Is Kickstarter and Indiegogo Anti-Capitalist?

[dallasjustice]

I know many think Capitalism is a political word. I am not using it in any political sense. Capitalism is the free exchange of value for value without committing fraud or theft between individuals. One of the necessary elements to Capitalism is for the Capitalist to be willing to take a personal risk in exchange for the hope to make a financial or other personal gain. At least in theory, anyone who invests money in the stock market is entering into a typical Capitalist transaction whereby they invest money in a business hoping to receive a future financial gain whilst risking potential financial loss.

I know the justification for borrowing money from future customers to discover whether a market even exists seems to be compelling logic. Risking hundreds of thousand of dollars can be very scary. My experience, however, is that same fear of personal financial destruction can be a very powerful motivator. Fear of losing it all in pursuit of a big financial reward tends to sharpen the mind and stiffen the back. Those that risk losing their personal money tend to make sure they are meeting their customers' expectations. This concept is known as the Capitalist feedback loop. This feedback loop is a very fundamental aspect to Capitalism.


Is donating to a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign a Capitalist undertaking? Is there a hope of personal future gain in exchange for the donation? Does buying a product not yet designed or manufactured in an Indiegogo or Kickstarter campaign from a manufacturer fit with the traditional Capitalist risk/reward gamble?

Michael.

 

[ar-t]

The only thing that strikes me as possibly "anti-capitalist" is when a bunch of rich, aging hippies, who have more than enough money to start...............uh, I dunno............a high-res alternative to an iPod, want poor folks like me to fund their venture.

If they are so confident in it, why isn't their money at risk? Maybe they aren't so confident about it to begin with.

What is that old saying...................."Nothing ventured, nothing gained"? They should either put up or shut up. Instead of begging.

I'll stop there, since some of the folks involved might be reading this, and they have my phone number..................

But, the odds are they already know what I think.

 

[mep]

I know many think Capitalism is a political word. I am not using it in any political sense. Capitalism is the free exchange of value for value without committing fraud or theft between individuals. One of the necessary elements to Capitalism is for the Capitalist to be willing to take a personal risk in exchange for the hope to make a financial or other personal gain. At least in theory, anyone who invests money in the stock market is entering into a typical Capitalist transaction whereby they invest money in a business hoping to receive a future financial gain whilst risking potential financial loss.

I know the justification for borrowing money from future customers to discover whether a market even exists seems to be compelling logic. Risking hundreds of thousand of dollars can be very scary. My experience, however, is that same fear of personal financial destruction can be a very powerful motivator. Fear of losing it all in pursuit of a big financial reward tends to sharpen the mind and stiffen the back. Those that risk losing their personal money tend to make sure they are meeting their customers' expectations. This concept is known as the Capitalist feedback loop. This feedback loop is a very fundamental aspect to Capitalism.


Is donating to a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign a Capitalist undertaking? Is there a hope of personal future gain in exchange for the donation? Does buying a product not yet designed or manufactured in an Indiegogo or Kickstarter campaign from a manufacturer fit with the traditional Capitalist risk/reward gamble?

Michael.

Isn't the "personal future gain" that you are buying in on a future product at a price that won't be available later?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I bought into the Geek Pulse DAC and I'm not impressed. Still haven't received any billing info for my next payment (which was done back in December). I've written them and commented on the Indiegogo page...no replies.....nothing...nada.

All I get is updates of how wonderfully they are progressing, but there is no MEAT to the notices. All they seem to be concerned about is people buying more Perks. I don't want the perks...I want the unit, so answer my damned question, which they still haven't.

 

[mep]

It is a gamble John and hopefully you will receive an actual unit that works.

 

[JackD201]

Well John, if you do get a unit and I'm pretty sure you will, have some comfort in that the price you paid will be lower, yup, lower than the distributor price. I know because I already got the distributor prices.

If there's anybody that should be irked it is us distributors. The campaigns even in the philippines have already reached our most interested clients. All that's left for us is to maybe wait for these guys to move up to Da Vincis. At 30k I think we can all agree the chances of that happening are quite slim. It's a totally different market segment.

Well, that's life…...

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

It is a gamble John and hopefully you will receive an actual unit that works.

I'll be honest Mark....I have no faith in them. And these are the guys that produced a world-class DAC with the DaVinci (LH Labs), which is what got me interested.

 

[JackD201]

Larry Ho, the LH in LH, is a member here John. Have you PMed him? Scott and the gang are jumping through hoops with everything going on. Go straight to the top of the ladder and take advantage of your WBF membership hehehehe.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Well John, if you do get a unit and I'm pretty sure you will, have some comfort in that the price you paid will be lower, yup, lower than the distributor price. I know because I already got the distributor prices.

