Help with floor bounce diffuser

[sbnx]

Hello everyone. I am hoping to leverage the collective knowledge of the group. I have seen the floor diffuser shown in the attached picture in several system setup picture but I don't knw who makes it or how to obtain it. I guess I could build it but would rather not.

Does anyone know where to get this?

Thanks,
Todd

 

[marmota]

It's from Acoustic Grove System, "AGS".
Product name is "AGS-FL1"

https://www.noe.co.jp/en/business/own-products/ags/lineup/ags-fl1.html

Where to buy it...good question, Japan aside, Subbase distributes AGS in Europe. I don't know if AGS has US distributors.

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated to AGS, I'm just interested in the products too, which I think are very interesting.

 

[sbnx]

Well, as expected, that didn't take long. Thanks Marmota for the info. I looked at the links and I don't see a US dealer. I think I will just make a pair of these. Nothing too challenging. It will just take the better part of a Saturday.

Thanks again.

 

[marmota]

Well, as expected, that didn't take long. Thanks Marmota for the info. I looked at the links and I don't see a US dealer. I think I will just make a pair of these. Nothing too challenging. It will just take the better part of a Saturday.

Thanks again.

You're welcome!
I wish I had the woodworking skills to build something, let alone that kind of diffuser! Please, share some photos once you build it!
Happy holidays!

 

[BlueFox]

The question is does that even make a difference? In the photo they are on carpet, and you would need a huge room for them to fit on the floor. Don’t listen to your stereo in a darkened room or you will eventually break your neck after tripping on them.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Looks like a sweater dryer rack.

 

[jackelsson]

During the last High End show in Munich there was a whole set of this stuff in the room where the presentation of the TechDas Air Force Zero took place - that's probably what the picture above is showing.

I happend to be very lucky and get the middle front seat (aka 'pole position') during one of the quite fascinating presentations where Mr. Nishikawa introduced his opus magnum.

Right after the presentation of the AF0 there was a second presentation where the designer of the AGS diffusors removed them gradually from the room until they were all gone, and then the whole thing was reversed and they were put back into place. I was absolutely gobsmacked what these rather unobtrusive wooden constructions did. There was a clearly audible improvement of soundstage and detail.

Acutally I'm rather glad about this thread because I had half forgotten about them but now I will definitely start looking into the topic again.

The question now is obviously whether a normal QRD diffusor placed in front of the speakers wouldn't do the same job for a fraction of the price.

Knowing the boutique price points that Subbase Audio is usually targeting with their product lineup the price of 950 EUR for the single small AGS diffusor (AGS–MN1) that can be seen in the middle of the picture above isn't really surprising. Consequently the whole deck of AGS diffusors in the TechDas room at the High End show must have been worth something around eight or ten grand on the Subbase Audio price list. That is quite a bit of money for a collection of sawed off broomsticks in a frame and certainly leads to the question of cheaper alternatives. Like e.g. DIY.

But the effect of a diffusor on the floor in front of the speaker was quite astounding and is certainly a topic worth looking into.

 

[rando]

That is quite a bit of money for a collection of sawed off broomsticks in a frame and certainly leads to the question of cheaper alternatives. Like e.g. DIY.

@BlueFox

 

[sbnx]

Hello again. Of course due to the whole Covid lock down I had plenty of free time over the Christmas weekend. So I spent some of it making a couple of these gadgets (or rather something pretty close). I took some measurements which does show that they work. But before I get to the data a small digression.

At one point I was trying to understand a dip in the frequency response of my system. I did some calculations and it seemed to line up with floor bounce. So I made some absorbers out of a canvas bag stuffed with denim insulation. I put them at the first reflection point on the floor and behold the dip mostly went away. However, the little dip in frequency response wasn't the really big improvement. That came in an overall improvement in clarity and dynamics. I did a little A/B testing with my wife where I played 15 sec of a song 3 times without the absorbers on the floor and then put them in and played it again. This is only one of two times where she said "Wow, what did you just do?". (The other time was when I first used and Equitech 2Q back in 2003). I have repeated this experiment with several non-audiophile people and they all clearly hear the difference and all prefer the sound with the absorbers. Now, I have a thick (3/4"), open loop, 100% wool rug that lies between me and the speakers so one might typically think that this is more than sufficient. But it is not. If you have not experimented with eliminating the floor reflection then I would encourage it.

