Hi-Fi is NOT a subjective hobby.

[Gregm]

Besides SINAD (sure is nice and dandy), I measure FTQ (foot tapping quotient).

Time to check out, I’m off to listen to some sine waves.

Combined SINAD and FTQ testing!

 

[Geoffkait]

May be the comment generally covered a lot of the silliness in this thread, and that all comments aren’t about one person?

I tend to doubt it but perhaps the persistent person will clarify.

 

[PeterA]

So if a small bluetooth speaker is playing symphonic music vs your system playing the same music, you don't think everyone who has heard symphonic music live, would agree your system is better?

No, I do not think everyone. It depends on what additional information there is. Just look at some post reactions. There are always outliers who disagree for the sake of disagreeing. But if it were true blind testing, and people were honest, then perhaps there would be strong consensus.

 

[ssfas]

No, I do not think everyone. It depends on what additional information there is. Just look at some post reactions. There are always outliers who disagree for the sake of disagreeing. But if it were true blind testing, and people were honest, then perhaps there would be strong consensus.

Blind testing of speakers wouldn't work around here. I had to do a fairly lengthly internet trawl with my wife on what she found acceptable, which was fruitless and did not include speakers I had on home loan. I think she said "you're not planning on buying those, are you?" In the end she suggested speakers she saw in the hifi store window, partly based on the colour. The store is in an area we often go shopping or for lunch - we're there tomorrow. We booked an appointment, went through a few options and bought them.

 

[Geoffkait]

No, I do not think everyone. It depends on what additional information there is. Just look at some post reactions. There are always outliers who disagree for the sake of disagreeing. But if it were true blind testing, and people were honest, then perhaps there would be strong consensus.

A couple questions:

how would you define true blind testing?

why do you feel some people are dishonest?

 

[Robert Young]

A couple questions:

how would you define true blind testing?

why do you feel some people are dishonest?

Hi Geoff,

Not replying for PeterA, but for speaking only for myself: i think most people are dishonest, and many of those are not aware of their own dishonesty. There are lots of reasons why people lie to themselves about things, including because the super-expensive well-reviewed ultra-thingie they bought for the equivalent of a year in grad school sounds dreadful in their system. And admitting really big mistakes is hard.

 

[thedudeabides]

And admitting really big mistakes is hahard.

Very true but if people can, it is clear validation of an honest, strong, self confident and humble inner character. Unfortunately, very rare these days.

 

[ssfas]

Hi Geoff,

Not replying for PeterA, but for speaking only for myself: i think most people are dishonest, and many of those are not aware of their own dishonesty. There are lots of reasons why people lie to themselves about things, including because the super-expensive well-reviewed ultra-thingie they bought for the equivalent of a year in grad school sounds dreadful in their system. And admitting really big mistakes is hard.

I know people who if they wasted $5k on a DAC would struggle to admit it because $5k would make a difference to their lives. I know someone who happily admits he wasted $20m invested in a friend's business because to him $20m is just a number on a piece of paper and makes no difference to his life at all.

A lot of these arguments revolve about some folk applying their relationship with money to other people, entirely inappropriately. The lower reaches of hifi seem to be very much about value for money, the super-high end I suspect is aimed at people for whom the money is of no consequence at all. I do not generalise, but know of some examples running into $1m+ of hifi.

 

[PeterA]

Blind testing of speakers wouldn't work around here. I had to do a fairly lengthly internet trawl with my wife on what she found acceptable, which was fruitless and did not include speakers I had on home loan. I think she said "you're not planning on buying those, are you?" In the end she suggested speakers she saw in the hifi store window, partly based on the colour. The store is in an area we often go shopping or for lunch - we're there tomorrow. We booked an appointment, went through a few options and bought them.

I was responding to the specific scenario of my system versus some boombox playing large scale classical music. My point is that if people didn’t know what the two systems were and they answered honestly you would get consensus.

I agree with you in general, this forum is probably not the place to conduct blind testing to compare speakers that would interest the membership.

 

[PeterA]

A couple questions:

how would you define true blind testing?

why do you feel some people are dishonest?

I don’t know how to define “ True blind testing“. I don’t do it and I’m not that interested in the protocols.

I don’t know why people are dishonest, I just think they are based on the responses I get to my posts.

 

[ssfas]

Very true but if people can, it is clear validation of an honest, strong, self confident and humble inner character. Unfortunately, very rare these days.

I bought some very expensive (for me) speaker cables, partly down to some sales talk, but also part of a part exchange deal that softened the blow.

It’s been bugging me on and off for the last couple of years so much whether I wasted my money that I’ve just ordered some 10 AWG Belden 500UP speaker cables - cost for a 5m pair, £141, about $200. I’ll also admit I made the stupid mistake that with Belden when you buy speaker cables you only get one cable, so only one cable arrived and I’ve had to pay double postage.

If the Belden cables sound just as good, I’ll use them and put the other ones in a cupboard, somewhere deep, because I’d rather not be reminded of them every time I sit down in front of my hi-fi system.

if that proves to be the case, it doesn’t make me humble, it does make me look a bit stupid. I don’t have a problem with that at all, my general philosophy is to make mistakes and learn from them.

