Is the Measurement Forum the place for objectivists to be attacked by subjectivists?

DonH50

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To be fair, a lot of medical equipment uses power cords with hospital-rated plugs (natch) and have heavier outer insulation for protection. I have rarely seen a shielded or otherwise filtered power cord on say an ultrasound or EKG unit but do not claim any experience beyond my own. I have some experience with ultrasound, MRI, PET, various ECG/EKG systems, and chromatograph units in labs (no X-ray machines), but the vast majority of my experience is with electronic R&D dealing with signals from DC to many GHz. The units themselves require extensive shielding, and there have been some cases where they were not up to the task (even some industry leaders have been bit). But the solutions were inside the box, not replacing the power cord. Again IME, which is relatively small for medical electronics, large for scientific instruments.
 

Jinjuku

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To be fair, a lot of medical equipment uses power cords with hospital-rated plugs (natch) and have heavier outer insulation for protection. I have rarely seen a shielded or otherwise filtered power cord on say an ultrasound or EKG unit but do not claim any experience beyond my own. I have some experience with ultrasound, MRI, PET, various ECG/EKG systems, and chromatograph units in labs (no X-ray machines), but the vast majority of my experience is with electronic R&D dealing with signals from DC to many GHz. The units themselves require extensive shielding, and there have been some cases where they were not up to the task (even some industry leaders have been bit). But the solutions were inside the box, not replacing the power cord. Again IME, which is relatively small for medical electronics, large for scientific instruments.

I hear ya'. I don't think anyone is arguing against well engineered P.C.'s. It's just the silly last 3 feet argument trotted out as to promote power cables in the hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

An over built P.C. would be most likely $40.
 

audioguy

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I was a power cord believer for a very long time. Not because I had actually heard a good power cord but because every audio periodical I read told me that power cords made a difference. So about 15 years ago or so, when I had a high end income to keep us with my high end audio hobby, and lots of equipment that used power cords (more than 30 of them), I made the jump. I replaced every single factory provided power cord with, what at the time, was considered one of the best - at least according to all of the reviews. And I changed them all at the same time. And I must confess I was a blown away. I HEARD zero difference. Was my system high enough in resolving power to hear the difference? YES? I had the 4 piece dCS system, $30,000 speakers, in a dedicated room with dedicated power, etc. An audio friend who was very familiar with my system heard what I heard. Since the audio world was telling me that power cords made a difference, my expectation was that I would hear the positive difference. I did not.

I am NOT saying their is no difference in power cords but I am saying that to my ears (and my friend's ears which are 10 years younger than mine), I could hear no difference.

In fairness to the power cord swap, I had installed highly rated power conditioners on all of my equipment prior to swapping power cords - and that change was very audible. So maybe had I performed the power cord swap prior to the installation of the power conditioners, I might have experienced different results.

I now use conventional large gauge shielded power cords on everything. I can get much, much more improvement to my listening experience by making small adjustment to my Dirac target curves - and it only costs me time, is very blind A-B able and repeatable!

Clearly my experience does not line up with many others.
 

Gregadd

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I hear ya'. I don't think anyone is arguing against well engineered P.C.'s. It's just the silly last 3 feet argument trotted out as to promote power cables in the hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

An over built P.C. would be most likely $40.
As power cord critics go you are in the minority. Most arguments I have seen claim anything more than zip cord is silly.
Pardon me if I don't care to repeat the whole case for power cords every time I am challenged by a skeptic.
Yoy can't make the case against power cords by citing ridiculous examples. In a capitalistic economy a successful market invites speculation. I suppose I'll could use a cya phrase like "a competenly designed fairly priced " cable. I think that phrase is already copyrighted by the other side.:b
 

Gregadd

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Don it begs the question what does "standard" mean to you as stated in the above posts. To me standard means zip cord like that attached to my household lamp.
 

Jinjuku

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As power cord critics go you are in the minority. Most arguments I have seen claim anything more than zip cord is silly.
Pardon me if I don't care to repeat the whole case for power cords every time I am challenged by a skeptic.

You don't have to repeat anything. Sit down for a SBT evaluation.
 

Gregadd

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DonH50

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Don it begs the question what does "standard" mean to you as stated in the above posts. To me standard means zip cord like that attached to my household lamp.

Not my area of expertise, far too long ago when I was a licensed electrician, and not something I have spent much time researching. Standard as in whatever is typically shipped with the equipment, which I assume meets various UK/IEC/NEC/etc. standards, but I was not using "standard" in the sense of a specific engineering standardized specification. These are typically heavy-gauge twisted wires (usually three for hot, neutral, and safety ground) with a protective outer sheaf. Which means I have to concede your point; these are not "audiophile" power cords, but are a clear step above zip cord, that is true. The twisting provides some measure of common-mode noise rejection that simple zip cord does not.