I have posted a couple pics of the diffusers I made and some data. The data is the ETC or Energy-Time curve. The graph shows loudness on the Y-axis and time on the X-axis. The initial large spike is the sound the speakers made when the sound energy hit the mic. All of the other spikes represent reflections coming from various surfaces in the room. The "No Rug" graph shows two very large spikes occurring between 10 and 11 ms. This is only 2 ms after the direct sound. Moving on to the graph with the Rug you can see those reflections have been knocked down 10 dB. With the diffuser (and no rug) you see the reflections were reduced by 3-5 dB. So this is an improvement. But with the absorber the whole baseline in this area gets dropped another 5dB.

As I mentioned, this is all clearly audible. You don't even have to try to hear it. Listening without the rug is horrendous. WIth the rug is pretty good and I honestly didn't even know what I was missing until I added the absorbers. Some people contend that only the side reflections matter. It is true that only the side reflections affect stereo imaging. However, any reflection occurring less than 5ms blurs the sound.

Some of the posts above seem to be concerned with the trip hazard. What can I say? Being an audiophile is dangerous business. If it concerns you then put them in place while you listen and put them aside when not listening.

PS. The large spike in the graph at about 9.3ms is from the ipad lying on my sofa.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Which result do you like best and will you retain?

 

[marmota]

@sbnx Wow! You weren't kidding when you said "I will just make a pair of these"...looks super professional, incredible skills! Thanks for the impressions and measurements, I had my conjectures about how the floor diffusers might work, and your findings show even better results than what I thought.

@Ron Resnick I was going to ask the same, but re-reading, seems that he changed the terminology and called them absorbers instead of diffusers. Rug + floor diffusers seem to be his preferred combination.

 

[sbnx]

Marmota & Ron, Thanks for the kind comments. Let me clarify. There were 4 cases:

1. No Rug (just a bare wood floor) -- this is horrible and not listenable in my book
2. With a very thick wool rug. Good sound. listenable. Nothing objectionable.
3. Adding a thick absorber (Canvas bag with insulation) at point of floor reflection. Way better sound. This became my baseline.
4. Putting the floor diffuser instead of the absorber bag. -- I measured this and it does show improvement over a bare floor or thin carpet (like what most hotels have). I have not really listened to it yet but I suspect it is not going to be as good as the absorber. I will post again at some point with an update.

I put in the canvas bags over a year ago. They work great but don't look very nice. I liked the way the diffuser looks and I was hopeful that I could use it instead of the canvas bags. I do think a little experimentation could improve things as moving the diffuser slightly can effect the reflections dramatically. I have a few other spots I might try the diffusers. I think I might have to build a couple of "acoustic ottomans". Basically something that looks nice and does the same as the canvas bags.

Oh, BTW, the total cost to build both diffusers was well under $100. They are labor intensive at about 8 hours work. However, a good chunk of that is making the template for the sides. Once this is done churning out more is shorter. Also, if I went with just the bare wood look instead of dying them black that would have saved a good amount of time as well.

One other comment. All of the measurements were taken in rapid succession. The mic was never moved nor any electronic settings changed. Only moving the rug, absorber, diffuser.

 

[Cellcbern]

The floor and ceiling have first reflection points just like the side walls and treating them similarly will improve the sound. I put combination panels (RPG BAD) in the ceiling when my dedicated listening room was built and it made a significant difference. Haven't done anything yet with the floor but I plan to.

 

[CKKeung]

The AGS (Acoustic Grove Systems) from Nihon Onkyo Engineering in Japan is on sale.
Please read with google translate.

간접 숲 체험과 행복한 고민 NOE AGS-FS1, FL1, MN1 Acoustic Tuning Units | HIFICLUB - High-end Audio Magazine

정재파와 플러터 에코 자기만의 리스닝 룸을 갖는다는 것, 오디오 애호가들의 로망이다. 자유로운 기기 세팅과 최적 볼륨 확보를 통해 오디오 기기가 내줄 수 있는 최선의 음을 듣고 싶은 까닭이다. 하지만 리스닝 룸의 숙명 같은 것이 있으니 바로 정재파(Standing Wave)와 플러터 에코(Flutter Echo)다. 말은 어렵지만 이는 누구나 알고 있는 ‘방이 내는 불편한 소리’다. 속이 메스꺼워지는 부밍, 귀가 아픈 고역의 비명, 특정 악기 대역의 실종, 이런 것.