 

[PeterA]

I was very happy with my former system upgrading it over the years. It was fairly expensive. Fancy cables everything. I then heard something completely different which I much preferred. It took me two weeks to sell my entire system and start over. I wrote a whole thread about each system. I don’t regret owning the old system and I don’t think it was stupid. I learned a lot and enjoyed it but through the process, my tastes changed and with increased exposure I knew I was going in the wrong direction. I have no regrets. I learned a lot, enjoyed it, and made progress.

 

[Al M.]

Very true but if people can, it is clear validation of an honest, strong, self confident and humble inner character. Unfortunately, very rare these days.

True. Funny thing is, a lot of people think that not admitting mistakes or errors and limitations of their opinions makes them look strong. It does the very opposite, it makes them look weak -- because it is weak.

If you have self-confidence, then what does it hurt you to admit a mistake, or to admit -- including to yourself -- that your subjective opinion may not be the absolute truth that is to be shared by everyone?

 

[PYP]

Blind testing of speakers wouldn't work around here. I had to do a fairly lengthly internet trawl with my wife on what she found acceptable, which was fruitless and did not include speakers I had on home loan. I think she said "you're not planning on buying those, are you?" In the end she suggested speakers she saw in the hifi store window, partly based on the colour. The store is in an area we often go shopping or for lunch - we're there tomorrow. We booked an appointment, went through a few options and bought them.

and how do they sound?

I had a similar experience with my wife many years ago. We were on vacation and I looked at a hifi shop next to where we had lunch. My wife liked a B&W speaker in beautiful cherry wood. Luckily, the hifi shop was owned by a guy who knew how to set up equipment. He handed us the remote and said to have fun. They sounded great to both of us and we had those for a very long time. Point being: Kismet can be as important as extensively researching audio equipment. Happenstance, I think, often accounts for much more that we are generally willing to admit.

 

[tima]

I bought some very expensive (for me) speaker cables, partly down to some sales talk, but also part of a part exchange deal that softened the blow.

It’s been bugging me on and off for the last couple of years so much whether I wasted my money that I’ve just ordered some 10 AWG Belden 500UP speaker cables - cost for a 5m pair, £141, about $200. I’ll also admit I made the stupid mistake that with Belden when you buy speaker cables you only get one cable, so only one cable arrived and I’ve had to pay double postage.

If the Belden cables sound just as good, I’ll use them and put the other ones in a cupboard, somewhere deep, because I’d rather not be reminded of them every time I sit down in front of my hi-fi system.

if that proves to be the case, it doesn’t make me humble, it does make me look a bit stupid. I don’t have a problem with that at all, my general philosophy is to make mistakes and learn from them.

I use Belden Star Quad RCA ICs, 7ft and 24ft; about $70 for both pairs.

 

[ssfas]

I use Belden Star Quad RCA ICs, 7ft and 24ft; about $70 for both pairs.

I recently bought some Belden RCA, which shall be deployed next week in my new phono stage. I have quite a lot of Belden cabling, all my ethernet cables and the power wiring from my consumer unit to my networking cupboard and AV department. I went for Neotech for the hi-fi.

 

[Geoffkait]

Many here think the hobby is purely subjective but there are some objective attributes that one can assign to a music reproduction system. For example, one system can objectively image better than another. Agree/disagree?

I fear that soundstage is subjective. All sensory perception is subjective. Besides, how would someone measure soundstage depth, height, width, transparency, image density and other characteristics of music such as “snarl” and intelligibility? How would one measure “inner detail” and “inner dynamics?“ How would one measure air and presence?

I submit what generally passes as soundstage and imaging is simply a “projection” by the system’s speakers, I.e., more of a two-dimensional thing. How would one measure soundstage when the sound doesn’t even extend beyond the speakers at all?

 

[Geoffkait]

I know people who if they wasted $5k on a DAC would struggle to admit it because $5k would make a difference to their lives. I know someone who happily admits he wasted $20m invested in a friend's business because to him $20m is just a number on a piece of paper and makes no difference to his life at all.

A lot of these arguments revolve about some folk applying their relationship with money to other people, entirely inappropriately. The lower reaches of hifi seem to be very much about value for money, the super-high end I suspect is aimed at people for whom the money is of no consequence at all. I do not generalise, but know of some examples running into $1m+ of hifi.

The lower reaches of HiFi? Whoa! What? I trust you’re not implying that everyone who spends “a lot of money” on some HiFi speakers or cables or DAC or quantum thingamabob is wasting his money or has been duped, but it looks like that’s what you’re saying.

The lower reaches of HiFi? Geez, I thought everyone was interested in bang for the buck these days. I thought very rich people got that way because they are very frugal.

 

[sparkie]

How would one measure soundstage when the sound doesn’t even extend beyond the speakers at all?

I use a vector scope and look at the stereo image in a Lissajous pattern.

 

[sparkie]

I trust you’re not implying that everyone who spends “a lot of money” on some HiFi speakers or cables or DAC or quantum thingamabob is wasting their money, but it looks like that’s is what you’re saying.

Great Hifi sound doesn't have to cost a lot of money either. Even though stereo world should have abandoned RCA/unbalanced connections a long time ago which is a source of a lot of issues.