If there's anybody that should be irked it is us distributors. The campaigns even in the philippines have already reached our most interested clients. All that's left for us is to maybe wait for these guys to move up to Da Vincis. At 30k I think we can all agree the chances of that happening are quite slim. It's a totally different market segment.

Well, that's life…...

I feel for you Jack, because this campaign must feel like a stab in the back for you and your fellow distributors. Why LH Labs felt a need to go this route still puzzles me. I personally feel they'e done themselves more harm than good...and that's just not me talking. People are pissed about this campaign.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Larry Ho, the LH in LH, is a member here John. Have you PMed him? Scott and the gang are jumping through hoops with everything going on. Go straight to the top of the ladder and take advantage of your WBF membership hehehehe.

Thanks...I might just do that.

I'm not looking for anything special...I just want to be kept informed.......they're failing miserably in that department.

 

[taters]

I know many think Capitalism is a political word. I am not using it in any political sense. Capitalism is the free exchange of value for value without committing fraud or theft between individuals. One of the necessary elements to Capitalism is for the Capitalist to be willing to take a personal risk in exchange for the hope to make a financial or other personal gain. At least in theory, anyone who invests money in the stock market is entering into a typical Capitalist transaction whereby they invest money in a business hoping to receive a future financial gain whilst risking potential financial loss.

I know the justification for borrowing money from future customers to discover whether a market even exists seems to be compelling logic. Risking hundreds of thousand of dollars can be very scary. My experience, however, is that same fear of personal financial destruction can be a very powerful motivator. Fear of losing it all in pursuit of a big financial reward tends to sharpen the mind and stiffen the back. Those that risk losing their personal money tend to make sure they are meeting their customers' expectations. This concept is known as the Capitalist feedback loop. This feedback loop is a very fundamental aspect to Capitalism.


Is donating to a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign a Capitalist undertaking? Is there a hope of personal future gain in exchange for the donation? Does buying a product not yet designed or manufactured in an Indiegogo or Kickstarter campaign from a manufacturer fit with the traditional Capitalist risk/reward gamble?

Michael.

It's been going on for years in one form or the other. It's official name is OPM.

 

[dallasjustice]

Isn't the "personal future gain" that you are buying in on a future product at a price that won't be available later?

When hope replaces earnings and donations replace capital investment, I don't know what that's called. I just know it's not called Capitalism.

 

[JackD201]

When exactly does buying at a deep discount become a donation?

 

[JackD201]

Thanks...I might just do that.

I'm not looking for anything special...I just want to be kept informed.......they're failing miserably in that department.

No excuse for that. They should have at least set up an automatic newsletter with regular updates for all the subscribers. That way they wouldn't have gotten buried by the deluge of requests.

If you are reading this Larry, you know I love you guys but I'm just being honest here. It's not too late to do it.

 

[dallasjustice]

When exactly does buying at a deep discount become a donation?

Jack,
I never mentioned LH anywhere so I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend them with me. This thread is about kickstarter and indiegogo in general.

I think people that pay money for any campaign are not engaged in a real Capitalist business transaction. I think it's really the people that pay for the hope to receive what they paid for that are making the biggest mistake of all the campaigns I have seen, not the manufacturer that setup the campaign.

You and MEP insist on looking at only the purported benefit to the so called buyer. As I've shown above in my original post, the feedback loop is essential to real Capitalism. I know it's not popular these days for an entrepreneur to actually lose huge amounts of money in pursuit of their dreams. I blame the so called buyers more than anyone since they foolishly have expectations for performance which they shouldn't have if they carefully examined the situation.

 

[beaur]

When hope replaces earnings and donations replace capital investment, I don't know what that's called. I just know it's not called Capitalism.

Unless you decide to give a dollar there are no donations on any of the campaigns I have participated in. The model seems to be that a small business uses the "crowd" instead of venture capital to judge the market. Once enough buyers come in production starts and if the people are good updates are sent. If not enough buys commit the project fails. Sounds like capitalism to me. The danger I see with large campaigns like PONO is that they saturate the market before shipping and therefore there isn't a real market for the product after the campaign ends. To date all the successful projects I have participated in have viable products after the end of the campaign that they are selling.

I don't get the worry about delivery. What's the difference between handing a Kickstarter campaign your money for a project or handing it to a contractor or say a small custom furniture builder? You are trusting all to complete something you want but cant do yourself.

 

[dallasjustice]

I understand your example about custom furniture. I once waited 9 months after paying in full to receive a Hancock and Moore sofa and recliner chair.

