Is there really a good reason for Samsung and Apple fans to hate each other?

[amirm]

This anti-Apple stuff is pretty ridiculous. If you don't like their products, don't buy them.

Come on Tim. We come here to talk about stuff like this . It is like someone telling you to say nothing about high-end products because you don't like them .

A) First of all, the stuff is not really proprietary.

What is the new dock connector? I have USB on mine. I can get the specs for that and build my own device. Can I do that for iPhone 5?

Arrogance? The only people who ever say that are the ones who don't use the stuff.

I use it Tim. I am not inclined to love it so I don't give it a pass on what it doesn't do well. My son was coming to CEDIA conference and taking classes there. They had the material online in PDF format. He comes and asks me: "dad, how do I save the file that I have opened in the browser?" Hmmm. There is no save button. Next he asks, "how do I see the share on my PC?" Hmmm. No way I can think of to browse for files let alone remote ones on a PC. Sure, some people sell apps but they want money. I google online. I see people say you can use iBook to read pdfs. Apple's Safari doc online says the same saying there should be a pop up in Safari letting me save to iBook. I see no icon. By now it is near midnight and we are leaving the next day.

We had not used the thing for a while so my son thought maybe the newer software has such feature. So I go and try to upgrade it. Hmmm, there is nothing in setup on the device on upgrading itself like there is on my Android. Then I remember this thing is slave to a PC/iTunes. I don't have iTunes on my laptop so I go and get that. 80 Megabyte download and app that wants to take over my media types later, I get the thing up and running. Hook up the iPad and it says it will upgrade it. I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Then I get this warning about some programs/settings may not be saved because this is not the original PC that was used to originally initialize it (that PC is long gone). I ignore it in the interest of time thinking I can re-install the few bits I had on it. Then this long download process starts.

Now it is 1:00am in the morning and the update is finished. Finally! I fire up the browser and go the site again and read the PDF. Again no way to save to iBook! I am going mad by now. I am tired, have a flight in a few hours and I still can't figure out how to save a bloody file on this device. I mean we have had this ability for a few decades in computing devices. Why is it so hard?

Then it hits me. But it can't be. Can it? Is it really possible that an "i-app" is not installed by Apple in its own device??? Yup. iBook is not there by default on iPad!!! Of course, they could not bother to say that on the Safari help page. OK, so I go to download it. Well, no go. It pops up asking me what my Apple ID is. Apple ID? This is a free app from Apple. What the heck is it asking me this for? I can download any free app on Android with no login. Are they trying to see how frustrated they can still make me?

I try to guess my Apple ID password to no avail. So I tell it I forgot it. Bad mistake. Mother of all password resets pops up now. It reminds me of setting up secure banking. Must be the recent hacks into Apple ID because it took me good 10 minutes to get through all the pot holes it put in front of me to get this darn thing. I eventually set it and downloaded iBook.

Meanwhile my son had packed his laptop and no longer needed the thing . I brought it with me anyway. The first day I used my laptop and took notes right on top of the PDFs. You can do that with adobe reader. Try to do that with iBook. No can do. I put it aside and used my 3 pound Z series laptop for the rest of the show. I had a full keyboard, could easily multi-task, checking email and such in one window as I was browsing the PDFs in another.

Those who do find products that are extremely user-friendly and one of the best customer-service experiences they've ever had.

Not for me. See above.

I can't personally find room for the word arrogance in the experience at all.

It is there at its core Tim. Its chief used to bring that as virtue. I see the brilliance and the arrogance side by side. They have a dominant position and want to maintain it. The lawsuits, etc, are all designed to protect that. It *is* arrogant to say that the mere shape of a device is protected even if the law is on their side.

 

[Keith_W]

Well said, Amir. Here is another anecdote - just last week I was interstate when they told me last minute that they wanted me to do a talk ... in 2 days! I had nothing with me except my Android phone and my laptop. No problem, I used my phone to access my home computer where I have a repository of lectures. I downloaded one of them to my phone and simply walked up to the podium and connected my phone to the PC with a USB cable. I told my phone to mount as a portable HDD, and the PC simply recognized it (with NO driver software, no iTunes, nothing!) and opened the folder. I downloaded the Powerpoint presentation to the PC and off we went.

If you want an example of "it just works" ... this is it. No intrusive desktop software required, everything syncs automatically to my gmail account.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Well said, Amir. Here is another anecdote - just last week I was interstate when they told me last minute that they wanted me to do a talk ... in 2 days! I had nothing with me except my Android phone and my laptop. No problem, I used my phone to access my home computer where I have a repository of lectures. I downloaded one of them to my phone and simply walked up to the podium and connected my phone to the PC with a USB cable. I told my phone to mount as a portable HDD, and the PC simply recognized it (with NO driver software, no iTunes, nothing!) and opened the folder. I downloaded the Powerpoint presentation to the PC and off we went.

