another bitperfect player without any credible proof).

Using those arguments, I encourage everyone to file a complaint against jplay and other audio companies engaged in similar audiophoolery.

Big can of worms. I know plenty engineers that are absolutely convinced all power cabling is a fraud, and many many manufacturers will have a very hard time substantiating their claims with objective scientific evidence. There is so much voodoo going on in high end I think this is a waste of time. From what I understand jplay has free trial. If it does not work for you, erase your copy and move on.

 

[Elberoth]

Interesting first post. I really would like to belive you do not have any hidden agenda here.

There would be enough people, including many reviewers, to support Jplay claim.

Changing a power cord on a streamer or CD transport would also not change the 1s and 0s in the SPDIF stream, and yet - it makes it sound different.

 

[microstrip]

Looks like the Brits have an organization to take on firms that make spurious, misleading or unproven claims - in this case, an audio cable company :http://asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2011/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49597.aspx.

If the ASA can find fault with the cable company's practices, then jplay's website, open letters and forum posts would seem extremely vulnerable to a similar complaint. Jplay is within the territory that ASA works, either directly or through international partners. Anyone can file a complaint online according to http://asa.org.uk/Consumers.aspx.

Many have laid out in this thread compelling arguments for jplay to be held accountable and exposing their inherently conflicting claims (just one example: the output can't be both bitperfect and better than another bitperfect player without any credible proof).

Using those arguments, I encourage everyone to file a complaint against jplay and other audio companies engaged in similar audiophoolery.

This case has little relevance with most audio advertisement. The ASA could work in this case because the advertisement had a specific technical claim that could not be proved - reducing RFI. The offending company just changed the wording of their advertisement - they now refer to clean mains , mains pollution and sound quality. This just means companies should have a technical lawyer revising their marketing.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Changing a power cord on a streamer or CD transport would also not change the 1s and 0s in the SPDIF stream, and yet - it makes it sound different.

+1!

 

[dallasjustice]

I am so thankful to this fine organization, ASA. They've made it possible for me to not even use my own brain. Now, I can take comfort that I am being protected under the ASA watchful eye. I bet the ASA will prevent millions of Brits from losing their life savings on low cost audio tweaks. I feel better that the ASA "expert" has evaluated all claims made and determined that I need not think further on the subject.

I also want to thank ASA because they've now given low cost mass production hifi companies a real fighting chance to compete in the high end audio marketplace. I am certain those large multi-national electronics firms won't abuse this fine agency's power for their own benefit.

Looks like the Brits have an organization to take on firms that make spurious, misleading or unproven claims - in this case, an audio cable company :http://asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2011/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49597.aspx.

If the ASA can find fault with the cable company's practices, then jplay's website, open letters and forum posts would seem extremely vulnerable to a similar complaint. Jplay is within the territory that ASA works, either directly or through international partners. Anyone can file a complaint online according to http://asa.org.uk/Consumers.aspx.

Many have laid out in this thread compelling arguments for jplay to be held accountable and exposing their inherently conflicting claims (just one example: the output can't be both bitperfect and better than another bitperfect player without any credible proof).

Using those arguments, I encourage everyone to file a complaint against jplay and other audio companies engaged in similar audiophoolery.