How much does an amp contribute to 3D imaging?

[MylesBAstor]

The OP has no control over mic'ing/recording technique. He does have control over his room/speakers/amp though.

Actually what I find contributes the most to the sense of body is low frequency response and extension

 

[treitz3]

That's what the women say....

 

[garylkoh]

From what I recall listening to the Usher BE-10 (evaluating them as my competition), they are excellent at imaging - so I wouldn't look there if you are not satisfied with the 3D imaging. I would look at the room, and the speaker positioning first before looking at any of your components. Of course, you have to be sure that the recording you are expecting a great 3D image from has an image to start with.

If your rack is as tall as your loudspeakers, one of the first things I would do is to get that out of between the speakers to somewhere behind the plane of your ears. Then, optimize the placement of the speakers in the room. You might also want to look at the seat you are sitting in. Is the headrest above the height of your ears? The power amplifier would be further down the chain.

 

[FrantzM]

From what I recall listening to the Usher BE-10 (evaluating them as my competition), they are excellent at imaging - so I wouldn't look there if you are not satisfied with the 3D imaging. I would look at the room, and the speaker positioning first before looking at any of your components. Of course, you have to be sure that the recording you are expecting a great 3D image from has an image to start with.

If your rack is as tall as your loudspeakers, one of the first things I would do is to get that out of between the speakers to somewhere behind the plane of your ears. Then, optimize the placement of the speakers in the room. You might also want to look at the seat you are sitting in. Is the headrest above the height of your ears? The power amplifier would be further down the chain.

I agree entirely ... Amps do vary in their ability to reproduce the soundscape ... Speakers (yours are known to be very good to excellent in this department and others by the way), positionning and room acoustics determinate the 3-D and general correctness of reproduction...
Many audiophiles optimize their speakers position in the room only to seat in the wrong position. Garry is spot on ...

 

[Rshatzer]

I agree entirely ... Amps do vary in their ability to reproduce the soundscape ... Speakers (yours are known to be very good to excellent in this department and others by the way), positionning and room acoustics determinate the 3-D and general correctness of reproduction...
Many audiophiles optimize their speakers position in the room only to seat in the wrong position. Garry is spot on ...

Read Gary's post after waking and decided to get the rack as far from the speakers as possible. Ended up having it very near the rear wall and eventually pulled speakers even further into the room. Amazing improvements and not to be taken lightly! Soundstage is much more open and images have a more realistic presence. Only had time to listen to 2 favorite CDs, but i'm much more pleased with what i'm hearing and seeing. Thanks everyone! Got chores to do , but will play some favorite records later on.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Read Gary's post after waking and decided to get the rack as far from the speakers as possible. Ended up having it very near the rear wall and eventually pulled speakers even further into the room. Amazing improvements and not to be taken lightly! Soundstage is much more open and images have a more realistic presence. Only had time to listen to 2 favorite CDs, but i'm much more pleased with what i'm hearing and seeing. Thanks everyone! Got chores to do , but will play some favorite records later on.

Yes many have talked about that Remember Charlie Hansen talking about it SP a long time ago

 

[DonH50]

I have never felt the sound stage terribly dependent upon the amp, though my old tube amps' midrange emphasis tended to "seem" to present a more forward sound stage. IME, speakers and the room dominate the sound stage (and imaging, for that matter).

The fact that I have a big flat screen between my speakers now caused me a lot of head scratching. I ultimately decided to deaden the front wall behind the speakers and TV and live with the result. Since I am OK with a relatively dead room I have had no issues. Before I treated the front wall, comb filter and similar effects were driving me nuts (a short drive).

 

[Rshatzer]

After resuming listening today, I noticed that freeing up the space behind and between speakers has moved the soundstage rearward. Also noticed a big improvement in dynamics and bass. Bass sounds even more natural in spite of pulling speakers further out from wall. What started out as a quest for more solid 3D images, ended up with much more than that. Yeah, i'm experiencing more 3D on recordings I know should produce them, but the overall presentation has improved the musicality... the toe tapping a@s shaking kind. Initially, i'd never have guessed that the traditional rack placement I used was hampering things so much, but thanks to the suggestions posted here, I now know better. Considering the age of my electronics, i'm even more perplexed what upgrading amp and preamp or even the CDP would yield.

Thanks again!

 

[garylkoh]

Glad that WBF helped!! Don't forget Frantz's comment - sometimes you need to move your seat forwards and backwards. Optimizing speaker positioning in the room is just half the equation. You also need to optimize the listening positioning in the room. No need to upgrade any components until you have exhausted the potential quality of the room.

 

[Rshatzer]

Glad that WBF helped!! Don't forget Frantz's comment - sometimes you need to move your seat forwards and backwards. Optimizing speaker positioning in the room is just half the equation. You also need to optimize the listening positioning in the room. No need to upgrade any components until you have exhausted the potential quality of the room.

Thanks Gary! WBF has helped. You are right about the seating position. For reasons I know not, I seemed more sensitive or aware of that yesterday after freeing up the space in my room. Something tells me i've only just started with the room. How much involvement that will be who knows? The listening room is essentially the upstairs portion of our Cape Cod house. I have this fantasy of building another listening room on our property, adjacent to the house, but that is a long way off. In the meantime, i'm thankful for the room I have and a wife who never gives me grief over my 'hobby'.

