How real does it sound?

[AJ Soundfield]

Soundfield, I suggest you tone down the character of your posts and follow our TOS. Pretty easy if you want to play in the sand box otherwise before you know a whole lot of people might be calling your speakers into question. Just a suggestion

Duly noted Steve, will reread TOS and do my best. Thanks for allowing me to last this long, I'm surprised.
Yes, of course it's expected that mandatory misdirections will always lead to my loudspeakers, no surprise there!
Amp sound warm up???.....look!, look!!, over here!! AJ's speakers!

cheers,

AJ

 

[microstrip]

I think with these two recent posts from stehno and AJ Soundfield, this thread is going nowhere fast and will die a sudden death. Too bad.

Time to put is back on track with a quote from Laurence Dickie of Vivid Audio. http://www.monoandstereo.com/2012/11/exclusive-interview-with-vivid-audio.html

Matej Isak Is classic music the top most test material for state of the art reproduction?

Laurence Dickie The equipment should be able to reproduce all music accurately but acoustically recorded music has the advantage that you can easily compare to the real thing. Having said that, I feel that certain types of music can work better on a loudspeaker which adds a little character; in particular I feel that mid 70s funk and heavy metal doesn’t always sound right on a very clean system, but then it was probably mixed on speakers with two 15” bass drivers and a 100mm dome compression driver on a big horn so you might expect it to sound more correct on the same sort of speaker.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Time to put is back on track with a quote from Laurence Dickie of Vivid Audio. http://www.monoandstereo.com/2012/11/exclusive-interview-with-vivid-audio.html

Matej Isak Is classic music the top most test material for state of the art reproduction?

Laurence Dickie The equipment should be able to reproduce all music accurately but acoustically recorded music has the advantage that you can easily compare to the real thing. Having said that, I feel that certain types of music can work better on a loudspeaker which adds a little character; in particular I feel that mid 70s funk and heavy metal doesn’t always sound right on a very clean system, but then it was probably mixed on speakers with two 15” bass drivers and a 100mm dome compression driver on a big horn so you might expect it to sound more correct on the same sort of speaker.

as well as my relatively large room and large dynamically capable system can do large scale classical; I think that it's small combo jazz recorded live, in a relatively small club, where the suspension of disbelief comes closest to the live experience. and I think it's mostly a limitation of the recording side of things which allows for the small combo-small space jazz to do the trick more fully. and we are only speaking here of degrees of closeness to the 'feeling of being there'.

I have three 'live' 15ips 1/4" master dubs of Ben Webster in a jazz club that are very 'live'. they are live to 2 track and have a rich ambient bed of air and presence. it can get spooky good.

 

[stehno]

Save your breath, man. Your credibility is shot here.

Fritz, this is just too slapstick. Some guy (AJ) who probably isn’t much different than Ethan Winer and without perhaps any credentials comes along and attempts to discredit me because he thinks cable lifters and cryo-treated products are snake oil, and yet my product has zero to do with either? Then you jump on his nonsensical bandwagon? How the frick does something like this fit into Peter’s “Audio Science” thread? The only logical conclusion is that “high-end” audio includes far more Ethan Winer types than I even thought.

It probably never even occurred to you that the very cables you (and AJ) are using right now may be cryo’ed but don’t know it?

But in case you don’t know, the Ethan Winer types are those who listen with their eyes, easily impressed by the bling-bling, think all components and cables are the same and all are transparent to the signal, and think things like cable lifters and cryo-treated products are snake oil.

I’m going to let you in on a little secret. You know why guys like AJ and Ethan Winer listen with their eyes and think so many things in high-end audio are snake oil while other respectable types swear by such things? Because they lack the ability to discern what they hear and if they can’t hear it, others only hear it by power of suggestion. What’s worse is, rather than those types looking within to improve their skills, they instead look without in their attempt to drag everybody down to the lowest common denominator.

What is the title of this thread again? And whose bandwagon did you jump on? The guy who replaced nonsense for logic and lacks the ability to discern what he hears.

If anybody lost credibility here, Fritz, it’s you. Especially since it’s quite evident by your previous posts, excessive name calling, etc, that you were desperate to latch onto anything that might give the appearance of discrediting me. And you chose AJ whose credibility has already been brought into question as demonstrated in other threads.

But to be fair, I blame myself. For some reason I just assumed you were just a bit more seasoned than this. Boy, do I feel dumb.

