Grounding system Shunyata Altaira vs Synergistic Research vs Nordost
- Thread starter Chauncey79
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I found a significant difference in clarity (less noise, more articulation) with the Shunyata Altaira. I used Shunyata sigma cables from components to the Altaira and an Omega ground cable from the Altaira to the Everest power distributor. It appears that the idea is to create a common ground between components and importantly, isolate each component. The Altaira does this. Then have a good "drain" which is supplied via way of the Everest although I guess you could use any form of "earth ground." The improvement was noticeable for both analog (tube) and solid state components. I have not tried the Nordost grounding unit in my system, but at a dealers, it did not appear to provide the same level of noise reduction, but different systems, different rooms, etc that might not be a valid observation.
Currently using Isotek V5 Titan from a dedicated 20amp circuit. Also have a Isotek V5 Aquarius plugged into the Titan.
I noticed Isotek and AudioQuest don't make a grounding system. Do you think others are going to follow Shunyata?
Do you think more manufacturers will start adding ground terminals? I don't think any of my gear has it now, even Isotek.
I noticed Isotek and AudioQuest don't make a grounding system. Do you think others are going to follow Shunyata?
Do you think more manufacturers will start adding ground terminals? I don't think any of my gear has it now, even Isotek.
Puritan 156, GroundMaster and/or City and RouteMaster
www.puritanaudiolabs.com
PSM156 - Puritan Audio Laboratories
PSM156 Studio Master Mains Purifier The PSM156 builds upon the brilliance of the legendary PSM136 retaining the precision symmetrically balanced circuitry and 6 fully independent outputs. Increasing the number of independently tuned filter elements from 39 to 52 enables your system to deliver...
I am using two Altaira SG-NR hubs for two zones of signal grounding and have Typhon T2-30amp and Everest 8000 power conditioners. The Altaira units are chassis grounded to the Everest (via post #7 on Altaira) as are all other components. All cables are Sigma v3 with STIS terminations. VTX-Ag ground tails are used where needed for signal grounding, otherwise it's STIS spades and bananas.
I cannot comment on SR, CAD or Nordost, or others, as I've not used them and will not as I'm all-in with the Shunyata solution from proved audible benefit, price/value points of view. Shunyata's research in this area and their attention to detail is very impressive to me.
I have an Isotek Sigmas power conditioner to power all my source components (AudioNET Pre G2 Pre Amp, Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC, AudioNET PAM G2 Phono Stage, Roon Nucleus+ Music Core & Naim Uniti Core Server) and Shynyata Altaira Chassis Grounding unit recently introduced a Shunyata Denali Power Conditioner as a replacement for my existing Isotek Sigmas, as I am currently awaiting my ordered Shynyata Altaira Chassis Grounding unit to ground all my analogue gear, plus my AudioNET Max Mono Power Amps 7m from my component rack. I temporarily had the Shunyata Denali Power Conditioner on demonstration audition and connected to my AudioNET Max Mono Power Amps which draw significant power current with only very minor improvement in upper treble simblence and a slightly more defined bass.
It has now been moved to my source components with no discernable difference from my Isotek Sigmas power conditioner, however it will be incorporated into the Shynyata Altaira Chassis Grounding unit when it arrives shortly, by my retail distributor for installation.
The Shunyata Denali Power Conditioner has a grounding connection plug on it for easy incorporation into the systems Chassis grounding system with the Shynyata Altaira Chassis Grounding unit.
I will keep you informed of my further systems tweaking (Grounding) progress, following installation of the Shynyata Altaira Chassis Grounding unit and what sound difference it has made to my systems sound.
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I second that! There are few "real deal" engineers in the cable and accessory space. Caelin is one of them. My Altaira is on the way after hearing what a jaw dropping improvement it made to the sound of my amplifier at a recent visit and listening session in Robert Harley's listening room.
Will be interested in your report on this addition to your system.
Hi - I have been using the Synergistic Research Active Ground block for a few years now. It works as advertised by providing a star grounding location for all the cables and equipment in my system. With all electronics and cables at the same ground potential, the hum and background noise is eliminated providing for the black backgrounds that audiophiles crave. I haven't used the others, but the basic idea is the same and I expect they will all work equally well. I would expect most people will go with the brand provided by their cable supplier. The advantage of the SR grounding system is that it allows for grounding up to 32 items together, including cables.
Shunyata done all out with separate boxes for Signal and Chassis and maybe even another for digital, plus cables can quickly get you into the $10K to $15K range. Keep that in mind. It can add up quick so you hope your getting a real and audible return.
Judging these boxes can be tough as you are suppose to let them sit for a day or 2 to so to speak, fully saturate? Then when you unplug them, people will say, well you didn't hear anything because it takes some time to dissipate. Maybe some people hear an instant result. People with Shunyata can comment.
