Jeff Fritz/State of the Uber High End

[rockitman]

I don't think I'm completely off the hook here as I've also been guilty of saying that Brand X is equal to Brand Y costing twice the price. I think when Ive said that it wasn't so much a statement on component quality, but rather on one of musical enjoyment and taste.

I have been guilty too...let's see...the new Opus cables from trans. Having spent way too much on cabling myself...ie Odin, while happy with them, I do think I could be happy with a cable half it's price or even a third. I had a very poor Nordost buying experience that I will not share on line. These uber expensive cable guys are ruthless and cut throat, IMO. I think components and speakers are area's where high prices can be more justified. Über Cables ? Absolutely not. They are a rip off speaking from a hypocritical POV. there is no way in hell they can justify their price based on materials, R&D, ect. My approach to my system has been all out assault to best best of my financial means..that meant using the top tier well known and proven cables. I think Mike L did a similar thing only to sell the uber cable for a less well known but synergistic match for his system that saved a lot of money.

 

[Orb]

Well a case can be made that those supercars do actually perform... When it comes to Audio , it's up in the air .. Preferences and all that ...

Ah Frantz, but lets take F1 racing cars; it IS about preferences on how a driver likes them setup
Same concept applies to supercars.

Cheers
Orb

 

[FrantzM]

Ah Frantz, but lets take F1 racing cars; it IS about preferences on how a driver likes them setup
Same concept applies to supercars.

Cheers
Orb

Not sure that the comparison is valid: The driver's preference of the car setting has a clear , objective and unequivocal purpose: Performance, in that case to win or not the race. In Audio, we can't even agree on what the metrics should be ...

 

[Orb]

Not sure that the comparison is valid: The driver's preference of the car setting has a clear , objective and unequivocal purpose: Performance, in that case to win or not the race. In Audio, we can't even agree on what the metrics should be ...

Actually you are the one that mentioned preferences as a complaint with regards to Micro and audio vs performance
I just pointed out how even high end racing/performance cars also in the same context of preference vs performance.
You will find drivers will set up a car that actually does not match the engineers model for optimum performance.... which is my point as drivers rely upon subjective preferences (of course along with engineering data) to attain what they feel is their best.

The listener's preference for selecting their audio equipment has a clear, objective and unequivocal purpose just that it does not equate to lap times but musical enjoyment and satisfaction, and critically what they feel is their best long term critical listening, music is art.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have been guilty too...let's see...the new Opus cables from trans. Having spent way too much on cabling myself...ie Odin, while happy with them, I do think I could be happy with a cable half it's price or even a third. I had a very poor Nordost buying experience that I will not share on line. These uber expensive cable guys are ruthless and cut throat, IMO. I think components and speakers are area's where high prices can be more justified. Über Cables ? Absolutely not. They are a rip off speaking from a hypocritical POV. there is no way in hell they can justify their price based on materials, R&D, ect. My approach to my system has been all out assault to best best of my financial means..that meant using the top tier well known and proven cables. I think Mike L did a similar thing only to sell the uber cable for a less well known but synergistic match for his system that saved a lot of money.

I'm lucky in that my speaker designer has done a good bit of his own cable research and design and has made some great signal and power cables which also are synergistic with his speakers. Gary Koh of Genesis has done the same thing and i have 9 of his power cables in my system. it's no coincidence that all my signal and power cables are designed by super high end speaker designers. their pursuit of the ultimate reference is hard to match. they are designing and voicing crossovers for $200,000 and over speakers! they are constantly testing drivers and other speaker pieces and so cables are such a huge aspect of what they do.

their cables are not cheap. but they are real world priced.

i respect the Transparent and Nordost products and have owned lots of both. i used to have all Transparent and owned Opus speaker (2 sets) and interconnects. also at one point i owned 6 sets of Nordost Valhalla interconnects. they delivered on performance. however; their 'value-performance' ratio at the highest end is debatable.....whatever heights they scale.

it's like the very expensive Taralabs speaker cables that claimed to have the most 'copper' in their $40k+ speaker cables......my triple run Evolution Acoustics speaker cables at 20% the price have a little bit more copper. and they sound amazing.

the highest priced cables do deliver, but there are other no compromise products out there with competitive performance if you look a little.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

it's no coincidence that all my signal and power cables are designed by super high end speaker designers. their pursuit of the ultimate reference is hard to match. they are designing and voicing crossovers for $200,000 and over speakers! they are constantly testing drivers and other speaker pieces and so cables are such a huge aspect of what they do.

