Has anyone heard the Devialet D-Premier Integrated Amp/DAC

[fas42]

only a handful of times are systems whose capacity holds me emotionally hostage, stops my analytical nature (It's how I make my living) and empties my head to the music and the passion and the emotion of the original performers. You instantly know it - your body can't lie. Tears, shortness of breath, goosebumps, etc.

J, you're a man after my own heart! Having a system always working in this mode is my goal, and unfortunately very few people "get" it (in both senses of meaning ...).

My response here is quite off topic, and it would be good if you could contribute more of your thoughts, regarding the quote above, in the "Truth and tonality: can they co-exist" thread ...

Cheers,
Frank

 

[MarinJim]

Thank-you very much for your thoughts JBevier. Very well written, and I can sense your passion for recorded music and how it is delivered. Do you think all distortion is equal? Is one more harmful than another?

 

[garylkoh]

What I've heard / experienced (The distinction here is the first involves the ears, while and second uses the ears as a pathway to the heart) only a handful of times are systems whose capacity holds me emotionally hostage, stops my analytical nature (It's how I make my living) and empties my head to the music and the passion and the emotion of the original performers. You instantly know it - your body can't lie. Tears, shortness of breath, goosebumps, etc.

Hi JBevier, welcome to the forum. Thank you for a very well reasoned post. I'd like to invite you to participate here:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2636-Truth-and-Tonality-can-they-co-exist

Cheers
Gary

 

[microstrip]

(...)

Famed French designer, Yves-Bernard Andre explained to me years ago he had identified several major categories of distortions that he systematically tried to remove from his electronics - 1) magnetic based distortions, 2) thermal caused distortions, 3) vibratory caused distortions, and 4) electrically based distortions.
(...)
Fast forward 20-years and consider what the engineers at Devialet have accomplished. Our industry seems to have come to consensus and identified the following distortions electronics can introduce into the signal path that will result in a veering away from the accuracy of the original musical event we try so hard to reproduce. These are: A) Signal to Noise Ratios, B) Total Harmonic Distortion, C) Intermodulation Distortions, D) Electrical Impedance, E) Bandwidth and Phase Distortions, E) Thermal Distortion.

Systematically remove or reduce these influences, and we should be left with only the musical event itself.

My conversation has gone on far too long - to give you my answer to your question - does the removal of distortion always change the sound for the better? In my opinion, I think it does.

My best - J

JBevier,

Very interesting post. You raise too many interesting points .

My main doubt is that the first three types of distortion you refer are orders of magnitude lower than the electrically ones - when you group all of them in THD and IMD you are loosing your precious information and the value of these new parameters is very inferior to the old ones. How should we (consumers) recover it?

Considering the removal of distortion - since all recordings have intrinsic distortion you will always have a "distorted" source. If you remove almost all the distortion without selection rules we can risk over-exposing the technical limitations of the process, destroying the illusion created by the recording and mastering engineers. And I think emotion is not possible without illusion ...

 

[FrantzM]

JBevier,

<snip>
Considering the removal of distortion - since all recordings have intrinsic distortion you will always have a "distorted" source. If you remove almost all the distortion without selection rules we can risk over-exposing the technical limitations of the process, destroying the illusion created by the recording and mastering engineers. And I think emotion is not possible without illusion ...

Let's put the truism aside. Nothing is perfect. Recordings are not perfect.

Now does that mean that we should leave some amount of distortion to mask the imperfection of recordings ? I don't think that is valid approach, unless what we are trying to do is to come up with our own version of the recording ...
Recording are not perfect to repeat myself ad infinitum but they are not consistently bad and often the faults are not so much about what is added versus what are missing ... so the least interference the electronics have on the recording the closer we would be to the intention of the recording ..

Now if all one wants is to add one's version ...

 

[fas42]

Now does that mean that we should leave some amount of distortion to mask the imperfection of recordings ? I don't think that is valid approach, unless what we are trying to do is to come up with our own version of the recording ...
Recording are not perfect to repeat myself ad infinitum but they are not consistently bad and often the faults are not so much about what is added versus what are missing ... so the least interference the electronics have on the recording the closer we would be to the intention of the recording ..

Agree 100%.

By the way, this is now very off topic ...

Frank

 

[microstrip]

Let's put the truism aside. Nothing is perfect. Recordings are not perfect.

Now does that mean that we should leave some amount of distortion to mask the imperfection of recordings ? I don't think that is valid approach, unless what we are trying to do is to come up with our own version of the recording ...
Recording are not perfect to repeat myself ad infinitum but they are not consistently bad and often the faults are not so much about what is added versus what are missing ... so the least interference the electronics have on the recording the closer we would be to the intention of the recording ..