I am not that level of player so I tried a Puritan Routmaster and Citymaster. About $1K with cables.
If I try the game of plugging in and unplugging, I don't hear anything.
My stereo is pretty darn quiet. I have a 4.5KVA single core Torus feeding an all copper Benjamin panelboard. I have a nice ground to earth star grounded into my primary panelboard. The primary panelboard is all copper. I have multiple circuits to my room. But for the most part use 2. 1 for amps and 1 for the front end. I also have an Akiko Corelli plugging into the power strip that feeds the front end and digital. When I sit and listen, my general impression is, its a very quiet, very clean and musical system. When I add the Puritan, I sort of feel the same. I don't really know if it more of less clean. I just unplugged my Puritan and will let it sit and listen in an hour. Then plug it back in and listen again. I have sort of been doing this for weeks now. I'm not sure there is anything I can stake a flag into and claim results.
I try and be cognizant about how your brain can trick you. I have heard people say and feel I experience myself that playing something twice, I hear a change the second time. I don't know why. Sort of like reading a book twice. The second time your not learning the characters and plot. Now you more aware what the author is trying to say. You get the meaning of the story. I find playing a song twice and it sounds different the second time. Many times its better.
How about this. It has done 0 harm. And maybe its just a little more??????? Maybe?
Judging these boxes can be tough as you are suppose to let them sit for a day or 2 to so to speak, fully saturate? Then when you unplug them, people will say, well you didn't hear anything because it takes some time to dissipate. Maybe some people hear an instant result. People with Shunyata can comment.
I am not that level of player so I tried a Puritan Routmaster and Citymaster. About $1K with cables.
If I try the game of plugging in and unplugging, I don't hear anything.
My stereo is pretty darn quiet. I have a 4.5KVA single core Torus feeding an all copper Benjamin panelboard. I have a nice ground to earth star grounded into my primary panelboard. The primary panelboard is all copper. I have multiple circuits to my room. But for the most part use 2. 1 for amps and 1 for the front end. I also have an Akiko Corelli plugging into the power strip that feeds the front end and digital. When I sit and listen, my general impression is, its a very quiet, very clean and musical system. When I add the Puritan, I sort of feel the same. I don't really know if it more of less clean. I just unplugged my Puritan and will let it sit and listen in an hour. Then plug it back in and listen again. I have sort of been doing this for weeks now. I'm not sure there is anything I can stake a flag into and claim results.
I try and be cognizant about how your brain can trick you. I have heard people say and feel I experience myself that playing something twice, I hear a change the second time. I don't know why. Sort of like reading a book twice. The second time your not learning the characters and plot. Now you more aware what the author is trying to say. You get the meaning of the story. I find playing a song twice and it sounds different the second time. Many times its better.
How about this. It has done 0 harm. And maybe its just a little more??????? Maybe?
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I want to say one more thing. I have had a couple people confidentially tell me they tried an Altaira and heard nothing. I have had a couple others say they have tried the Altaira and its a suble improvement.
Both of these groups are going very limited and only try 1 unit and a few cord.
It seems the people who really love the Altaira have a minimum 2 box. A signal and a Chassis. And very likely have a 3rd to separate the digital. And most all have a Everest or Denali to plug the Altaira into. Those are the people very excited about what they hear. A real investment. So if your going to approach it from a 1 box and a couple Venom entry cables, understand your not installing the equipment as Shunyata says it should be done. Shunyata says 2 or more boxes is the right way to go.
I have therfore wondered what would happen if I put 3 of the Puritan Groundmasters to my system?????? What if my digital got one, my front end got one and my amps got one. Would I hear something I could state more definitively??? I don't know.
Both of these groups are going very limited and only try 1 unit and a few cord.
It seems the people who really love the Altaira have a minimum 2 box. A signal and a Chassis. And very likely have a 3rd to separate the digital. And most all have a Everest or Denali to plug the Altaira into. Those are the people very excited about what they hear. A real investment. So if your going to approach it from a 1 box and a couple Venom entry cables, understand your not installing the equipment as Shunyata says it should be done. Shunyata says 2 or more boxes is the right way to go.
I have therfore wondered what would happen if I put 3 of the Puritan Groundmasters to my system?????? What if my digital got one, my front end got one and my amps got one. Would I hear something I could state more definitively??? I don't know.
I had the same concern as you regarding demonstrable proof of efficacy. I once asked someone with a Tripopint if I could disconnect it to hear the results and connect it again but the owner politely declined. However, at AXPONA a few years ago I asked Bea Lam if I could do the disconnect/connect experiment in her room with the Nordost QKore 1and 3 and she kindly agreed. We were playing a superb live recording of Beethoven's 1st piano concerto on LP and I'll be damned but I heard the difference with and without instantly. It wasn't hard to appreciate. So I bought the QKores for my front end and have been very pleased. I have not done a thing about my Mephisto amps with regard to grounding and that is my present quandry. It's tempting but not inexpensive. Hmmm....
