Is imaging the same as "sound stage" and does it require cleaner electronics?

[muralman1]

Even delicate speakers tell you when you aren't giving them pure power. Mine use to rattle and buzz. They haven't since my last adjustments.

On what is going on here..... I don't get it. Are we alone? I clicked on your site and didn't get anything.

 

[Gregadd]

Oh dear ...

Vince, I think we've lost them all! It appears they have all run away to this thread, as started by Gregadd above: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...2578#post32578

But we tried, we did try ...

Frank

No way. There is a gun shot on my Telearc CD of the Nutcracker. I forgot to listen to it this Christmas.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Oh dear ...

Vince, I think we've lost them all! It appears they have all run away to this thread, as started by Gregadd above: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...2578#post32578

But we tried, we did try ...

Frank

Sorry, gentlemen, I had to go to work. Frank, I agree with you, except where I disagree with you . I agree that low level distortion is the enemy. Most of it, I believe, in otherwise high quality systems, is in poor driver control and passive crossovers (which is sort of redundant). It's also in excessive complexity. Stacks of boxes with redundant resistors, capacitors, power supplies and wires, linked together by more wires, should be considered at odds with audiophile goals...yet it is the standard! Drives me to distraction.

I don't think systems necessarily have to play loud to sound right, but on the other hand, the audiophile obsession with smooth and warm is misguided in my view. I spent 30 years as a working musician and I'm here to say that an unmuted trumpet, or a crash cymbal, going off a few feet from your head is neither "warm" nor "smooth.: It is startlingly intrusive, and if your system has warmed it or smoothed it, it has failed.

What else?

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim-The way you described your listening setup was that you sit one meter (approx. 3') from your speakers and your speakers are 1 meter apart. I think that is about as close as you can come to speakers used as headphones as you can get. It sounds like your stereo is set up on top of your computer desk and you just push your chair back a bit. Is this the case or are you speakers stand mounted in open space in room and you have a chair situated so that you are sitting 3' from the speakers?

I listen to headphones a lot, and proper near field imaging is very different. Most of the time I have the speakers set up on a desk top, similar to the way near field monitors would be set up at a recording desk, but I've tried them out in a room on stands as well. As long as there is sufficient room behind the listening position and to the sides of the speakers, and as long as measures are taken to avoid reflections off of the desktop, the differences between the two set ups are not significant, because the direct sound of the speakers completely overwhelms first reflections. I've even tried damping points of reflection on side walls and the back wall. It makes little difference. Near field, with enough room behind the listener, may be the most effective room treatment of all. But I am listening to the recording, and the speakers, not the room. I like it, but adding the room into the mix has its virtues, especially with dipole and bipole speakers.

Tim

 

[mep]

I listen to headphones a lot, and proper near field imaging is very different. Most of the time I have the speakers set up on a desk top, similar to the way near field monitors would be set up at a recording desk, but I've tried them out in a room on stands as well. As long as there is sufficient room behind the listening position and to the sides of the speakers, and as long as measures are taken to avoid reflections off of the desktop, the differences between the two set ups are not significant, because the direct sound of the speakers completely overwhelms first reflections. I've even tried damping points of reflection on side walls and the back wall. It makes little difference. Near field, with enough room behind the listener, may be the most effective room treatment of all. But I am listening to the recording, and the speakers, not the room. I like it, but adding the room into the mix has its virtues, especially with dipole and bipole speakers.

Tim

So was that a yes to my question that your speakers are mainly on top of a desk and you just scoot your chair back a bit when you listen to your stereo?

 

[fas42]

I was also away, for a quick bit of shopping, and lo and behold, on the very, very ordinary car radio: Dire Straits, Brother in Arms: Money for Nothing. Perfect!! Wound up volume full bore, at least 50% distortion I would reckon, but gee, it felt good!

This is all in respect to test recordings mentioned earlier: about as perfect a test track as any is the intro to that song. You should be able to wind up the volume of that at home: that soft, floating start, then it builds and builds to a massive crescendo with drums pounding in a massive accoustic, until it feels like the drivers in your speakers are about to explode, the roof to peel off, and the windows and doors burst out of their frames. Then Mark Knofler's guitar comes in with that sharp, biting distortion pedal sound and his soft, low key voice almost lulls you to sleep. Beautiful stuff!! And it should come out as clean as a whistle, the impact of a decent PA system with the clarity and lack of distortion(!!) of a well set up high end system.

As good a test as any! Vince, have you tried this one with the accelerator pedal pressed down hard?