Now if all one wants is to add one's version ...

Sorry , it seems I was not clear.

Not our version of the recording - the version that the recording engineers wanted us to get. It is well known that within the limitations of a stereo system we can not get an effective image of the real thing. Recording/mixing engineers, based on their experience, manipulate the data they collect to built a recording that will create the illusion of reality. But our playback system is also part of the variable - without it the illusion does not work.

Considering the distortion - take a decent sounding amplifier. Strip away all the even harmonics - it will lower distortion. Are you sure you get a better amplifier?

 

[MarinJim]

So, is the Devialet without distortion?

 

[fas42]

Considering the distortion - take a decent sounding amplifier. Strip away all the even harmonics - it will lower distortion. Are you sure you get a better amplifier?

This is precisely what the Truth and Tonality thread is attempting to explore ...

Frank

 

[FrantzM]

Sorry , it seems I was not clear.

Not our version of the recording - the version that the recording engineers wanted us to get. It is well known that within the limitations of a stereo system we can not get an effective image of the real thing. Recording/mixing engineers, based on their experience, manipulate the data they collect to built a recording that will create the illusion of reality. But our playback system is also part of the variable - without it the illusion does not work.

Considering the distortion - take a decent sounding amplifier. Strip away all the even harmonics - it will lower distortion. Are you sure you get a better amplifier?

The limitations of our stereo systems will NOT dimish with an increase of distortion however pleasant these might be to the owner of the system.. So to answer your last questions
Everything else remaining the same ? Yes ! The idea is NOT to add anything ... You don't get a better amplifier by adding ANYTHING to the signal

We know we cannot get the recording perfectly but to get to hear the intention of the artists, our systems must add the least amount of "things' .. When you add any "thing" however pleasant, you are deviating from the message ...

I 'll leave it at that .. I am immensely interested in this amp .. I had posted in another thread about Preamp that I believe that for Line level a Pre-amp was superfluous. ... The Devialet is just that ..One small box with everything (Preamp-Amp-DAAC) and from all accounts a formidable product ..Looking forward to audition it seriously ... Last question (for now) ...I am now a devoted fan of Headphones, got two but the last one shall be replaced by an Hi FI Man HE6, the Denon can remains and proved superior to the departing one.. Does the D-Premier support Headphones and how ? If indeed it supports headphones Can it drive a low efficiency headphone like the aforementioned HE-6?

Thanks in advance

 

[microstrip]

Everything else remaining the same ? Yes ! The idea is NOT to add anything ... You don't get a better amplifier by adding ANYTHING to the signal

Many people seem to forget audio is about perception. Consider listening space. The only "true" environment is an anechoic chamber. But no one likes it - you must add controlled reflexions - a nice name for acoustic distortions that bring you close to the "truth" of the people who made the recording.

If someone manages to do it electronically, why is he a criminal against the "truth" ?

BTW, the idea is not adding anything, but unless designers are magicians, they add. The trick is adding something that does minimal damage to the musical message.

 

[Orb]

.... Does the D-Premier support Headphones and how ? If indeed it supports headphones Can it drive a low efficiency headphone like the aforementioned HE-6?

Thanks in advance

Hi Frantz,
this is something I am interested with my own Devialet D-Premier and so looked into this already.
The RCA is pretty universal in that it can be configured as input or output as variable or fixed (along with other setting for matching impedance it seems from an earlier post).

So ideally a config file is created with one of the RCA connections configured as an analogue output to a quality headphone amp (if required you can also output digital).
For me this is perfect as the choice of headphone amp can affect performance/sound so selection can be important.
I was looking to purchase the Graham Slee Solo Ultra for this setup, but this is currently on hold due to other commitments first.

Anyway the key is using the configuration software that enables serious amount of flexibility on how the connections are used.
When I asked Devialet they had a config file ready for me within a day, great support.

Cheers
Orb

 

[FrantzM]

Many people seem to forget audio is about perception. Consider listening space. The only "true" environment is an anechoic chamber. But no one likes it - you must add controlled reflexions - a nice name for acoustic distortions that bring you close to the "truth" of the people who made the recording.

If someone manages to do it electronically, why is he a criminal against the "truth" ?

BTW, the idea is not adding anything, but unless designers are magicians, they add. The trick is adding something that does minimal damage to the musical message.