Marty, I have met a lot of people with the QKore. They all say they hear it and would not be without it. Sometimes these people will change for something else.
I just remembered something. The guy who sent me the Puritan. He uses CAD in his system. I think he said he has a $900 box. He uses 3. 1 for the front, 1 the digital and 1 for the phono. He has nothing on his amps. So he has $3K plus in that ground system. I don't think the $900 includes the cable. Not sure.
He says CAD is a better unit and he is aware a shift for the better with it. That could be a route for you. 1 per each amp. If its $900 for a box and say $400 for a cord, its fairly affordable.
Anyone thinking about a full Altaira setup for $10K. I would first invest in a good filter. I am 100% positive you will hear a filter. Done right with the right gear, it will be heard as positive.
I just remembered something. The guy who sent me the Puritan. He uses CAD in his system. I think he said he has a $900 box. He uses 3. 1 for the front, 1 the digital and 1 for the phono. He has nothing on his amps. So he has $3K plus in that ground system. I don't think the $900 includes the cable. Not sure.
He says CAD is a better unit and he is aware a shift for the better with it. That could be a route for you. 1 per each amp. If its $900 for a box and say $400 for a cord, its fairly affordable.
Anyone thinking about a full Altaira setup for $10K. I would first invest in a good filter. I am 100% positive you will hear a filter. Done right with the right gear, it will be heard as positive.
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My Altair just arrived for an in-house evaluation used in conjunction with our WestminsterLab monoblocks amplifiers which by themselves are already quite and transparent amplifiers. As some of you may know, I experienced the Altair in Robert Harley's system with our amplifiers and the change was anything but subtle! I'll reserve more detailed comments until I have a thorough listen with my in-home system but I expect similar results. Needless to say RH's Wadax, Basis Transcendent front ends, CH top-line preamplifier, deluxe power delivery and well treated room is a very revealing system so we shall see if my more modest set-up delivers similar results. The speakers in use during my visit were the top line Wilson Benesch towers with dual subs reviewed in the latest issue of TAS.
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Hi Guys - I have a very complex system using all Synergistic Research cables, Power treatment, and room treatment. I had some issues with hum because of different ground plane levels between the several amps, preamp, digital, and the analog equipment in my system. As you know, the SR cables and components are designed to be grounded, and since I had the hum problem I first tried the least expensive SR Ground device, the "Ground Block". I was able to tie 18 devices together, both cables and equipment, and did hear an improvement by way of a reduction in the hum riding on the signal. Later, because I ran out of ground connectivity, I upgraded to the SR Active Ground Block which provides 32 ground positions. And also claims "UEF" properties. This Active Ground Block created a completely quiet background (Black, as they say) to the music.
As a Mechanical engineer, I doubted (and still do) doubt the far fetched explanations for the grounding products electrical effect (SR's UEF, for example) on the ground plane. But - I do believe that the real effectiveness of these products lies in their use of Star Grounding to connect all grounds to the same electrical location, resulting in the elimination of all hum. I think that the effect of hum may be at a Very low level in your system so that it isn't noticed until you connect one of these products to your system, were upon that almost subliminal hum is eliminated resulting in a "blacker" background.
The real key is in my opinion, the application of Star Grounding, which you can do (inexpensively) by connecting all the grounds in your system to the same location, then grounding that to the main house ground system.
Quick overview of my components: BAT Rex II preamp, Pass Labs XVR1 electronic crossovers (2), PS Audio DS2 DAC and SACD Transport, Oppo 203 Bluray player, VPI Signature 3 TT with the Lino C 2.0 phono preamp, Marantz AVP 8805 video processor, Sonic Frontiers Power 2 Amp, PS Audio Stellar 1200 monoblocks, Emotiva XPR DR2 amplifiers on the Maggie MG20 main speakers. There are 7 more amplifiers that power the other 13 channels of the video/audio system. As I said, complicated!
BTW - I had to use all XLR connection cables to eliminate hum from the system I don't use RCA cables because they are not as quiet as the XLR's.
Enjoy the music!
As a Mechanical engineer, I doubted (and still do) doubt the far fetched explanations for the grounding products electrical effect (SR's UEF, for example) on the ground plane. But - I do believe that the real effectiveness of these products lies in their use of Star Grounding to connect all grounds to the same electrical location, resulting in the elimination of all hum. I think that the effect of hum may be at a Very low level in your system so that it isn't noticed until you connect one of these products to your system, were upon that almost subliminal hum is eliminated resulting in a "blacker" background.