This is the type of mindset that is absolute nonsense. Because someone is designing $200,000 loudspeakers they are therefore qualified to design cables, or anything else? Do you think Jack Oclee-Brown, the Head of Acoustics at KEF, a PhD in Loudspeaker Acoustics who's studied and written extensively on waveguide behavior, is less qualified because his designs only go to $30k or so? Really? There is more advanced research at KEF than . . . nevermind.

And BTW, while some folks are "testing drivers" they bought, guys like Oclee-Brown are designing drivers from the ground up themselves. So much for the ". . . pursuit of the ultimate reference . . . "

The point here is equating price with performance -- in high-end audio -- is hogwash. And that extrapolates to the "pursuit" of performance too.

 

[Joe Whip]

I couldn't agree more Jeff. I have heard a ton of systems in my day. The worst I have heard have all been mega rigs in terms of price. I won't name names but it is amazing how some people can sit there and enjoy these systems which to me, sound terrible. Yes they are detailed but so bright and lacking in real bass. I mean we all hear differently and have different priorities when it comes to sound but jeez.... some of these systems are run out of the room bad. How anyone can think these systems sound delicious to quote someone is hard to believe. A friend was talking to a designer of a well know line of speakers at a local event. He was told that the best they can do with design tops out at a speaker in the $30,000 range which is the best they sell. Way too rich for my blood still but in today's audiophile world it is classified as reasonable. Our little hobby and the pursuit of "excellence" as some would phrase it, has really run off the rails.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I'm glad I only concern myself with the "pursuit of enjoyment".

 

[microstrip]

(...)

The point here is equating price with performance -- in high-end audio -- is hogwash. And that extrapolates to the "pursuit" of performance too.

No serious audiophile will equate price with performance - but experience has told us that some very high price equipment sounds great.

IMHO the correct word for an interesting debate is not equating but correlating - a much more elaborate and interesting mathematical concept.

 

[andromedaaudio]

IMO overhere there are enough audiophliles who will equate price with performance , secondly mostly they need a guru whether it be a magazine or a dealer!!

 

[FrantzM]

This is the type of mindset that is absolute nonsense. Because someone is designing $200,000 loudspeakers they are therefore qualified to design cables, or anything else? Do you think Jack Oclee-Brown, the Head of Acoustics at KEF, a PhD in Loudspeaker Acoustics who's studied and written extensively on waveguide behavior, is less qualified because his designs only go to $30k or so? Really? There is more advanced research at KEF than . . . nevermind.

And BTW, while some folks are "testing drivers" they bought, guys like Oclee-Brown are designing drivers from the ground up themselves. So much for the ". . . pursuit of the ultimate reference . . . "

The point here is equating price with performance -- in high-end audio -- is hogwash. And that extrapolates to the "pursuit" of performance too.

Thanks Jeff This needed to be said .. The amount of rationalization and of false logic that I see here is amusing and frankly I see nor reason for some manufacturers to not continue this flight toward even higher price ... We are in Luxury watches land in Audio these days. Let's face it ..

 

[KeithR]

Yes they do and in general, statement products from top tier audio brands also perform over and above their lesser models. If you spend way too much on a brand's statement product and it doesn't deliver, you bought the wrong brand. Pretty simple. I do understand that people who own much more affordable equipment want validation that their systems sound close to the uber expensive systems. Wishful thinking for the most part. You do get what you pay for if you know what you are doing and know what to hear for.

Ironic since Nelson Pass doesn't say this re: FirstWatt vs Pass.

 

[ack]

Jeff, Frantz - I would leave some room for error in your comments re: EA cables. It is quite conceivable that the EA designer is approaching his cable designs as an extension of his crossovers, thus not outright disqualified as a cable designer. He may even go as far as adjusting the crossover based on the length of speaker cable purchased. With respect to interconnects (and I am not sure if we are talking about those as well), perhaps you are right in being skeptical. But at the end of the day, there are a few "gifted" designers who can be successful across multiple aspects of a system design. So I would say, let it go, we know virtually nothing about EA's designer and especially his cable-design qualifications to make a judgement. Find flaws first somewhere in his designs, then question his abilities somewhere else in the chain.

 

[Orb]

This is the type of mindset that is absolute nonsense. Because someone is designing $200,000 loudspeakers they are therefore qualified to design cables, or anything else? Do you think Jack Oclee-Brown, the Head of Acoustics at KEF, a PhD in Loudspeaker Acoustics who's studied and written extensively on waveguide behavior, is less qualified because his designs only go to $30k or so? Really? There is more advanced research at KEF than . . . nevermind.