In a house, power lines are sometimes twisted pairs (or triads), but often flat Romex or similar, usually not in conduit (not required in-house). All the noise can couple up to that last three feet or whatever, and of course there is loss getting from power plant to your outlet, thus the last three feet argument. A counter is that, if the power cord includes filtering at the point of service, then you can make the argument that the power cord is a line filter applied just before the power goes into the component. I do not think it is a very good argument from the point of view of designing a well-engineered design, and there are better ways and places to filter, but it is a valid point. That said, I have very rarely seen filtering included in a power cord, and none of the test equipment in our lab has such cords.

One other reason a good power cord can benefit a system, other than just replacing a grossly underrated cord (too light for the current flow), is by providing a better ground path. Some cords use a very light safety ground wire since it normally carries essentially no current. A heavier ground wire provides a lower impedance path to the outlet ground, which may or may not be beneficial for things like ground loops.

Commercial installs may use more conduit, especially where shielding is needed for noise or protection (of users and/or equipment). I have a friend who's career was power electronics and he spent the last decade or three working with hospitals. The wires are not really anything special but a lot of attention is paid to putting them in conduit, taking great care in outlets (locking), and generally making sure power integrity is maintained. He helped build screen rooms for things like MRI and PET scanners as well as some of the bigger ultrasound units (a lot of folk might not realize that "ultra" is way up there, like 60 MHz carriers). It doesn't take a thousand-dollar power cord but it takes darn good engineering.

So for me there are benefits to be had of the power cord is not up to its task, but buying the $10 cord instead of the $1 Wal-Mart version is usually enough of an upgrade for my ears of clay, at least for my audio system.

BTW, similar arguments can be made for power outlets, where higher-end versions may include filtering and make more positive connection to the plug. Unless you are running kW of power and/or have badly oxidized or loose sockets you are unlikely to hear any difference IMO, and again a good industrial grade plug is probably all that is needed.

Like so many things in audio, science can be used to prove or disprove most anything, but you will never prove anything to someone (not you Gregg, a generic "someone") who has already made up their mind. And that works both ways; I'll go out on a limb and note that AFAIK I have never said "all amplifiers sound alike" but have opined that the majority of SS amps driving the majority of speakers sound close enough to be considered identical for all practical purposes. Techie friends who hold the "all the same" opinion can be quickly converted by picking a speaker with a complex load impedance and then trying a few amps (always fun to throw a tube amp in the mix). I have never heard a difference with a power cord swap unless the original was defective, but that's IME/IMO. I have poo-poo'd things audio in the past that turned out to be real, measurable things that good engineering could fix. So a I remain a skeptic (and am from Missouri) but try to keep an open mind.

Even on power cords... - Don
 

Gregadd

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Thanks Don.
What if you use some sort of power conditioner? Can it be argued at least that premium pc might be useful to preserve whatever the conditioner has done?
Just an aside I remember this saying. " I have done so much with so little for so long ,I am now qualified to do anything with nothing." I wonder what l could accomplish in audio if I had the best of everything. That's best not most expensive.
 

DonH50

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Well, you can argue anything (cue Monty Python :) ). Disclaimer: I do not know a lot about audio power conditioners. Power electronics is not really my field.

If your environment has high EMI/RFI then potentially a shielded or at least twisted power cord could help preserve whatever noise filtering the power conditioner has done. I have no idea how much that matters in the real world, and again in my career I've had to ensure my designs are insensitive to power-line noise (some flight power generators/supplies can be obnoxious noise generators). If the noise on the power line is mostly low in frequency and/or amplitude such that there is insignificant radiated energy, and you are not in a very high noise environment, then the power cord after the conditioner won't matter (within reason).

One issue I have run across is when a line conditioner/filter limits current flow, effectively "choking off" a power amp. An even sneakier issue is when a current surge exceeds the saturation of the big power chokes in the filter, leading to really ugly waveforms at the output of your "conditioned" supply.

EMI/RFI shielding is a problem for components through more than just the power cord. When flipping a light switch, or refrigerator, on and off causes a pop in your system it may be a radiated problem that no power cord will fix. Or not. Phono inputs are especially susceptible to noise; very high gain, the cartridge acts as an antenna, and the wires from cart to TT connector are rarely shielded (but are usually twisted pairs, and the signal is inherently balanced).
 

Gregadd

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PS I Googled hospital grade and industrial grade power cords. I think hosp. grade is called green- dot. Connectors are good but wire is is usually 16-18 gauge. Prices were sub 100 dollars.
 

fas42

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I have no idea how much that matters in the real world, and again in my career I've had to ensure my designs are insensitive to power-line noise (some flight power generators/supplies can be obnoxious noise generators). If the noise on the power line is mostly low in frequency and/or amplitude such that there is insignificant radiated energy, and you are not in a very high noise environment, then the power cord after the conditioner won't matter (within reason).
IME in the "real" world of typical audio equipment, and listening the more one does to prevent noise ingress the better. Don is suggesting that the real answers are to engineer the components well enough so there isn't an issue, and I 100% agree. My own low tech approach has been a combination of very low cost methods that various people who are audio enthusiasts have suggested over the years; and Spice simulations of what the behaviours of circuits are when "hit" with bad power, etc, and engineering a reasonable solution to that.