 

[DonH50]

Note the center of the room is almost never the best seating spot, as multiple room modes "pile up" there... I usually end up centered in the short direction and maybe a third from the speakers in the long direction. The "rule of thirds" is not a bad place to start with audio as well as photography...

 

[Rshatzer]

Note the center of the room is almost never the best seating spot, as multiple room modes "pile up" there... I usually end up centered in the short direction and maybe a third from the speakers in the long direction. The "rule of thirds" is not a bad place to start with audio as well as photography...

Thanks for the advice Don! Just at a glance (haven't measured my seating position yet) i'm not close to the middle of the room. A few inches fore and aft of the love seat, make a huge difference. Before yesterday, I can't say it did. ATM, i'm considering longer interconnects to run from the preamp to the amp, so i can move the rack against the rear wall. Must contact my cable maker friend and see what he says.

 

[DonH50]

Comb filter effects cause the "move your head an inch and the sound changes by a mile" issue in most rooms. That is one of the main reasons for room treatment. Room modes (another issue) place peaks and valleys in the response that can also be somewhat narrow and deep/high, particularly nulls.

 

[Bruce B]

Comb filter effects cause the "move your head an inch and the sound changes by a mile" issue in most rooms. That is one of the main reasons for room treatment. Room modes (another issue) place peaks and valleys in the response that can also be somewhat narrow and deep/high, particularly nulls.

To try it.... if anyone can, produce a 10k sine wave (for those of you that can still hear up that far!), and start moving your head around.. .just a little bit and see how much the sound differs.

 

[Rshatzer]

Comb filter effects cause the "move your head an inch and the sound changes by a mile" issue in most rooms. That is one of the main reasons for room treatment. Room modes (another issue) place peaks and valleys in the response that can also be somewhat narrow and deep/high, particularly nulls.

Room treatments scare me. For one, I'd hate to remove artwork i've enjoyed displaying and also the fact that i'm so ignorant on room treatments. Obviously, i'll have to read up on room treatment.

 

[JackD201]

Thanks for the advice Don! Just at a glance (haven't measured my seating position yet) i'm not close to the middle of the room. A few inches fore and aft of the love seat, make a huge difference. Before yesterday, I can't say it did. ATM, i'm considering longer interconnects to run from the preamp to the amp, so i can move the rack against the rear wall. Must contact my cable maker friend and see what he says.

Do it! I'm running two 12m pairs. No problems whatsoever, zero zilch.

 

[garylkoh]

Do it! I'm running two 12m pairs. No problems whatsoever, zero zilch.

That's true of balanced interconnects. I run 7m pairs during shows, and even that is fine. However, in some cases, if single-ended, could pick up quite significant hum, or interference noise picked up could diminish dynamics and blur imaging.

 

[microstrip]

That's true of balanced interconnects. I run 7m pairs during shows, and even that is fine. However, in some cases, if single-ended, could pick up quite significant hum, or interference noise picked up could diminish dynamics and blur imaging.

It will also depend on the output impedance of the source and the input impedance of the receiving equipment, and mostly on the grounding arrangements of the equipment. If you have long interconnects you will probably power your units from separate mains outlets, perhaps connected to different mains runs. Sometimes this practice it creates a very large area ground loop, that as you say completely ruins the best sound system.

Connecting a laptop PC fitted with a sound card and some spectral analysis software to the output of your amplifier can be enlightening - in this case I really prefer the instruments to ears.

 

[Rshatzer]

That's true of balanced interconnects. I run 7m pairs during shows, and even that is fine. However, in some cases, if single-ended, could pick up quite significant hum, or interference noise picked up could diminish dynamics and blur imaging.

I'm stuck with single ended cables ATM. The amp has both balanced and single ended, but not the preamp. Something tells me this is far from over.....

 

[ironmine]

Room treatments scare me. For one, I'd hate to remove artwork i've enjoyed displaying and also the fact that i'm so ignorant on room treatments. Obviously, i'll have to read up on room treatment.

Unfortunately, this thing (room treatment), which you are scared of, is your ticket to good imaging and staging. In my opinion, room treatment is what separates true audiophiles from audiophile wannabes.

2 years ago, I upgraded from NAD CD-player ($300), NAD integrated amp ($400) to April Music DAC ($700), April Music Pre-Amp ($1000), two Monarchy Audio monoblocks ($1000 each). I can tell you - while the sound did improve, those were mostly improvements in the "quality of sound wall" only, not in the plausibility of the stage. Only after I had built lots of bass traps, SBIR panels, side panels, acoustic clouds and rearranged some furniture in the room, the imaging and staging improved significantly. (Adding the REL sub also helped a lot, by the way, it made the impact of music more physical and emotional). This experience literally redefined my approach to audiophilia. I know now that anybody who talks about cable differences and component changes, BEFORE he addressed (at least tried to) the major acoustic room drawbacks, in reality is just an ignorant man. 3D imaging which you are after, is all about spatial and temporal cues. And these are determined most by the counteraction of your speakers and your room.

You can have the best direct sound signal coming from your most expensive & wonderfully-amplified speakers, with perfect three-dimensiality and holography, but, unfortunately, you'll be able to enjoy it only for the first 10-20 milliseconds Because, 10-20 ms later, this beautiful expensive sound will be mixed with (and mucked by) the wall reflections coming at your ears from all wrong directions and at wrong times, ill-correlated with the direct signal, standing booming bass waves, etc.

So, face the challenge of room treatment as a man! The rewards for you, as an audiophile, will be amazing and enjoyable beyond your current expectations.