If you want an example of "it just works" ... this is it. No intrusive desktop software required, everything syncs automatically to my gmail account.

Damn...I need to figure out how that works!

 

[Keith_W]

Damn...I need to figure out how that works!

I was using Motocast (special feature of Motorola phones). But ... you can use one of these.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I was using Motocast (special feature of Motorola phones). But ... you can use one of these.

Thanks Keith! Reading through it now!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It took me awhile to figure out that you were talking about an iPad, Amir. Yeah it's a totally different interface. It is not a computer, so it doesn't work like one. That can be daunting. It took me a bit to figure out how to set up folders in pages. i actually had to read the three page manual.

After the first 30 minutes, tops, you should have just called support. Ten minutes later you would have been done.

For future reference, there's only one hardware button on an iPad. Push it and it shows you all the applications on the device. The applications that are not on the device become self-evident.

Tim

 

[asiufy]

Tim pointed a very interesting thing. Folks who have computer experience are the ones that usually struggle with Apple's products, as they demand them (the user) to behave in a specific (albert intuitive) way. If the Apple way goes counter to their habit, "Apple is bad and monopolistic and this and that and that other one too".
BUT, for most folks, who don't care about computers, and aren't used to any specific way of doing things, the iPhone/iPad/iOS thing was a huge boost. Since we're sharing anecdotes, I have people in my family, from 3 years old nephew to 80 years old, my father, who just picked up and iPad and used it to its fullest. No manual, no computer necessary. Just used it. Downloading apps, sharing stuff, etc.
And KeithW's case could be replicated with an iPad, by itself. No laptop. I know because I do that. I don't travel with a laptop anymore, even though I have a 13" MacBook Air that's very light indeed. The iPad takes care of everything. Even presentation, as I can plug it to an HDMI or VGA monitor, and even control it remotely with my iPhone.
And Amir, I use Dropbox to store my important files, instead of doing it like KeithW's and leaving my computers are home connected all the time. So, I have folders full of PDFs in Dropbox. I don't keep them all in iBooks, simply for organisation's sake, but I could've. Anyway, when I need a file, I just hop on to Dropbox, pick the file I want, and if I have the appropriate reader app on my iPad, it'll open by itself. In your case, you needed the iBook app, or any other app that'd be able to read PDFs (there are tons). Besides, I don't remember being able to do ANYTHING in Android without a Google account, so your bit there about the Apple ID is not really justified...


alexandre

 

[Steve Williams]

It took me awhile to figure out that you were talking about an iPad, Amir. Yeah it's a totally different interface. It is not a computer, so it doesn't work like one. That can be daunting. It took me a bit to figure out how to set up folders in pages. i actually had to read the three page manual.

After the first 30 minutes, tops, you should have just called support. Ten minutes later you would have been done.

For future reference, there's only one hardware button on an iPad. Push it and it shows you all the applications on the device. The applications that are not on the device become self-evident.

Tim

I agree 100% Tim

Their customer service is second to none and yes it is those with computer skills who tend to get lost with an ipad

 

[Keith_W]

Alex, I have an iPad. There is no way I would use it for emails. It might be OK for typing a short missive, but it is completely useless for writing correspondence. For that, you need a proper keyboard. It is also pretty useless for my type of work, which requires several webpages open at once and the ability to switch between them and the word processor or email program. This is why I travel with a laptop. iPad is only good for reading webpages, documents, or magazines when I am relaxing on the sofa or in bed. It was never meant as a serious work machine.

My laptop is a Thinkpad X301, which is getting a bit old but it was the lightest fully functional notebook in its class when it came out. It is as slim and light as the equivalent Macbook, but has a DVD drive built-in, as well as a card reader and multiple USB ports. Also unique for its time - it has a 3G modem built-in. I just turn it on and it connects to the internet. There is no way I would swap it for a Macbook which costs more, does less, and has fewer software options. Macbooks are for hipsters who want to look good in coffee shops, not for people who want to do work.

 

[FrantzM]

Printing with an iPad is more complicated than it ought to be ... Saving a web page is impossible or close to it .. No Flash support ... Let's not get carried away the iPad needs to improve in the ease of use department as for most PCs products ..the least said the better.

I can't fault Apple for milking the customers as much as they can ... The absence of a simple thing as an USB port is hard for me to stomach as is the impossibilty of secondary storage .. The iPad is a nice product but not yet a replacement for a good laptop... For now I need both and frankly loved the Amazo Fire for what it did for my purposes .. The iPad remains a superior product in the here and now but Android is moving and fast ...
I love the Apple interface but for work, most of the software I use require a PC ... So PC it goes for now but the design of the Apple laptops and other products as well as their "feel" feel remain superior to any PC I have experienced and this count for an object you use continuously ...