I have yet to experience an audio setup where putting effort into improving the quality of the electrical environment hasn't caused an audible change, for the better - the biggest challenge is to reach optimum without being silly about it ...
 

FrantzM

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Fitzcaraldo215

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I was a power cord believer for a very long time. Not because I had actually heard a good power cord but because every audio periodical I read told me that power cords made a difference. So about 15 years ago or so, when I had a high end income to keep us with my high end audio hobby, and lots of equipment that used power cords (more than 30 of them), I made the jump. I replaced every single factory provided power cord with, what at the time, was considered one of the best - at least according to all of the reviews. And I changed them all at the same time. And I must confess I was a blown away. I HEARD zero difference. Was my system high enough in resolving power to hear the difference? YES? I had the 4 piece dCS system, $30,000 speakers, in a dedicated room with dedicated power, etc. An audio friend who was very familiar with my system heard what I heard. Since the audio world was telling me that power cords made a difference, my expectation was that I would hear the positive difference. I did not.

I am NOT saying their is no difference in power cords but I am saying that to my ears (and my friend's ears which are 10 years younger than mine), I could hear no difference.

In fairness to the power cord swap, I had installed highly rated power conditioners on all of my equipment prior to swapping power cords - and that change was very audible. So maybe had I performed the power cord swap prior to the installation of the power conditioners, I might have experienced different results.

I now use conventional large gauge shielded power cords on everything. I can get much, much more improvement to my listening experience by making small adjustment to my Dirac target curves - and it only costs me time, is very blind A-B able and repeatable!

Clearly my experience does not line up with many others.

No, your experience lines up somewhat closely with my own, and apparently also to a fair number of others here. Sure, there are inexpensive things that most anyone can do to make sure they have sufficient, unimpeded amperage, properly grounded. That, and modestly expensive, overspec'ed power cords can do no harm without breaking the bank.

Aside from power cables, and unlike you, I have also yet to hear the stunning advantages of power conditioning, as claimed by many, but possibly some people who are victims of being far from power company substations/transformers or otherwise poor power quality just might gain some advantage from power conditioning. I have not, but my mind is open to the possibility. I do use it, in spite of hearing no discernible sonic advantage.

The point is that the claimed advantages from this whole phenomenon seem to feed more on audiophile paranoia and suggestability than anything else. At the same time, this has been a goldmine for guys selling solutions to a problem that is at best not widespread, except to the extent the suggestion has been planted in audiophile minds. Many subjective reviewers have fanned the flames with glowing reviews of power cords and other power tweaks, based on the usual, totally uncontrolled listening. And, measurements? Forget that. What do they say and who needs them?

If someone hears a big difference with power tweaks in their own system, they should go for it. But, if others of us do not hear it, what does that say?

BTW, audioguy, I am with you in many other ways, as well. Multichannel is tops.
 

Gregadd

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We can talk a lot about what should happen What of the Audiophile who is sitting in his living right now with a product in front of him?
I don't like to say it however it is entirely possible (probable) that any given sysyem is incapable of resolving the differences.
 

Robh3606

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I don't like to say it however it is entirely possible (probable) that any given sysyem is incapable of resolving the differences.

Hello Gregadd

You must realize just how circular that is kinda of like a dog chasing his tail?? You want the resolution so spend more money. Is that what we are talking about?? I find it very interesting because I have more than one system of different price points. The biggest differences are in the speaker driver technologies and materials. My "best" stuff uses beryllium drivers that are damn expensive compared to their aluminum or titanium brothers. I can hear a difference but it's subtle. I have just as much enjoyment listening to the lower cost systems even though they are not as resolving as the Be systems. Were the more expensive components worth it?? To me they were but maybe not the next guy. As long as you are happy with what you have does it really matter what anyone thinks??

I am a card carrying objectivist/subjectivist because you need a balance of both. As far as the topic of the thread as long as it stays civil a little healthy discourse isn't going to hurt anyone.



Rob:)
 

Gregadd

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If you are card carrying objectivist / subjectivist ,one of those groups needs to revoke your membership.
Absolutely, your system should make you happy at the expense of everyone else , if need be.
One of the reasons I said I was reluctant to cite lack of resolution in a system as a reason for not hearing a difference in anything is because inevitably someone's feathers get ruffled. It is an udeniable fact. Different systems have different leels of resolution. Nowhere did I tie the level of resolution to price. If so please quote me.
 

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