With regard to LH, if they promised a January delivery and delivered tomorrow, their customers' expectations probably have not been met. I paid for expensive audio gear in full before and not received it in a similar time frame. I asked for my money back and I got it back from my dealer. I still do business with that dealer to this day.

Unless you decide to give a dollar there are no donations on any of the campaigns I have participated in. The model seems to be that a small business uses the "crowd" instead of venture capital to judge the market. Once enough buyers come in production starts and if the people are good updates are sent. If not enough buys commit the project fails. Sounds like capitalism to me. The danger I see with large campaigns like PONO is that they saturate the market before shipping and therefore there isn't a real market for the product after the campaign ends. To date all the successful projects I have participated in have viable products after the end of the campaign that they are selling.

I don't get the worry about delivery. What's the difference between handing a Kickstarter campaign your money for a project or handing it to a contractor or say a small custom furniture builder? You are trusting all to complete something you want but cant do yourself.

 

[jkeny]

I know many think Capitalism is a political word. I am not using it in any political sense. Capitalism is the free exchange of value for value without committing fraud or theft between individuals. One of the necessary elements to Capitalism is for the Capitalist to be willing to take a personal risk in exchange for the hope to make a financial or other personal gain. At least in theory, anyone who invests money in the stock market is entering into a typical Capitalist transaction whereby they invest money in a business hoping to receive a future financial gain whilst risking potential financial loss.

Woah there a second. You do know that 90% of the stock market transactions are flash trades - nothing to do with investing in a business. Your statements about the stock market & capitalism in general are quaint & ideological but maybe not realistic - how many of the stock market transactions are actually of help to the company & how many are pure gambling? As regards capitalism, do you really believe it is as fair & level a playing field as you portray?

I know the justification for borrowing money from future customers to discover whether a market even exists seems to be compelling logic. Risking hundreds of thousand of dollars can be very scary. My experience, however, is that same fear of personal financial destruction can be a very powerful motivator. Fear of losing it all in pursuit of a big financial reward tends to sharpen the mind and stiffen the back. Those that risk losing their personal money tend to make sure they are meeting their customers' expectations. This concept is known as the Capitalist feedback loop. This feedback loop is a very fundamental aspect to Capitalism.

Do you really think this system serves anybody when it favours the few who, by having enough, are able to risk some money without consequence? Edit: Do you really think that the modern form of capitalism, as it is currently practised, benefits society, as a whole?

Is donating to a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign a Capitalist undertaking? Is there a hope of personal future gain in exchange for the donation? Does buying a product not yet designed or manufactured in an Indiegogo or Kickstarter campaign from a manufacturer fit with the traditional Capitalist risk/reward gamble?

Michael.

Why is this even a question? Why do you hold the capitalism model forth as "the model"? Perhaps crowd-sourcing is a useful & viable alternative? Personally I see it as an interesting way to gauge the market & avoid the banking/investment sector whose interest is NOT the business/product

 

[Steve Williams]

FWIW..........

This 3D Printer Has Gone Crazy On Kickstarter, Raising Nearly $2.5 Million In Just Four Days

By Julie Bort, Business Insider

The Micro 3D Printer

A 3D printer called The Micro, from a company called M3D, has gone absolutely nuts on Kickstarter. It has raised an astounding $2.47 million over the past four days and blew by its $50,000 target in less than 11 minutes.

This certainly isn't the first low-cost, consumer-grade 3D printer to go wild on Kickstarter. The FORM 1 raised nearly $3 million in 2012. Plus, the Buccaneer raised $1.4 million in 2013 and the the RigidBot 3D Printer raised $1.1 million in 2013, too.

So what's so special about M3D's 3D printer? M3D says it's packed a lot of innovation into a low price. While it hasn't said what it will charge consumers once it gets the printer into production, people who contributed on Kickstarter could get one for as low as a $199. There are still some available for a $299 contribution, too.

M3D is using the money to finish the prototype and set up manufacturing in the U.S., it says.

The speed at which this company got its funding is amazing.

It's the fifth-fastest Kickstarter project to date to hit a $1 million, according to researcher Statista. The Micro hit $1 million in 25 hours. That compares to game console Ouya, which hit $1 million in 8.22 hours and watch computer Pebble’s 27 hours.

 

[mep]

I had to go back and reread the opening paragraph to this thread to focus in on the issue raised. I guess the bottom line is that I don't care if Kickstarter is deemed as "anti-capitalist." So what? Who cares? I see it as a viable tool for business people who don't want to sell their souls to venture capitalists. If people didn't see value in kickstarter ventures, none would be funded.