How does one get "trained" ears?

[amirm]

i reject the idea that formalized training as a listener is preferred. i believe that experience and repetition in focused music listening are more useful methods at becoming a good listener. which then becomes a great assistance at system building and gear choosing.

For something to be "more useful" you need to have tried both alternatives. What formal training have you gone through?

If you have not gone through any, then I remain alone in having tried both alternatives and I can tell you that it is trivial -- trivial -- to beat any audiophiles with training. We did large scale listening tests at Microsoft using our audiophile population and they would lose completely to our non-audiophile but trained listeners. It was not even close.

It is like you telling me by driving a lot of cars you become as good as a trained mechanic in diagnostic of car problems. It just doesn't happen or your salespeople would be working in your repair shop at work.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

For something to be "more useful" you need to have tried both alternatives. What formal training have you gone through?

If you have not gone through any, then I remain alone in having tried both alternatives and I can tell you that it is trivial -- trivial -- to beat any audiophiles with training. We did large scale listening tests at Microsoft using our audiophile population and they would lose completely to our non-audiophile but trained listeners. It was not even close.

It is like you telling me by driving a lot of cars you become as good as a trained mechanic in diagnostic of car problems. It just doesn't happen or your salespeople would be working in your repair shop at work.

no, it's not. this is art, not science or engineering. reproduced musical correctness is subjective. it's what you happen to like. not some objective thing. i don't ask pro audio guys what the best sounding high end audio gear is. they have mostly not paid any attention to it or view it with disdain. they don't get it, like you don't get it.

i don't know an audiophile/music lover who would fall under your 'trained' category. why? because it is not useful or relevant to do that training. if they have happened to have done it, they rose above it or factored it downward in their minds eye of judgment.

 

[treitz3]

Are you suggesting that any golden ear is not up to your ear intellect because you had "training" at Microsoft and that all other listeners are sub par to your vast knowledge?

It sure is what it sounds like and frankly, that's laughable Amir.

Tom

 

[Steve Williams]

You have to tune out the music Mike. Surely one has to understand that

Amir

Think of yourself however you want. I remain confident in my premise that you are the complete antithesis of a music lover. I said before that some of us listen to music and some of us only hear.You yourself have said here that it is a scourge that leaves you void of music appreciation because all you hear are artifacts and noise. How sad that you sit here and preach to us what and how we should hear when you by your own admission tune out the music.

Sad indeed. I said I felt sorry for you. In reality I really don't.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

learning to listen is a continual pathway where you improve with time. and your references get raised and tastes can change. and fellow listeners help along the way with feedback.

it's a fun and enjoyable thing to work on.

 

[microstrip]

We should ask first what is the ultimate objective of training as asked by the original poster.

Otherwise we will be debating apples and oranges.

IMHO the best training we can get is reading reviews of quality reviewers, not for the equipment, but for the recordings and specific aspects they highlight of their listening experience and then listening. And many times the introduction is a lot better than the review or the conclusions!

 

[Robh3606]

IMHO the best training we can get is reading reviews of quality reviewers, not for the equipment, but for the recordings and specific aspects they highlight of their listening experience and then listening.

Hello Micro

What if the music doesn't do it for you?? I think my listening skills were improved by my DIY journey building speakers FWIW.

Rob

 

[microstrip]

Hello Micro

What if the music doesn't do it for you?? I think my listening skills were improved by my DIY journey building speakers FWIW.

Rob

Fortunately my preferred reviewers like using mainly acoustical music - sometimes very good recordings I also own.

This means that I learn very little from people like the famous Ken Kessler - but sometimes he supplies good entertainment.

 

[Folsom]

While hearing different types of equipment gives you an impression, I've got to say until you change very small parts of a piece of equipment, you're very limited in gaining in-depth knowledge. Swapping amplifiers or speakers changes dozens of variables at a time.

Vast majority of engineering work has nothing whatsoever to do with advanced math.

Agreed. People might be rather surprised. When it comes to audio engineering it's rare that you need more than some algebra. There's calculus that explains a lot of what's going on, but it's essentially useless because you already know what it's going to define, and checking with a measurement tool is more valuable than trying to validate your best wishes with the math. Now these are not statements that engineering audio electronics is easy, as it requires more knowledge that's uncommon and unwritten in text books than any other field I can think of that isn't avant-garde/new. And the audio world isn't exhausted yet.

