Tom, interesting things can be done with 2 pairs of mains: Linkwitz is playing with that now, I started a thread on it.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Watson/watson.htm
Frank
Is Speaker height important to creating realism?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Watson/watson.htm
Frank
100% correct, I have owned 66 & 94 inches high Acoustat's i loved both BUT there is something very special with ALL 94 inches models, here are a few pictures of me with my 1+1s and my friend's Spectra 8800s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S04n66Gr6bs
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Hello, Frank. Although I can respect that, the same issue(s) remains. Only with more issues and deficiencies introduced. Why bother?
I purchased Magnapan speakers because they presented an image with what I consider the correct height. I got tired of listening to Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins and the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and Choir at the 3 feet level.
jazzbo
jazzbo
Hey guys, this speaker won FIRST place best in show from Audiophilia at T.A.V.E.S. 2012 on the weekend not quite as high as mine just one foot shorter but still love is in the air up there. 
-----Those will be my next speakers. :b ...Seriously.
* Andre, where can I get them, what are they named, and how much can I get them for?
...Six feet high?
* Andre, where can I get them, what are they named, and how much can I get them for?
...Six feet high?
Hi Bob they are called Audio Exklusiv P3.1 they are 6.4 feet high 11 inches wide 12 inches deep they weigh 64 pounds and now the bad news retail price $15,000.00 or the model P6.1 for $22,000.00
http://www.charismaaudio.com/products/audio_exklusiv/p31.htm
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-----Thanx Andre, something for me to explore further.
And yes that retail price is steep. But I'm sure some negotiations can be arranged. :b
I will devour, unravel them, inside out!
This is the first time I have seen this thread.
I have to say height matters. My listening room has a partially angled ceiling extending from 8 feet to 11 feet in height.
I have a real problem with speakers that have their drivers stacked from woofers on the floor to midrange in the middle to tweeters higher up. I clearly hear the frequencies stacked up from low to high as I listen. I find it very distracting.
Finally, there's a reason they call small speakers "bookshelf" speakers. It's because if you put them on the floor, the whole soundstage presentation is messed up.
Most speakers should be elevated somewhat. Doing that also moves the woofers a bit farther from the floor which will have the added effect of smoothing out their room response.
I have to say height matters. My listening room has a partially angled ceiling extending from 8 feet to 11 feet in height.
I have a real problem with speakers that have their drivers stacked from woofers on the floor to midrange in the middle to tweeters higher up. I clearly hear the frequencies stacked up from low to high as I listen. I find it very distracting.
Finally, there's a reason they call small speakers "bookshelf" speakers. It's because if you put them on the floor, the whole soundstage presentation is messed up.
Most speakers should be elevated somewhat. Doing that also moves the woofers a bit farther from the floor which will have the added effect of smoothing out their room response.
I agree.
The guy sitting in the chair listening to the Maxell cassette is NOT how one should listen to music.
Good Wed. Morning NorthStar,No, I don't listen standing up. However, I get a good replication of the exact height Miles Davis trumpet should be. Sonny Rollins tenor sax is at the correct height. And, the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and Choir appear where they should be from my seating position. When I had box speakers I had to raise them up on stands in order to get reasonable positions for musicians. Here are my modified Magnapan 1.6 speakers. I love them. Have a great day audio friend.
jazzbo
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Is speaker height important to realism relative to what? Listening from row 1, looking up at the performers? From the balcony looking down? Oh...somewhere between the extremes. It's probably best if the mids and highs (the directional stuff) are at a height that's in the vicinity of your ears. Your speakers will sound better that way. Realism relative to actual instrument positions? Coltrane's sax comes out at waist level. Miles' trumpet comes out at head level. Your drivers don't move.
Tim
Tim
I've heard wonderful single tweeter setups, and some image very well. But for me, tall line sources deliver the most realistic imaging and 'realism'. As Tim asks above, ones sense of 'realism' depends on frame of reference.
If using a symphony hall as reference, middle of the floor, orchestra at ear-level, then large line-sources are IME required to get realism. Never heard a point-source speaker quite deliver the magic.
On studio recordings, well done soundscapes (Steven Wilson owns this space) are rendered beautifully with line-sources in well set up rooms. My own MatinLogan setup has been optimized to render these recordings with as much soundspace coherence a possible. And on recordings like Wilson's Grace for Drowning BluRay, instruments are placed inside and well outside the circle of speakers, extending well beyond the room boundaries in some cases. I believe that the six foot tall speakers and over 72 square feet of radiating surfaces in a well treated room is what enables delivering that experience. I don't believe I could achieve that soundstage with point-source speakers, regardless of quality or cost.
If using a symphony hall as reference, middle of the floor, orchestra at ear-level, then large line-sources are IME required to get realism. Never heard a point-source speaker quite deliver the magic.