 

[Steve Williams]

The iPad is a nice product but not yet a replacement for a good laptop

That was never the intent and it is wrong to suggest such

 

[asiufy]

Alex, I have an iPad. There is no way I would use it for emails. It might be OK for typing a short missive, but it is completely useless for writing correspondence. For that, you need a proper keyboard. It is also pretty useless for my type of work, which requires several webpages open at once and the ability to switch between them and the word processor or email program. This is why I travel with a laptop. iPad is only good for reading webpages, documents, or magazines when I am relaxing on the sofa or in bed. It was never meant as a serious work machine.

My laptop is a Thinkpad X301, which is getting a bit old but it was the lightest fully functional notebook in its class when it came out. It is as slim and light as the equivalent Macbook, but has a DVD drive built-in, as well as a card reader and multiple USB ports. Also unique for its time - it has a 3G modem built-in. I just turn it on and it connects to the internet. There is no way I would swap it for a Macbook which costs more, does less, and has fewer software options. Macbooks are for hipsters who want to look good in coffee shops, not for people who want to do work.

Keith_W, that's all perfectly valid. After all, no machine or solution is 100% good for 100% of the population.
If it doesn't work for you, and still must carry that laptop around, I feel your pain, as I used to do that. Fortunately, for my use case, I don't need to. I write emails (5-10 daily), touch up proposals, presentations and spreadsheets. And, of course, enjoy some fine, confortable reading on that awesome Retina display
In fact, I started leaving the MacBook at home as soon as I got the iPad 3. That screen spolied me for life, and it was only now that I got the 15" Retina MacBook that I'm able to enjoy reading and working on the laptop again...
And Keith_W, you must learn to stop with the generalisations. It's been proven again and again that the iPad is not only good for reading. Heck, there's a text editor for programmers out there, so there's people coding on these things.
It is a serious work machine for SOME people, it's just not FOR YOU. So, if you stopped with the generalisations, your posts would start making a lot more sense.
Your condescending tone regarding Apple products are hilarious. "MacBook are for hipsets in coffee shops". Yeah indeed. I guess mine are lost from the herd, since I never took them to a coffee shop...
Again, you're happy with whatever piece of sh*t PC you carry around, and I've been happy with Mac laptops for about 14 years now, so obviously they're doing you some good, and it'd be foolish for me to try to convice you otherwise, same as you look foolish trying to convince me your piece of sh*t Lenovo is a real computer while my beautiful 15" Retina MacBook isn't...


cheers,
alexandre

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Again, you're happy with whatever piece of sh*t PC you carry around, and I've been happy with Mac laptops for about 14 years now, so obviously they're doing you some good, and it'd be foolish for me to try to convice you otherwise, same as you look foolish trying to convince me your piece of sh*t Lenovo is a real computer while my beautiful 15" Retina MacBook isn't...


cheers,
alexandre

Are you sure you've never been to that coffeeshop?

 

[asiufy]

Pretty sure, and I'm also sure I had Lenovo (and IBM before that) laptops, and worse still, I had to SERVICE them...
So no thanks, I'll keep my mostly trouble free Macs...


alexandre

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Pretty sure, and I'm also sure I had Lenovo (and IBM before that) laptops, and worse still, I had to SERVICE them...
So no thanks, I'll keep my mostly trouble free Macs...


alexandre

That's how I feel about the PC's I've owned....mostly trouble free.

 

[amirm]

Besides, I don't remember being able to do ANYTHING in Android without a Google account, so your bit there about the Apple ID is not really justified...
alexandre

You need one initially but never for free app downloads. Click on an app install and boom, you are done (after hitting OK for things the app may access). I hate having to type my user ID and password into Apple's. With strong passwords, it is a pain in the neck to type them. It is hard to explain in words how annoying that Apple pop up is when you have gotten used to not ever having to type it.

BTW, I also have mass/automatic update of apps and one-click update/notification for others that are not set up to be automatic. Has apple done that or do you still have to manually remember to search for an update and install one by one?

Your other point about who is happy with iPad must be true. That folks use them as large iphones. And don't know or care that other experiences exist which in some cases are superior.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The absence of a simple thing as an USB port is hard for me to stomach as is the impossibilty of secondary storage

This has long been Apple's weakness. I remember when they prematurely decided that computers didn't need floppy drives anymore. They were right, but the timing sucked. I remember when they went to firewire; I was a bit surprised they didn't force all of us to go with them. Their laptops have a power supply that plugs into the computer with a proprietary plug. It's better, no question about it, but if it breaks and you're nowhere near an Apple store, you can't drop by Radio Shack and get something that works. I'm sure they're convinced that their interface is better than USB; hell, it probably is. But it's still inconvenient that it's not USB. But they think you're supposed to only use the thing wirelessly, that all your files and devices are connected to a computer, that the iPad is a portable device. And they are not going to be very flexible about it. I wondered if that approach would soften with the loss of Jobs. Not yet. Personally, it doesn't bother me a bit; all of my files and devices are attached to computers and I do access them from my iPad wirelessly. So I'm good.