Microstrip
OT

That is not the point ... It is possible to design or have a room that has minimal impact on the reproduction.... One does not "add" reflections, they occur and must be dealt with. If we want to go toward absolutes then nothing holds... Life is a matter of compromise one can reduce these compromises but will never eliminate them entirely call it asymptote: you can get infinitesimally close but you will never reach it ... Thus our discussions about Audio and the simple reason why components, particularly speakers sound so vastly different.. The better electronics sound more alike than different ...

You remove the distortions, everything else remaining the same you get a better amp ... You reduce the distortions along the chain of reproduction you end up with a better reproduction ... Now you may not like the "message" then and only then should you may change to your liking ...

 

[microstrip]

(...) It is possible to design or have a room that has minimal impact on the reproduction (...)

FrantzM,

Unless you are calling "minimal impact" to controlled or predictable impact, we disagree on this one. Effectively, most people will tell you that any room will have maximum impact in reproduction, in the sense that their optimized rooms will differ a lot.

But we should move our debate elsewhere ...

Just to pretend I am on topic , I have sheltered the Devialet for one week.

 

[Orb]

Looks like Toneaudio will have an interesting review of the Devialet Feb 20th issue:
http://www.tonepublications.com/spotlight/

Cheers
Orb

 

[Seta]

Looks like Toneaudio will have an interesting review of the Devialet Feb 20th issue:
http://www.tonepublications.com/spotlight/

Download ToneAudio #35 with D-Premier on the cover.

 

[bernardl]

Devialet review in German Stereo magazine

It seems that leading publication Stereo from Germany has just given the Devialet a perfect 100% rating. Only a handful of integrated amps got the same honors in the past, including the Krell FBI.

Cheers,
Bernard

 

[amirm]

That's very nice Bernard. I just heard we are getting our sample to evaluate. Look forward to putting it through its paces!

 

[amirm]

OK, finally had some time to evaluate the Devialet. The company was kind enough to loan us this unit which we appreciated very much.

We made the comparison against three other amps we had on hand: Mark Levinson No 53 mono blocks and 532 reference, plus a Crown Xti 4000 (?). The 53 and Crown are Class I (interleaved class D) with the 532 being all linear. Price wise, the 532 is the closest with the crown being much cheaper and 53 much more expensive.

Feed was a high-quality USB to S/PDIF converter (Audiophilleo) from a music server and analog out from our Berkeley alpha DAC. Most of the tests were done with the former, feeding the Devialet with digital signal. Speakers were Revel Salon 2s and Paradigm Signature S8s.

Here is what we walked away with:

+ Gorgeous design. Even better once you power it on. Very nice display on top. The remote has a super nice feel.

+ Commanding control of the bass. The salon 2s need lots of power to get them to produce tight bass and this box did it. If this is what you are looking for, this amp can deliver. The high efficiency of these digital amps really comes into play in this area. There is no substitute for extracting the max juice out of the wall outlet and delivering it to the speaker.

To wit, both No 53 and Crown provided the same tight and powerful bass. The 532 while also quite good, had slightly softer impact in its bass response.

+ The integration is quite nice, having DAC, pre-amp and power all in one box. It took more pieces to simulate the same with the other solutions.

- Unfortunately, once we move above the bass, as with most class D amps, performance starts to drop. The highs were especially grungy with Devialet. Ambiance was lost and sound become flatter.

- Wanting to separate the DAC performance, we ran the unit using analog connection from our Berkeley DAC. It made very little difference in the performance of it.

To provide overall context, the 53 was hugely in front of it in performance. It was not a fair race at all between the two. The 53 performance stays at top regardless of what you throw at it, while also having the benefit of incredible bass performance.

The 532 was also beautifully nice sounding all around, only beat on tightness of bass by Davialet.

I should mention that with the right material this device can sound incredible. Indeed, that was my first experience with it: a heavy drum piece by the Marsalis family. It was everything you wanted it to be. Also, this device has a customizable feature using an SD card. We tested it with the default program delivered to us. Perhaps with a different config file it would perform better.

Again, this was all sighted testing and it is entirely possible we were biased by the much larger boxes connected to speaker wires .

One idea here might be to use this system in bi-amp configuration, with another amp driving the mid to high frequencies. Since not as much power is required there, a tube amp or small solid state amp will do the job. In that sense, having a high-pass output from the amp would come in handy.

 

[fas42]

Interesting. Your experiences are somewhat different from a number of people ...

Did you have the Berkeley DAC on at the same time and fairly close to the Devialet? This used to be a bit of a nasty, one digital device too close (electrically) to another degrading the performance, might be worth investigating.

Frank