 

[treitz3]

Okay, this stops here. Everyone involved with this thread please stop on the personal commentary, personal attacks and personal diatribe. Either stick to the topic of the thread or enjoy an involuntary vacation, courtesy of the WBF. It doesn't matter who said what first, it doesn't matter what has been said. What matters is that it stops and stops now. This is not up for debate. Thank you for adhering to the Terms of Service of this forum.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

I thought I would try to revive this thread. With recent improvements to a couple of great systems here on WBF, namely, MikeL's and Steve's, I wonder how real these systems sound to those who have heard them or own them?

Steve has just added a complete suite of new cables and reported that his system has never sounded better. And Mike has spent the last year fine tuning his room acoustics to where his system has never sounded better, and it really impressed our global trotter, Bonzo75 on a recent visit. Are these systems still a long way from sounding real? Are they starting to sound convincing and believable? What more will it take to get them to the next level?

I presume the intent for such systems is to provide joy to the owner and to his guests, and in this sense, they surely succeed. I have read that some members think there are too many obstacles to overcome, the recording process, two channel stereo, and others. These challenges will always prevent audio systems from ever sounding real.

I'm curious, do some members actually have the goal of making their systems sound real? I happen to think that it is indeed a part of the hobby for some people, even if as a goal, it seems elusive.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter,

as far as sounding more real, closer to live, and all that......I feel things lately in my system are closer (to 'live' and 'real') than they ever were......but that is not so much my intent. my intent has always been to try and get the system out of the way of the music. reproduced music is a different animal than the live event for a number of reasons. mostly simply because the recording and mastering process gives us something different than 'live' to have as a goal.

what I do feel that has happened in my system is that the reproduction chain has vanished from consciousness......and we are left with the music. part of this I believe is that I have tried so hard to avoid coloration or character in my system. whether a sense of tubes, or a sense of solid state, or whatever. and it's not about the character of a source, or an amplifier, or even a speaker or subwoofer or a tweeter. or a 'brand' sound or anything. and, importantly......I have aimed for no dynamic, or frequency response limitations, and enough space and power to allow the music to fully breathe.....and have ease and authority. so musical peaks are easy on the ears and body. and I have chosen speakers which are able to attain cohesiveness which (seem to) transcends tastes for other types of speakers.

and if you read comments about what visitors have said, it is about the overall synergy and lack of coloration and just that the event happens without restriction. you don't think about what some piece might do to improve what you hear; those considerations are beside the point. you think about the music.

and, of course, this is not to say that some other piece here and there might not be even better. only that no piece in the whole chain, or the room or power grid, is restricting anything. they are all competent at what they do.

I am not claiming any perfection......or a singular way that is the only way. likely other assemblies of other gear and a different room could and likely does do the same or better. only trying to put into words what I feel is happening, and to interpret feedback and the consequences of the whole picture.

 

[Steve Williams]

All roads lead to Rome and there are many ways to skin a cat. Having said that "real" has been my goal since visiting ddk in Utah 18 months ago. Can we achieve something as close to the real event? Maybe not but as long as there is suspension of one's disbelief in hearing the sound reproduction is for me where it's at. Timber and dynamics and the avoidance of coloration as well as reducing the sound floor to virtually non existent levels are what I am chasing to create that illusion and I feel I am darn close. The addition of the MB Ultra cable loom was for my ears the icing on the cake.

Here are the the changes that I have made in the past 18 months

1. Removed all butcher block as well as amplifier racks with graphite shelves

2. Removed all Stillpoints from under components and speakers. Respiked the speakers

3. All front and back end components now housed on CMS Black Diamond shelves and CMS QXK rack system

4.Replaced the stock carbon plate GM-70 tube on my ML 3 amps with a copper plate GM-70 tube on each amp.

5. Replaced my aging pair of NOS Telefunken ECC 803S with a literally brand new pair of ECC 803s

6. Replaced my existing speaker cable and interconnects and PC's with a full loom of MB Ultra cable. Hearing the cables in my system was nothing short of Revolutionary

7. Replaced my Furutech Rhodium AC outlets with Furutech gold for a more open top end

8. I find that I use my 12" SME 3012R arm and ZYX UNIverse Supreme ll cartridge most of the time rather than using my 10" Graham Phantom Elite with an Ortofon Anna as IMHO the sound is far more natural

Today I will begin to gradually introduce the new MB Ultra loom into my system over the next few weeks but having had the cables on loan previously in my system for 6 weeks I was shocked as to how uncolored and natural these cables are. The top and bottom extension as well as the overall saturation of the sound produced the most natural and lifelike soundstage I have ever heard in my system. Like Mike, my system is totally invisible and is out of the way of the music. I have never spent so much time in my sound room as I have lately and the MB Ultra cables are so mesmerizing that when I had them on loan my wife had to pry me out of my listening room.