The iPad is a nice product but not yet a replacement for a good laptop

Which is the answer to your questions above. Though actually, mine is a replacement for a good laptop, sort of. Faced with my son using my MacBook all the time I had to choose between another laptop and an iPad. I chose an iPad knowing only one of us would have a keyboard at a time, but that I could read the news, watch a movie and make short posts on WBF while he his doing his homework and that he could look at whatever it is he looks at on YouTube while I'm using the MacBook. It has been a really good solution for us.

Tim

 

[amirm]

Again, you're happy with whatever piece of sh*t PC you carry around, and I've been happy with Mac laptops for about 14 years now, so obviously they're doing you some good, and it'd be foolish for me to try to convice you otherwise, same as you look foolish trying to convince me your piece of sh*t Lenovo is a real computer while my beautiful 15" Retina MacBook isn't...


cheers,
alexandre

Let's cut down the emotions please. I should note that I am in the market for a Mac laptop. Not to replace my PCs but to program the main automation system we use at work now (savant: see http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?6590-Introduction-to-Home-Automation). I can't tell you how shocking it is to be stuck with the few choices that apple offers. I am so used to the wide landscape of models that are available in PC world and of course at very attractive price points. More importantly, I am spoiled with massive discounting. You would not believe my shock and horror to see that a Best Buy (major US retailer) "sale" price for a MacBook to be just $6 off of the suggested retail price. No, you read that right. I got an email notification from BBY that it was on sale only to see that is how much they have discounted it.

This reminds me of retailers complaining bitterly about Apple's business model. A major retailer would insist on 35% margin on stuff they carry. They would tell me that for the identical category, Apple would only give them 22%. If they complained, Apple would threaten to not given the enough stock for Christmas of iPads, etc. Retailers had no choice but to capitulate because a) apple would proceed to sell the same at their stores so they would get the sale and b) Apple products brought customers in the door so they could sell them other things. You might ask so what? Well, so what is that no one else could compete with Apple because even if they matched Apple's cost structure, their retail price had to be higher than Apple's because of the higher retailer margin! Imagine trying to sell against Apple with higher retail prices. It won't happen and did not happen.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

A major retailer would insist on 35% margin on stuff they carry. They would tell me that for the identical category, Apple would only give them 22%. If they complained, Apple would threaten to not given the enough stock for Christmas of iPads, etc. Retailers had no choice but to capitulate because a) apple would proceed to sell the same at their stores so they would get the sale and b) Apple products brought customers in the door so they could sell them other things. You might ask so what? Well, so what is that no one else could compete with Apple because even if they matched Apple's cost structure, their retail price had to be higher than Apple's because of the higher retailer margin! Imagine trying to sell against Apple with higher retail prices. It won't happen and did not happen.

Sure they can match Apple's cost structure; they just have to produce a product that a) Is going to sell all they can manufacture whether that particular retailer caries it or not, and b) they have to produce a product so desireable that it drives traffic for the store.

Tim

 

[Keith_W]

Again, you're happy with whatever piece of sh*t PC you carry around, and I've been happy with Mac laptops for about 14 years now, so obviously they're doing you some good, and it'd be foolish for me to try to convice you otherwise, same as you look foolish trying to convince me your piece of sh*t Lenovo is a real computer while my beautiful 15" Retina MacBook isn't...

Wow! So much ... anger!! So much ... hate!!

Let's see what accessories you have to carry around with you to replicate the functionality of my X301

- no built-in 3G modem? Right, you have to carry a USB 3G modem.
- no built-in CD/DVD burner? Righto, external CD/DVD burner then. And don't forget the power supply!
- no built in CF card reader? Yep, another one for the list.
- no built in RJ45 jack? Right, you need a USB to RJ45 adapter then!
- no GPS? Is GPS even available for the Mac?
- What's that? You're out of USB ports? Add a port replicator to that list!

Your slim Macbook isn't looking so slim with a bag bulging with accessories now, is it

Note that I can swap the CD/DVD burner for an extra battery if I need to. I just need to undo one screw, then the optical drive module slides out, and I can slide an auxillary battery in. Add to that the simplicity of servicing this thing. Soon after I bought the laptop, I decided to upgrade the memory. I ordered the RAM and Lenovo shipped it to me with instructions on how to install it. Simple - remove the battery, and the slot for the RAM is just sitting there. Same thing when I decided to upgrade the HDD to a SSD. I received the SSD in the mail and swapped it over myself. No need to visit a Smartarse Bar or whatever they call it.