hificlub.co.kr

AGS 룸튜닝재 사전예약 할인판매 | HIFICLUB - High-end Audio Magazine

AGS는 나무로 마감된 여러개의 원통형 파이프로 이루어져 공명과 음향의 분산을 통해 자연스러운 음의 확산을 만들어주는 룸튜닝재입니다. 무엇보다 설치 위치를 자유롭게 할 수 있어 리스닝 룸의 특성에 맞게 세밀한 음향 튜닝을 할 수 있다는 것이 큰 장점입니다. AGS가 가져다주는 음향 효과는 크게3가지가 있습니다.사운드 스테이지 확장 및 공간의 입체감 음의 생동감, 배음, 디테일 증가 저역 부밍 해소이 효과로"명확한 음상 정위”와“기분 좋은 울림과 소리 확산”으로, 방이 넓어진 느낌의 자연스럽고 편안한 사운드 공간이 실현...

hificlub.co.kr

 

[CKKeung]

The AGS catalog :
https://www.noe.co.jp/en/download/pdf/AGS-English.pdf

 

[marmota]

The AGS (Acoustic Grove Systems) from Nihon Onkyo Engineering in Japan is on sale.
Please read with google translate.

간접 숲 체험과 행복한 고민 NOE AGS-FS1, FL1, MN1 Acoustic Tuning Units | HIFICLUB - High-end Audio Magazine

정재파와 플러터 에코 자기만의 리스닝 룸을 갖는다는 것, 오디오 애호가들의 로망이다. 자유로운 기기 세팅과 최적 볼륨 확보를 통해 오디오 기기가 내줄 수 있는 최선의 음을 듣고 싶은 까닭이다. 하지만 리스닝 룸의 숙명 같은 것이 있으니 바로 정재파(Standing Wave)와 플러터 에코(Flutter Echo)다. 말은 어렵지만 이는 누구나 알고 있는 ‘방이 내는 불편한 소리’다. 속이 메스꺼워지는 부밍, 귀가 아픈 고역의 비명, 특정 악기 대역의 실종, 이런 것.

hificlub.co.kr

AGS 룸튜닝재 사전예약 할인판매 | HIFICLUB - High-end Audio Magazine

AGS는 나무로 마감된 여러개의 원통형 파이프로 이루어져 공명과 음향의 분산을 통해 자연스러운 음의 확산을 만들어주는 룸튜닝재입니다. 무엇보다 설치 위치를 자유롭게 할 수 있어 리스닝 룸의 특성에 맞게 세밀한 음향 튜닝을 할 수 있다는 것이 큰 장점입니다. AGS가 가져다주는 음향 효과는 크게3가지가 있습니다.사운드 스테이지 확장 및 공간의 입체감 음의 생동감, 배음, 디테일 증가 저역 부밍 해소이 효과로"명확한 음상 정위”와“기분 좋은 울림과 소리 확산”으로, 방이 넓어진 느낌의 자연스럽고 편안한 사운드 공간이 실현...

hificlub.co.kr

Google translate did an excellent job with both articles, It was a very easy and interesting read, and it cleared many doubts for me. I found the following paragraphs very useful:

"Nihon Onkyo Engineering (NOE), Japanese sound engineering in Korean, was established in 1972."

"These products appear to be lined with simple wooden cylinders, but there are differences in the material and thickness of each tree, assembling method, and even paint or painting method. Of course, this is the result of numerous computer simulations, and if any one of them is changed, the AGS effect is said to be significantly reduced."

"AGS technology won the 19th Technical Development Prize from The Acoustical Soiciety of Japan in 2011."

"NOE explains that AGS units can 1) suppress standing waves of low frequency, 2) alleviate the adverse effects of reflected sound, and 3) achieve sound-absorbing effects depending on the installation location."

From what I've seen, FL1 has to be used like in the pictures, just sitting in the floor and not on top of rugs. A rug can be used in the room but not below FL1.

Is good to know that the company is not just an "overnight success", but has almost 5 decades of experience and the products have some serious R&D behind them.

Thanks for sharing the articles!

 

[CKKeung]

Some case studies :

https://www.noe.co.jp/en/download/pdf/AGS_Newsletter(202003).pdf

 

[BlueFox]

“From what I've seen, FL1 has to be used like in the pictures, just sitting in the floor and not on top of rugs. A rug can be used in the room but not below FL1.”

Or just put a rug on the floor and eliminate any floor reflections.

 

[marmota]

Or just put a rug on the floor and eliminate any floor reflections.

Thanks, Captain Obvious!
Sarcasm apart, we all know that and are discussing an alternative/complement to it. I don't see how your reply adds anything meaningful to the discussion.

 

[BlueFox]

LOL.