Has anyone heard the Devialet D-Premier Integrated Amp/DAC

[fas42]

Tim, I would claim you, and others, can hear jitter effects and all the other distortion elements I have been talking about. Where and when? Every time you put on a "bad" recording. Your brain says "Yuck, that recording gear was total crap", or "Didn't those engineers have a clue?!". So what's happening? Your ear/brain has to cope with the problems of the quality and style of the recording, AND the fact that your own system is adding subtle, low-level distortion on top of that again -- essentially a variety of IMD, Intermodulation Distortion. Your head says "Enough, get me out of here! I'll put on a decent recording instead". It overloads your auditory system trying to deal with too many levels of distortion and voila, listening fatigue. Thus, a lot of people who have systems that generate the type of distortion I'm talking about to a significant level are stuck, doomed to be only able to enjoy listening to "perfect" recordings.

Where I am coming from is to say one DOES have a choice: continue to accept that one's system keeps injecting this low-level distortion into the sound and only put on recordings which are of "acceptable quality", OR work as hard as one can to eliminate as much of that system generated distortion as possible, meaning that one's ear/brain is then nowhere near as stretched dealing with less than brilliant recordings. And, lo and behold, you can then thoroughly enjoy listening to really, really crappy recordings!

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, I would claim you, and others, can hear jitter effects and all the other distortion elements I have been talking about.

You can claim that, Frank, but I'll continue to disagree with you and to point out that there is no good reason to believe that audible levels of jitter in my system would make mediocre recordings unlistenable while having no audible ill effects on the best recordings in my collection. In fact, it would be more logical to expect that if you took all the recording distortion out of the way, distortions in my system would be more clearly revealed. And even if there were a reason to expect such an unexpected result, I'll not worry about jitter because there are really only a few of recordings in my collection that I find really difficult to listen to and I know what the problem is with the overwhelming majority of them -- they are brick-walled and juiced up beyond reason.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying my system is perfect. Far from it. Perfection seems to be a matter of opinion in this game anyway. But there is little doubt about it's strongest suits: It's exceedingly clean and revealing. Oh yeah, and the pinpoint imaging is ungodly good, which is an indicator of lots of things done right, including the eradication of small distortions. It works for me, anyway. Think I'll enjoy the music and not worry for the time being.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Fair enough, Tim, if you are enjoying your system then that is all that matters! Trouble is, I have heard so many systems make a terrible mess of "difficult" recordings, and from comments I read I surmise that there are still a lot of people out there who are not 100% happy with what they've got. I am also sick of going to events which have amplified music somewhere in the mix, and having to put up with excrutiating sound! "Audiofools" may be a bit mixed up, but the pro guys are just as bad, going right to the other end of the seesaw!

Truth is, I am being very selfish here: I want at least a couple of people who may be responsible for the audio sound I have to put up with when I go somewhere to get a clue or two about how to make it better, so I don't have to watch a stage musical, say, and stick my fingers in my ears at the same time ... :-(|)

Frank

 

[fas42]

Sorry, Tim, one last quick question: if you put your ear near, a few inches away from, the tweeter on one side do you have trouble pinpointing that the driver is working, that is, if you close your eyes at that point would you have any trouble pointing to exactly where the tweeter is? Just curious ...

Thanks,
Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Sorry, Tim, one last quick question: if you put your ear near, a few inches away from, the tweeter on one side do you have trouble pinpointing that the driver is working, that is, if you close your eyes at that point would you have any trouble pointing to exactly where the tweeter is? Just curious ...

Thanks,
Frank

Not sure I understand what you mean, Frank. If my ear is just a few inches from the tweeter, no, I don't think I'd have trouble pointing to it. It's when my ears are a few feet from them that their position becomes illusive.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Okay, I was just wondering whether you actually tried this experiment. For me, when a system is not quite there or worse then I would say exactly what you just said, it would be no trouble at all pinpointing it. It is only when that last bit of troublesome distortion is eliminated that the "sound is real" trick works, and then I find it impossible to locate the tweeter by ear alone. As I said in an earlier post, it was a classic WTF moment when it first happened for me ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Okay, I was just wondering whether you actually tried this experiment. For me, when a system is not quite there or worse then I would say exactly what you just said, it would be no trouble at all pinpointing it. It is only when that last bit of troublesome distortion is eliminated that the "sound is real" trick works, and then I find it impossible to locate the tweeter by ear alone. As I said in an earlier post, it was a classic WTF moment when it first happened for me ...

Frank

No I've never actually tried it, but I'm still lost. If good stereo speakers are doing what they should do, they are hard to locate from feet away. Heck, a few inches is no test of the illusion of reality. Put a guitar, a voice, a trumpet a few inches from my ear and I'd definitely be able to point to it. I think we're not understanding each other. Do you mean can I differentiate the tweeter from the woofer from a few inches away? Or are you asking if I hear the speaker, not the instruments being reproduced. I'm quite confused.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Sorry to confuse you! Once experienced, the words I use to describe the phenomenon make sense; it's just a bit difficult to get the concept across at first ...