So this is the closest I have gotten yet having said that all one needs to do is to take in a live concert or symphony to know what live music sounds like and no matter how great our sound systems are we just won't achieve the real event but I am darn close and loving every moment. The addition of the CMS racks has reduced my sound floor to virtually non existent levels and the addition of the new cables has created a natural and totally uncolored sound which I am loving

 

[Jeffy]

Who makes MB cables?

 

[DaveyF]

Peter, IMHO anyone...anyone with a decent set of ears is going to come to this conclusion in a heart beat once they compare the real to reproduced-----We are MILES away from getting close to the sound of the real. Not close, not even in the same zip code unfortunately. It is nice to pretend that our systems do compare very closely to 'live' unamplified music. That is the goal that most of us have ( I believe); but once confronted with the sound of the real instrument and the 'live' venue and sound, well it's a vast chasm...all IMHO.

 

[caesar]

Peter, you still at this stuff?!?

Everyone has their own conceptual mental model of how audio works - it's up to the individual's imagination to get their favorite speakers, amps, cables, footers, tubes, fuses, etc. As we discussed before, many people imagine that when they plug in their vacuum cleaner, the electricity flows like water from the wall into the appliance through the little black tube of the electrical cord. But that's not reality.

Here's another example - a computer spreadsheet program: people imagine that a spreadsheet scrolls new cells into view when they click the scrollbar. But nothing of the sort actually happens. There is no sheet of cells out there, but a tightly packed data structure of values, with various pointers between them, from which the application synthesizes a new image to display on the screen in real time.

The reality is that people form mental models that are simpler than reality. If using imagination helps enjoy the hobby, it's great. But let's accept reality that high end audio doesn't sound real. And, unfortunately, the emotions that result from listening to great stereo may approach real, but are not quite the same as real... Fun, but "real" only to those who imagined that system and others who happen to share that taste.

 

[Steve Williams]

Who makes MB cables?

Master Built

 

[PeterA]

Peter, you still at this stuff?!?

Everyone has their own conceptual mental model of how audio works - it's up to the individual's imagination to get their favorite speakers, amps, cables, footers, tubes, fuses, etc. As we discussed before, many people imagine that when they plug in their vacuum cleaner, the electricity flows like water from the wall into the appliance through the little black tube of the electrical cord. But that's not reality.

Here's another example - a computer spreadsheet program: people imagine that a spreadsheet scrolls new cells into view when they click the scrollbar. But nothing of the sort actually happens. There is no sheet of cells out there, but a tightly packed data structure of values, with various pointers between them, from which the application synthesizes a new image to display on the screen in real time.

The reality is that people form mental models that are simpler than reality. If using imagination helps enjoy the hobby, it's great. But let's accept reality that high end audio doesn't sound real. And, unfortunately, the emotions that result from listening to great stereo may approach real, but are not quite the same as real... Fun, but "real" only to those who imagined that system and others who happen to share that taste.

caesar, I think we all accept that reality. My question is actually different. Are the best systems getting closer to sounding real? And if so, how close are they? People acknowledge that they do not sound real. There is no controversy there. I guess there is no way to measure it, so subjective opinions are all over the place. Comments or attempts to answer how close the best systems are to sounding real are very divergent. Steve writes that his system is "darn close" while DaveyF writes "we are miles away". I am curious about why people have different views on this. Some think the best systems are no at all close, while others think they are pretty close. You don't have to be interested in the discussion, and the thread can certainly die a quite death, but I did find Steve's and Mike's posts interesting.

 

[caesar]

caesar, I think we all accept that reality. My question is actually different. Are the best systems getting closer to sounding real? And if so, how close are they? People acknowledge that they do not sound real. There is no controversy there. I guess there is no way to measure it, so subjective opinions are all over the place. Comments or attempts to answer how close the best systems are to sounding real are very divergent. Steve writes that his system is "darn close" while DaveyF writes "we are miles away". I am curious about why people have different views on this. Some think the best systems are no at all close, while others think they are pretty close. You don't have to be interested in the discussion, and the thread can certainly die a quite death, but I did find Steve's and Mike's posts interesting.

Peter, makes sense. My take is that obviously, if the guys are talking about it, it has probably added value to their individual listening experience.