I thought the elephant in the room you were going to mention was sensibility. The ability to keep an unbiased mind, not get emotionally invested with gear, either the one owned by oneself or that one is propagating on the forums - ego and sunk costs tend to keep people going down the blackhole. I think a lot of people hear similar things if they have similar experiences, but the decisions made differ even with the same experiences - and in many cases decisions are not made based on experiences. Of course a live concert background as well as gear experience is required, but if one stays sensible, humble, does not get emotional and ignores the marketing noise (which includes price tags), he can go a long way.

That's a tough one. I've heard systems that I thought were not that good at _____ but the person showing me thought they were, purely based on the assumption that _____ was true because it's easy to believe it. Most of everything I hear people describe about a stereo has almost nothing to do with how it actually works. They're not wrong that they're hearing it, they just don't know what and how the sound is made that they're describing. There's often even a consistency in gear supporting what they're saying, but it's still anecdotal and not the fact of the matter. All in all I think ignoring price is the best possible option, just listen and decide that way what you like. But people form ideas about what equipment will sound like because of experience with someone else that to them appears similar but may not be at all. Pigeon-holing is a problem. Most of it comes from non-understandings by engineers that make products incorrectly - IMO, subpar might be the proper term - and it breeds false knowledge that becomes "truth" to people.

 

[stehno]

IMHO you have really a pessimistic view of the world - fortunately I disagree with most of your points, including the non audio ones. I agree about the need of having talented people - fortunately they are many more than you think. And contrary to what many people can think the high-end is a team work - and as such a few talented people are enough to spread the needed talent in large communities.

IMO, morricab's post was excellent.

Pessimistic? Well, that's in the eye of the beholder. Dedication, perseverance, persistence, soaking up info from multiple sources and venues, etc, are all indicators of hard work including analysis, evaluations, repeated experiments, do-overs, etc. I suspect some-to-many may perceive this as pessimistic. While, on the other hand, some-to-perhaps-few see this as an extreme form of passion or love for a given endeavor.

One life lesson high-end audio taught me (learned all on my own) was that extreme results can only occur from extreme efforts - Never by token or half-assed efforts. Perhaps that's the case with developing extremely well-trained ears or becoming a Nikola Tesla or Vincent Van Gogh type in their given industry. As morricab implied, every industry is filled with hacks, bush-leaguers, and also-rans and only a few rise above them. And high-end audio is no exception. In fact, I would attest that it's worse in high-end audio because the hobby is soooooo frickin' subjective and that includes the resulting measurements that some live and die for. What's perhaps even more pessimistic is, there's only room for one at the very top. Such is life.

But I also think it important to note:

1. Morricab makes a distinction between talent and skill and that was good because that distinction also applies to every other industry as well. Very, very few of us were born with the talent to accurately perceive and interpret what we hear. But very few of us with reasonable or better playback systems are unable to develop the skills to make up at least some of what we lack in talent.

2. As in every other industry, there are varying degrees of talent and/or skills. People routinely interchange the terms golden-ears with well-trained ears. I never use the term golden ears but I do know somebody who has the most well-trained ears I've ever encountered. Others I know with very well-trained ears don't even come close to this guy and compared to others, he is or was a relatively newcomer to the industry so maybe he had talent. Fairly incredible to observe actually.

As for me personally, I like to think I can hold my own with well-enough-trained ears. That may not be saying much but this much I can say: When Morricab says, "99% of the systems I have heard convince me that the owner of that system has no clue how to do this and it doesn't matter if he has been an audiophile 2 weeks or 30+ years." he ain't just a woofin. And I've heard many systems.

IMHO I was once in an engineer's session debating what is talent and what drives talented people. It is not something that we define in a sentence with a few words - it is the kind of definition that needs a broad perspective of many fields, not just from feedback of scientists.

I'm tempted to respond to this in just a few words, but I suspect we'd be venturing down a whole nuther rabbit hole.

 

[Leif S]

..what if those "trained"ears are 70 yrs old? What if they're reviewing $200K speakers and describing micro details thru those 70 yr old ears, ears that can't distinguish anything above 12Khz?