There are many variations to this sound experience, so I will try describing one of the other ones. Put on a true mono recording that is of very good recording quality, probably something from the 50's or 60's, that has a lot of depth to it, a good natural acoustic has been captured in the performance, where it is clear that the performers are not right on top of the microphones. Start by standing in the centre as if you had just got up from your normal listening seat, obviously the music will appear in the middle between the speakers. Then start shuffling sideways, say to the right, still facing directly in front towards the line between the speakers: if all goes well the music will follow you, meaning that the sound no longer appears to be coming from the centre of the speakers but is now closer to the right hand speaker, directly in line with where you're looking straight in front. If you look at the right speaker at this point you should have no sense of any sound coming from it. If all goes well you should be able to get all the way to the inside edge of the right speaker at normal listening distance with no sense of any sound coming from that right speaker.

Then, still in line with the inside edge of the right speaker, start shuffling directly forward. If you've hit the jackpot you should be able to get to totally next to that edge of the speaker still with the musical images directly in front of you, and no sense of anything coming from the right speaker.

Does that make sense and work with your system?
Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Sorry to confuse you! Once experienced, the words I use to describe the phenomenon make sense; it's just a bit difficult to get the concept across at first ...

There are many variations to this sound experience, so I will try describing one of the other ones. Put on a true mono recording that is of very good recording quality, probably something from the 50's or 60's, that has a lot of depth to it, a good natural acoustic has been captured in the performance, where it is clear that the performers are not right on top of the microphones. Start by standing in the centre as if you had just got up from your normal listening seat, obviously the music will appear in the middle between the speakers. Then start shuffling sideways, say to the right, still facing directly in front towards the line between the speakers: if all goes well the music will follow you, meaning that the sound no longer appears to be coming from the centre of the speakers but is now closer to the right hand speaker, directly in line with where you're looking straight in front. If you look at the right speaker at this point you should have no sense of any sound coming from it. If all goes well you should be able to get all the way to the inside edge of the right speaker at normal listening distance with no sense of any sound coming from that right speaker.

Then, still in line with the inside edge of the right speaker, start shuffling directly forward. If you've hit the jackpot you should be able to get to totally next to that edge of the speaker still with the musical images directly in front of you, and no sense of anything coming from the right speaker.

Does that make sense and work with your system?
Frank

Got it. I thought for a moment that like America and England, we were separated by a common language . Not so. I know exactly what you're talking about and have heard it often without attempting to. I listen in a near field configuration and to a lot of 50s jazz recorded very well in mono. In the near field, there is no need to shuffle around. Lean one way or another and the music moves with you. Lean forward and the image moves back. With the speakers toed in a bit, I've even leaned in until my head was between them and was amazed to find that the music was still dead center, seemingly hovering slightly behind the speakers. This kind of precise imaging is not realistic in the sense that it is like a live event, but it is a remarkable phenomenon to behold, and I personally prefer it to what most audiophiles refer to as "sound stage," (all mileage is free to vary, of course) as I'm trying to reproduce the recording, not an imagined event. I also agree that while the drivers and the way they're put together is important for staging, electronic component integrity is critical to creating the effect we're talking about.

We're way off topic here and I apologize to the board for the thread drift. But after some initial thrashing about, Frank, I've really enjoyed the conversation. Perhaps we should continue it in another thread? Tell you what: I'll go start one called Imaging or Sound Stage? Perhaps some others will join in.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Glad to hear how well it works for you! Agreed, this is now way off the mark, and like Tim I do apologise to all those bored to tears by our yabbering ...

Agree about the new thread. Go for it, and I'll follow your lead.

Cheers,
Frank

 

[MarinJim]

I have a Burmester 089 cdp/dac/pre with a limited edition Hegel H10. If anybody near San Francisco bay area has a Devialet, I would love to do a A- B listening session. Thanks

 

[Orb]

I have a Burmester 089 cdp/dac/pre with a limited edition Hegel H10. If anybody near San Francisco bay area has a Devialet, I would love to do a A- B listening session. Thanks

The good news is that there is a US distributor now, so should see these popping up at certain dealers now.
Here is the distributor and can search for dealers or best to email them to see possibility of it coming to your region anytime soon.
Audio Plus Services:
http://audioplusservices.com/

Cheers
Orb

 

[MarinJim]

Thanks, but nothing in the Bay Area.

 

[JBevier]

Devialet D-Premier

Stay tuned - a demo unit will be making it's way to SF shortly. Dealer conversations are in process.