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

So was that a yes to my question that your speakers are mainly on top of a desk and you just scoot your chair back a bit when you listen to your stereo?

Yes, they are that way most of the time, though I've tried them there and on stands in an open room.

Tim

 

[fas42]

30 years as a working musician and I'm here to say that an unmuted trumpet, or a crash cymbal, going off a few feet from your head is neither "warm" nor "smooth.: It is startlingly intrusive, and if your system has warmed it or smoothed it, it has failed

So if you play a recording of exactly the sort of band, and music, you were part of, and were generating, back then does it sound anything like it came across to you at that time?

Frank

 

[DonH50]

I spent 30 years as a working musician and I'm here to say that an unmuted trumpet, or a crash cymbal, going off a few feet from your head is neither "warm" nor "smooth.: It is startlingly intrusive, and if your system has warmed it or smoothed it, it has failed.

Hey, I resemble that remark! Although, an unmuted trumpet can sound pretty "warm and smooth" -- depends on the music and the player. I got compliments on my warm "cornet/flugel" sound on a soft lyrical solo and bright high fanfares at the last concert, and it was the same horn. The mind is a wonderful thing, hope I find mine again... Crash cymbals, or my playing lead in a big band, well, yeah!

 

[A.wayne]

I don't think systems necessarily have to play loud to sound right, but on the other hand, the audiophile obsession with smooth and warm is misguided in my view. I spent 30 years as a working musician and I'm here to say that an unmuted trumpet, or a crash cymbal, going off a few feet from your head is neither "warm" nor "smooth.: It is startlingly intrusive, and if your system has warmed it or smoothed it, it has failed.

What else?

Tim

+10

 

[fas42]

It's all good, Vince, we are obviously NOT alone. I also mucked up that link, but it doesn't matter now ...

When you say "rattle and buzz" do you mean the ribbons of the Apogees actually rubbed against each other or touched the frames? Doesn't sound quite right to me ....

Frank

 

[muralman1]

Frank, you will agree with me, the gunshot has to spring extremely loud from from the body of the music. It has to have you jump for cover. My speakers have a big trapezoid panel to do bass. That is where the rattling and buzzing originates. It was just under-powerd amps, and spurious signals that caused the cacophony.

 

[fas42]

My speakers have a big trapezoid panel to do bass. That is where the rattling and buzzing originates

Trouble is, it still doesn't make sense what the actual mechanism creating that bizarre distortion is. Guess I don't understand how ribbon speakers work in the physical sense well enough to understand what's going on. Probably, the ribbons misbehave when they can't suck enough current from the amp, from what you're saying ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

Trouble is, it still doesn't make sense what the actual mechanism creating that bizarre distortion is. Guess I don't understand how ribbon speakers work in the physical sense well enough to understand what's going on. Probably, the ribbons misbehave when they can't suck enough current from the amp, from what you're saying ...

Frank

I think all drivers be they stats, ribbons, cones or domes will flap/buzz/rattle/resonate at some point. Every driver is attached to a frame somehow. When the vibrations hit the frame they will be directed back to the diaphragm causing that rattling and buzzing as a result of their physical limits. I also think that in dynamic bass drivers it isn't as common because normally these drivers will hit their thermal coil limits before the cones themselves ring because of their more pliant surrounds as opposed to ribbons and stats that are stretched and clamped.

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[muralman1]

My ribbons, the vertical mid ribbon and tweeter ribbons sit stone cold on even the most dynamic notes. Interestingly, I have an amateur recording of a female opera singer that sends the ribbons into a curl. That is because of really obnoxious brightness added by the cheap microphone used.

 

[JackD201]

That would qualify as an instance that pushes them to their limits. It probably happened to the microphone too during recording. It can happen to any transducer from Mics, cartridges to loudspeakers. Thankfully our normal listening habits don't have us pushing these limits. The unpleasantness of the distortions make us back off way before stuff like this happens.

 

[Steve Williams]

OK Gentlemen

I am not going to post in green to serve as a warning but I want everyone to know that it was me that deleted many of the posts here.

This is a very interesting thread and let's get it back on topic.

Anything further will result in a "warning" based on violation of our TOS and the thread being closed

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

OK Gentlemen

I am not going to post in green to serve as a warning but I want everyone to know that it was me that deleted many of the posts here.

This is a very interesting thread and let's get it back on topic.

Anything further will result in a "warning" based on violation of our TOS and the thread being closed

Thank you.

Tim