LMAO

So true!!!

 

[DaveC]

I was very good at math and aced all of my courses. Yet I disagree with what you say as far engineers needing to know it. Vast majority of engineering work has nothing whatsoever to do with advanced math. If it did, no work would get done as everyone forgets all of their math soon after they graduate! We have an antiquated system of education that has nothing to do with reality. As an example you can design a CPU or entire computer or audio system without knowing a line of calculus. Any math you run into, if ever, you can go online and learn it then. There is no need to waste so much time in school learning advanced math. You can also use online (or local) tools to solve calculus problems.

Now, there are specialty jobs that do require it and then some but as a general rule it is not true at all.

Jeebus you like to argue. I never said anything about the necessity to use calculus, but people who understand it generally understand what they're working on at a deeper and more intuitive level, and are in general better engineers.

In engineering school I was assigned to teams of idiots and also worked with the brightest, there's a stark difference, 10% of engineers actually have a good aptitude for it imo.

 

[DaveC]

LMAO

So true!!!

ugh, not looking forward to finding out what it's like... I hope I keep my hair and my hearing into old age!

 

[stehno]

LMAO

So true!!!

Seems to me some might already be missing the point about well-trained ears.

In 2008, I sat with Victor Comerchero, one of the original owners of ESS Speakers, who at the then age of 78 articulated in extensive detail both verbally and then in writing all that he heard and gave clear indication to me that he had very well-trained ears. In fact, it was of the very best evaluations I've witnessed firsthand.

Are you sure you really wanna LYAO?

 

[Gregadd]

Over 30 years of being a trial lawyer I have trained my self to listen for inconsistencies.
Just this morning I heard my sister order an auto part. She owns a 2003 Ford Focus and her son owns 2015 Ford Fusion. I heard her order a part for a 2015 Ford Focus. She has come
to trust my listening acuity. She called back and sure enough I heard correctly. She intentended to say 2015 Ford Fusion.
You can in fact train yourself to listen . As an audiophile you are a music apreciater not a a critic or engineer.

 

[Leif S]

Seems to me some might already be missing the point about well-trained ears.

In 2008, I sat with Victor Comerchero, one of the original owners of ESS Speakers, who at the then age of 78 articulated in extensive detail both verbally and then in writing all that he heard and gave clear indication to me that he had very well-trained ears. In fact, it was of the very best evaluations I've witnessed firsthand.

Are you sure you really wanna LYAO?

Hello stehno,

There is an inside story to my response. It references reviewers who might not have hearing above 12k. And 12k was probably a compliment. There is quite a difference between this reviewer vs someone who spent decades studying and designing speakers. So yes.... I still want to LMAO

Many of us in this industry do things to protect our hearing as I would assume Victor did

 

[Gregadd]

There are lots of smart members of WBF
I majored in mathematics but never cared about grades.
In my junior year someone made a comment. I decidrd to flex my muscles. I not only got staight A average, I scored 100 on my tests.
Just being smart is not enough.

 

[Leif S]

ugh, not looking forward to finding out what it's like... I hope I keep my hair and my hearing into old age!

You and me both

 

[Folsom]

There are lots of smart members of WBF
I majored in mathematics but never cared about grades.
In my junior year someone made a comment. I decidrd to flex my muscles. I not only got staight A average, I scored 100 on my tests.
Just being smart is not enough.

Define "smart" and the picture becomes more complex. It's situational, typically, and it's not always clear what kind of intelligence will be dominate. Otherwise scientists would rule the world and every inventor would be richer than a non-in entor, etc....

 

[asiufy]

With wine you can attend classes, learn all about grapes and soil and effect of climate. And how it shows up in the finished product. Perhaps folks with brick & morter stores would do well to have comparative listening nights, showcasing solid state vs SET amps, for example, or copper vs silver cables. But who is going to showcase the extremes, a store owner isn't going to do something that would reflect poorly on a line he/she is carrying.

Bob,

That's an excellent idea! We never did such an event, but we do compare the different-sounding gear we have in the store, first for our own edification, and then for potential customers, when requested... Those comparisons are very educational, even between two solid state amps, as the differences could be significant!