The real key is in my opinion, the application of Star Grounding, which you can do (inexpensively) by connecting all the grounds in your system to the same location, then grounding that to the main house ground system.
Quick overview of my components: BAT Rex II preamp, Pass Labs XVR1 electronic crossovers (2), PS Audio DS2 DAC and SACD Transport, Oppo 203 Bluray player, VPI Signature 3 TT with the Lino C 2.0 phono preamp, Marantz AVP 8805 video processor, Sonic Frontiers Power 2 Amp, PS Audio Stellar 1200 monoblocks, Emotiva XPR DR2 amplifiers on the Maggie MG20 main speakers. There are 7 more amplifiers that power the other 13 channels of the video/audio system. As I said, complicated!
BTW - I had to use all XLR connection cables to eliminate hum from the system I don't use RCA cables because they are not as quiet as the XLR's.
Enjoy the music!
If your dealing with ground plane level variation between outlets you can measure with a meter, you have not wired your room correctly. No one should purchase a ground box before optimizing the electrical infrastructure. Your placing a band aid over a gaping wound. FWIW a power conditioner is a band aid too unless you bring an appropriate dedicated feed to the unit.
I agree but disagree you comments on star grounding. There is 0 resaon you should be creating parallel ground paths for hum to be created between the ground on the power cord and a secondary tied to the chassis.
And I know ground devices from all these manufacturers are more advanced than a bolt or block of metal with all wires attached at a single point. Even a simple box wirh piezo minnerals and a properly constructed cable is creating a environment where stray electrons from induced EMF "may" be attracted too.
Lastly, I have never run into a hum issue with a properly wired room that was not equipment related. As in, the manufacturer has a signal ground wire too close to a power lead in the amp. Or the phono stage modulates RF into the signal that is then boosted.
Consider this. Most audio dealers have more gear connected throughout their store than you have. They don't have hum issues. They wired the store correctly for the load.
Propper grounding has little to do with earth and the rod in your yard. It has everything to do with what panelboard you used and how the wires are landed inside the panel. That is the critical ground point in your system. I do wonder how much affect a ground box will have if you actually have your panel made up properly. The comments I receive are mostly from my clients. A few random people will reach out. If they are my client, they have wired and grounded their loadccenter/panel correctly. Just because Harley has a dedicated room does not mean he used a dedicated panel designed for audio and that the branch neutrals and grounds aren't haphazardly landed in the box. Make your infrastructure correct a priority.
Last night I had my Puritan disconnected for hours. I played music. It sounded great. I plugged it back in, got water, used the bathroom. Just fiddled around for 10 minutes, then played more music. Honestly, I feel like it had more bass when I started with it unplugged. But for the most part I would say I heard nothing.
Thanks for the info on house grounding. These are all things that have been done here in my home. There is one effect you don't mention - that is the different resistance in the power wiring going from one piece of equipment to another. It takes only millivolts/milliamps to excite hum in some audio equipment, which star grounding of all together IN ADDITION to the normal power plug ground system resolves.
If you have 2 x 10 gauge wires going to your rack with 1 piece of equipment plugged into each, and the chassis of the equipment is properly bonded to the power inlet, and your panel is made up right, I see no reason a wire from one piece of gear to another piece of gear is doing anything other than creating a secondary ground path that is a loop.
Now, I can easily put a basic Fluke Scopemeter on you power line and show a massive distortion of the sine wave due to the equipment power supply distorting it. If you using a power strip and plugging way to much equipment into it, your creating a different type of issue that is creating noise. Why do you think almost every filter says it has isolated each plug from one another. Which is not fully true. 3, 5, 7, 9th and so on low order harmonics walk right through any filter. I have put a meter on all of them and seen if first hand. So you have 10 or more pieces of gear on a single wire feeding the filter. Put a scope on the branch wire feeding the filter and I bet you have 30% to 40% THD 3rd, 5th and 7th order harmonics on the branch wire. Your way over using the circuit. Especially if it a #12. God help you if its a #14 wire. Once your in the panel and you have a 1" x 1/8" piece of copper busbar fed by a 2/0 copper wire, the mass of the system can absorb that distortion. Its still there, but its now only 3% THD to the total load of the system.
Here is a tip. Never run a single wire to a stereo system under the belief you are limiting the potential for ground loops. Your creating far worse conditions in other ways.
Rex, having worked with you on my home's power system, my curiosity begs me to ask the following. How far do you get by having a very well executed panel and ground plane fronting your audio system. Because you do have that, can that be the reason you're not hearing a benefit from the Puritan hardware?
My personal observation only goes as far as the Shunyata grounding products. Their recommended implementation is what I've heard multiple times in different systems and, in my experience, provided a consistent level of perceptible improvement. As you note, it also requires a significant investment($). Yes, it usually requires time to go through the process. You have to let the hardware 'mature'.
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