And BTW, while some folks are "testing drivers" they bought, guys like Oclee-Brown are designing drivers from the ground up themselves. So much for the ". . . pursuit of the ultimate reference . . . "

The point here is equating price with performance -- in high-end audio -- is hogwash. And that extrapolates to the "pursuit" of performance too.

Something you touched upon in the article and an aspect that I feel is a primary consideration; recent high-end really cannot be compared to the older days because of the influence of technology on design-build-manufacturing and also critically the consumer foot print that has been in major decline for several decades that sadly influences prices - the positive is how Devialet has shown it is possible to have great pricing but how much of this is also down to their business approach-practice-logistics and not just controlled-defined product margins as the manufacturer and for sales channel (distributors-dealers).
This has caused an evolution within high end and these days can no longer be as generalised as in the past; by this I mean high end covers a much wider spectrum of the price range than ever before and also attainable at a much lower price (when considering quality and performance/engineering), and we have also seen high end stretch to the other extreme with stratospheric pricing possibly with the intention of making greater profit to survive in a diminishing main audio market.

That said I am not defending the insane prices, but Jeff I think you would agree that the Q7 is probably worth its price, and there would be other SOTA-statement products that fit into that bracket and upper price, which unfortunately at times is lost amongst the products that fall short in the way you show.
Pricing and design is an interesting point; Look at KEF with their Blade prototype that they said could never be taken into production due to the costs involved, however it is fortunate they found ways to change the materials/manufacturing process so that they could then build at high end prices although we will never know if that is a subtle compromise in performance to the original Blade concept build.

Just curious, does anyone in the business know how Devialet's product margins (manufacturer/distributor/dealer) compare to other respected high end electronic audio manufacturers?
Would be interesting to know how much their price is influenced by this and also their business-research-manufacturing-logistics model.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff, Frantz - I would leave some room for error in your comments re: EA cables. It is quite conceivable that the EA designer is approaching his cable designs as an extension of his crossovers, thus not outright disqualified as a cable designer. He may even go as far as adjusting the crossover based on the length of speaker cable purchased. With respect to interconnects (and I am not sure if we are talking about those as well), perhaps you are right in being skeptical. But at the end of the day, there are a few "gifted" designers who can be successful across multiple aspects of a system design. So I would say, let it go, we know virtually nothing about EA's designer and especially his cable-design qualifications to make a judgement. Find flaws first somewhere in his designs, then question his abilities somewhere else in the chain.

I have no opinion of the EA designer and do not even know his name. He may be brilliant. My point was that just because he designs $200k speakers it does not naturally follow that he is qualified to design cables. Or speakers for that matter.

 

[microstrip]

IMO overhere there are enough audiophliles who will equate price with performance , secondly mostly they need a guru whether it be a magazine or a dealer!!

IMHO they are a very small number -WBF membership is very knowledgeable in stereo maters. Secondly, no problem - they will easily find new gurus...

 

[audioarcher]

IMO overhere there are enough audiophliles who will equate price with performance , secondly mostly they need a guru whether it be a magazine or a dealer!!

I think in general most feel that way when they first enter the hobby. Experience eventually teaches us otherwise.

 

[Bruce B]

I have no opinion of the EA designer and do not even know his name. He may be brilliant. My point was that just because he designs $200k speakers it does not naturally follow that he is qualified to design cables. Or speakers for that matter.

You'd be surprised at the cable "designers" with no formal training.

 

[rockitman]

Ironic since Nelson Pass doesn't say this re: FirstWatt vs Pass.

Sure First Watt is great if I wanted to use hyper efficient lunch boxes for speakers. I prefer realistic scale as delivered by my current large flagship speakers.

 

[PeterA]

Sure First Watt is great if I wanted to use hyper efficient lunch boxes for speakers. I prefer realistic scale as delivered by my current large flagship speakers.

Alon Wolf selected FirstWatt amps and a Pass preamp to demonstrate HIS flagship speaker which happens to be huge. I don't think scale will be an issue for the Magico Ultimate3. I don't think the FirstWatt amps or your Pass XS 150 amps would likely ever be compared in the same system by customers, but I'm sure NP has an opinion about their relative sonic capabilities. I remember a quote from him where he says something to the effect that more watts don't necessarily lead to better quality.

Magico used the X350 amp with the Mini speaker and the FirstWatt amps with his flagship U3. I think both are considered solidly in the high end, though they represent quite different price points.