I do wonder, however, what others would make of some of these super-systems... Guys who have been around, have well developed tastes. After all, rarely is there ever consensus in this hobby. Just read the show reports of what people like or don't like at audio shows...

 

[RogerD]

How many systems can reproduce this album well...



You have to design your system to do it well...and mine does extremely well with it. A system must move a lot of air and be able to do it with a ton of headroom to be spectacular. Is it live? no....it's better than live,why because I can't go to NYC and visit St.John the Divine Cathedral. Just my thoughts on live music reproduction.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, makes sense. My take is that obviously, if the guys are talking about it, it has probably added value to their individual listening experience.

I do wonder, however, what others would make of some of these super-systems... Guys who have been around, have well developed tastes. After all, rarely is there ever consensus in this hobby. Just read the show reports of what people like or don't like at audio shows...

Caesar, good point. There is rarely ever consensus in this hobby. That goes a long way toward explaining why these topics can be discussed for pages. Well, lack of consensus and strong opinions.

 

[caesar]

Caesar, good point. There is rarely ever consensus in this hobby. That goes a long way toward explaining why these topics can be discussed for pages. Well, lack of consensus and strong opinions.

That's why, objectively speaking about subjective experiences , unless one figures out their taste and finds kindred spirits who share that taste, one is the proverbial, mythical headless horseman, wandering aimlessly through the night, looking for his, never to be found head.

 

[stehno]

Peter, IMHO anyone...anyone with a decent set of ears is going to come to this conclusion in a heart beat once they compare the real to reproduced-----We are MILES away from getting close to the sound of the real. Not close, not even in the same zip code unfortunately. It is nice to pretend that our systems do compare very closely to 'live' unamplified music. That is the goal that most of us have ( I believe); but once confronted with the sound of the real instrument and the 'live' venue and sound, well it's a vast chasm...all IMHO.

A realist.

Who needs 'em?

 

[PeterA]

Peter, IMHO anyone...anyone with a decent set of ears is going to come to this conclusion in a heart beat once they compare the real to reproduced-----We are MILES away from getting close to the sound of the real. Not close, not even in the same zip code unfortunately. It is nice to pretend that our systems do compare very closely to 'live' unamplified music. That is the goal that most of us have ( I believe); but once confronted with the sound of the real instrument and the 'live' venue and sound, well it's a vast chasm...all IMHO.

DaveyF, My AM radio is certainly "miles" away from sounding real. My car radio is less far. Some poor systems at audio shows are even less far. Some good systems at dealerships are getting closer. Some great systems in private homes are even closer. The best systems playing superb recordings with the right music can sound pretty darn close. Not the same, no, but also not "miles" away, IMHO.

Some don't want to compare to real music, but to sounds or single tones. That's fine too. I have been fooled by the sound of a ringing telephone from my high definition TV. It sounded so convincing that I turned around to look for my cell phone hiding on the sofa.

I don't think anyone is claiming that our best systems are indistinguishable from the sound of real instruments. But I do think progress is being made and that the best systems are sounding more and more convincing and believable. That should be reason to celebrate. Vast chasms can mean different things to different people.

 

[DaveyF]

DaveyF, My AM radio is certainly "miles" away from sounding real. My car radio is less far. Some poor systems at audio shows are even less far. Some good systems at dealerships are getting closer. Some great systems in private homes are even closer. The best systems playing superb recordings with the right music can sound pretty darn close. Not the same, no, but also not "miles" away, IMHO.

Some don't want to compare to real music, but to sounds or single tones. That's fine too. I have been fooled by the sound of a ringing telephone from my high definition TV. It sounded so convincing that I turned around to look for my cell phone hiding on the sofa.

I don't think anyone is claiming that our best systems are indistinguishable from the sound of real instruments. But I do think progress is being made and that the best systems are sounding more and more convincing and believable. That should be reason to celebrate. Vast chasms can mean different things to different people.

Peter, I guess I come from an ex-pro musician's perspective. To me, when I listen to the sound of a real oboe or the sound of a real upright bass or on and on, I simply hear numerous aspects of tone and "expression" that I do not hear in the home system. To add to that, when I am in the audience at a symphony, I hear such a great "explosion" of sound that I believe my term "miles away" applies to the sound of our systems. I'm not saying that we have not made strides to get closer to the occasional 'fool me' moment. We absolutely have, but I think that we have a 'chasm' left to cross to get to the sound that I know as 'real'. Others, perhaps less musically trained, may not think so...which is great, because it will increase their level of enjoyment more.