On studio recordings, well done soundscapes (Steven Wilson owns this space) are rendered beautifully with line-sources in well set up rooms. My own MatinLogan setup has been optimized to render these recordings with as much soundspace coherence a possible. And on recordings like Wilson's Grace for Drowning BluRay, instruments are placed inside and well outside the circle of speakers, extending well beyond the room boundaries in some cases. I believe that the six foot tall speakers and over 72 square feet of radiating surfaces in a well treated room is what enables delivering that experience. I don't believe I could achieve that soundstage with point-source speakers, regardless of quality or cost.
I agree, but would just add that neither the point source nor the line source is realistic. They are just very different illusions, one which works better imitating very large scale music/halls another which can render a more natural scale for smaller ensembles/rooms. MHO. YMMV.
Tim
The best soundstage, including magic and height, that I have listened to was using point source speakers - the Quad ESL63 driven by OTLs.
And I have owned Apoggee's, MG3.3 and several models of SoundLabs. I remember that Apogee even had a receipt and included a plumb-line to set the correct image height.
We had this debate in WBF before. IMHO, height is also created in recordings by an "illusion" effect - not just by the position of the speakers in the loudspeakers. The proof is given by some Dynaudio loudspeakers that have reversed speaker positioning (tweeter close to the floor and bass at top) and the treble frequencies seem to be sourced from the top of the speaker. Some recordings in appropriate systems have clues enough to create an illusion of 3D to the point you are easily perceiving the instruments with correct height - perhaps also because you expect them to be at this position. Listened in the wrong system they seem flat and boring. IMHO, if you ignore psychoacoustics you can not explain why some people claim they perceive height in a recording and some do not.
Again IMHO, and surely some (or many?) will disagree with it, source, electronics and cables also participate in the creation of the height illusion.
Tim,
Yes, it is true most of the time. But some speakers in adequate rooms seem to be able to recreate both the large and the smaller ensemble/rooms.
Having not heard all speakers in all rooms, I'll just take your word for it and avoid a repeat of the "height" discussion.
Tim
---Very nice feedbacks from the members here.
=> Here's what I believe is a good tip on speakers' positioning regarding height and realistic soundstage filling:
If you have direct radiating speakers; towers or monitors on stands, that are between roughly 33 inches and 55 inches high, tilt them up. ...Just a bit, experiment. Put spikes only on the front (towers or speaker stands). ...Or if on a wood floor, rubber feet that are taller on the front.
Some (many) music studio recordings use professional monitors that are higher than ear level.
The bass might be slightly better balanced too, and the mids more in unisson with the real space (recording venue, and listening room).
And a room with a higher ceiling that is not at constant height (like from 8 to 11 feet for example) is a nice attribute.
A clear and clean tweeter/midrange loves on and off axis and all the space of your room.
* Me, I think I also prefer a good Auto Room EQ now (in the year 2012).
And room treatments are mostly my own natural environment with the decorations, furnitures, draperies, carpets, paintings, etc., and they are in constant state of experimentation and evolution. ...For mainly my own personal aural pleasure (preference). Looks and Sounds.
...If the 'smart' technics to position everything at their right places in space (including the measurement positions of the microphone) are done diligently, you are putting yourself ahead of the 'sound curve'.
And if your ahead, then your head is also higher than your shoulders. ...Give music a lift, get some height to it!
...And choose wisely. ...Not only your loudspeakers, but EVERYTHING else.
...In harmony with your room and ears. :b ...At a higher level. ...Spiritual & Real.
=> Here's what I believe is a good tip on speakers' positioning regarding height and realistic soundstage filling:
If you have direct radiating speakers; towers or monitors on stands, that are between roughly 33 inches and 55 inches high, tilt them up. ...Just a bit, experiment. Put spikes only on the front (towers or speaker stands). ...Or if on a wood floor, rubber feet that are taller on the front.
Some (many) music studio recordings use professional monitors that are higher than ear level.
The bass might be slightly better balanced too, and the mids more in unisson with the real space (recording venue, and listening room).
And a room with a higher ceiling that is not at constant height (like from 8 to 11 feet for example) is a nice attribute.
A clear and clean tweeter/midrange loves on and off axis and all the space of your room.
* Me, I think I also prefer a good Auto Room EQ now (in the year 2012).
And room treatments are mostly my own natural environment with the decorations, furnitures, draperies, carpets, paintings, etc., and they are in constant state of experimentation and evolution. ...For mainly my own personal aural pleasure (preference). Looks and Sounds.
...If the 'smart' technics to position everything at their right places in space (including the measurement positions of the microphone) are done diligently, you are putting yourself ahead of the 'sound curve'.
And if your ahead, then your head is also higher than your shoulders.
...Give music a lift, get some height to it!...And choose wisely. ...Not only your loudspeakers, but EVERYTHING else.
...In harmony with your room and ears. :b ...At a higher level. ...Spiritual & Real.
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