BTW - a major oversight has taken place in most all of the early reviews of the D-Premier. Analog input #1 can to totally customized for impedance, capacitance and resistance to match the exact characteristics of your phono cartridge. The factory will supply a custom made configuration you download on to the units SD card - inset, power up - viola - your analog rig is perfectly matched. The analog stage is not inferior to the digital sections, since less than an inch later, the analog signal becomes digital via a set of dual differential 24/192 studio quality A/D convertors.
There's a review to be released shortly that will detail this more in-depth system set-up execution.
My best - J

See more details in these two attached files - sorry the really good one is 2.9M - forum limit is 1.9M:

 

[MarinJim]

Merci

 

[Orb]

Stay tuned - a demo unit will be making it's way to SF shortly. Dealer conversations are in process.

BTW - a major oversight has taken place in most all of the early reviews of the D-Premier. Analog input #1 can to totally customized for impedance, capacitance and resistance to match the exact characteristics of your phono cartridge. The factory will supply a custom made configuration you download on to the units SD card - inset, power up - viola - your analog rig is perfectly matched. The analog stage is not inferior to the digital sections, since less than an inch later, the analog signal becomes digital via a set of dual differential 24/192 studio quality A/D convertors.
There's a review to be released shortly that will detail this more in-depth system set-up execution.
My best - J

See more details in these two attached files - sorry the really good one is 2.9M - forum limit is 1.9M:

Thanks for the extra info as well.
I also like how the RCAs can also be configured as both digital or analogue and input or output.
This is great if using such as an external headphone,sub,etc.
I have not used the software myself yet, but the support from Devialet is good and they were willing to send me a config file very quickly when I asked about such options.


Relating to reviews, I think Paul Miller was using a preproduction unit and that did not have the same analogue capability as the production ones.
JBevier, please let us know when the latest review is available, will be good to read.

Thanks again
Orb

 

[JBevier]

Great diagram that shows the basic signal path, and chart that shows the levels of distortion removal across a wide set of parameters the D-Premier addresses versus the majority of high-end units for sale:

My best - J

 

[MarinJim]

Sorry fo sounding like a newbie, but does the removal of distortion change the sound always for the better?

 

[RUR]

For the Devialet, Miller's always thorough measurements may be found here, link about half-way down the page. Get yourself a password, as this is a terrific resource.

 

[JBevier]

Hi MarinJim, (Nice place to live if your name is a clue to your address!)

It's an interesting question that needs to be chased after from different starting positions.

On the one hand, sound isn't subjective - it exists with or without our perception of it.
What is subjective is whether the sound you hear is enjoyable to you or not - that's your interpretive decision. One listeners love of Bartok might be someone else pleading, "Get me the hell out of here!"

That said, how does distortion influence both the existential quality of sound, or our interpretive process of enjoying or disliking sound, especially as it related to audio reproduction (Hi-fi)?

Let's quickly dismiss the distinction of additive distortion to the existential quality of sound - the two can't be separated - sound is what sound is. Energy waves traveling through space, registering in time (Frequency).

In audio gear we have additional layer of complexity to sort through. If we ask, how does the original live musical event compare to the recorded then reproduced one, we can respond through an entire range of answers - "the same, pretty close to the same, hard to tell, not at all, it was terrible", etc. To make matters worse, each persons response might be different depending on the musical material - remember the screaming Bartok hater above. If there's a differential between the two, beyond liking the content or not, can we call this a distortion? I think we can. Famed French designer, Yves-Bernard Andre explained to me years ago he had identified several major categories of distortions that he systematically tried to remove from his electronics - 1) magnetic based distortions, 2) thermal caused distortions, 3) vibratory caused distortions, and 4) electrically based distortions. His reasoning, and I happen to agree with his train of thinking, is that electronics, loudspeakers and even the very room you place your equipment into for playback, should not overlay it's own unique "Sound" (Read - alteration / distort...ion) into the reproduction of the original musical event. Way easier said than done!

Fast forward 20-years and consider what the engineers at Devialet have accomplished. Our industry seems to have come to consensus and identified the following distortions electronics can introduce into the signal path that will result in a veering away from the accuracy of the original musical event we try so hard to reproduce. These are: A) Signal to Noise Ratios, B) Total Harmonic Distortion, C) Intermodulation Distortions, D) Electrical Impedance, E) Bandwidth and Phase Distortions, E) Thermal Distortion.

Systematically remove or reduce these influences, and we should be left with only the musical event itself.

I've heard thousands of different hi-fi systems over the past 30-years that can claim a gold medal in what I call "Audio Gymnastics" - they image, they have bass, extended highs, they have speed, they have proper tone, realistic dynamics (Micro & Macro), name the parameter and they seem to have it. Some of these systems have been ungodly expensive, others more modest in cost.

What I've heard / experienced (The distinction here is the first involves the ears, while and second uses the ears as a pathway to the heart) only a handful of times are systems whose capacity holds me emotionally hostage, stops my analytical nature (It's how I make my living) and empties my head to the music and the passion and the emotion of the original performers. You instantly know it - your body can't lie. Tears, shortness of breath, goosebumps, etc.

My conversation has gone on far too long - to give you my answer to your question - does the removal of distortion always change the sound for the better? In my opinion, I think it does.

My best - J