Glucosamine scam???

[garylkoh]

I've been taking Glucosamine for the past couple of years, and while I doubt that it works, I've been keeping at it as you're supposed to have to take it for 3 years before it is effective. On a recent trip to Singapore, I was told that the form of glucosamine sold in the US is largely a scam. There is only one form of glucosamine that works, and that is crystalline glucosamine sulphate. Glucosamine Hydrochloride has never been shown to be better than a placebo. It seems that glucosamine sulphate is regulated as a drug in Europe, and hence any you buy from Europe needs to meet purity and dosage standards.

Even a quick search of the US National Library of Medicine I found:

Glucosamine Sulfate - likely effective for osteoarthritis

However,
Glucosamine Hydrochloride - insufficient evidence to rate effectiveness

Some products in the US that are labeled glucosamine sulfate are actually glucosamine hydrochloride with added sulfate. This product will likely have different effects than one which contains glucosamine sulfate.

Crystalline glucosamine sulfate in the management of knee osteoarthritis: efficacy, safety, and pharmacokinetic properties
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3400104/

Continuous administration for up to 3 years resulted in significant reduction in the progression of joint structure changes compared with placebo as assessed by measuring radiologic joint space narrowing (structure-modifying effect). The two effects combined may suggest a disease-modifying effect that was postulated based on an observed decrease in the risk of undergoing total joint replacement in the follow up of patients receiving the product for at least 12 months in the pivotal trials.

Glucosamine sulphate is highly unstable, and the stable version, crystalline glucosamine sulphate is patented by an Italian company Rotta Pharm.

Yesterday, when I got home I threw away all the glucosamine I've bought from Costco and etc. and have bought proper crystalline glucosamine sulphate manufactured by RottaPharm. Hopefully, my knees get better!

 

[Steve Williams]

It's a great placebo Gary but AFAIK it has never proved helpful even when used with chondroitin

Ever thought of just using NSAID's

 

[garylkoh]

According to the article I found, crystalline glucosamine sulfate was found to be effective. I haven't found anything on the effectiveness of chondroitin.

In a long term placebo-controlled trial:

The 106 patients on placebo had a progressive joint-space narrowing, with a mean joint-space loss after 3 years of -0.31 mm (95% CI -0.48 to -0.13). There was no significant joint-space loss in the 106 patients on glucosamine sulphate: -0.06 mm (-0.22 to 0.09).

Here's the full article: http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/ABSTRACTS/Long-term_Effects_of_Glucosamine.shtml

Doesn't show that it cures - just that the joint-space doesn't deteriorate more.

NSAID would just treat the symptom and not the underlying cause?

 

[Andre Marc]

It's a great placebo Gary but AFAIK it has never proved helpful even when used with chondroitin
ng
Ever thought of just using NSAID's

I actually think it helped me when I had an MCL strain a few years ago.

Maybe it was placebo but I'm back on it now getting ready for a tennis tournament.

 

[Steve Williams]

as I said it makes for a great placebo. Take it with chondroitin then and double your pleasure.

Gary if it is your knees for which you are taking the medicine have you ever considered an intra articular injection of "joint juice" specifically synthetic synovial fluid. This can be done as a single 6cc dose (Synvisc) into each knee or to use OmniVisc which employs three injections of 2cc's each given a week apart.

This works.

Throw your glucosamine away

 

[Andre Marc]

I've been taking Glucosamine for the past couple of years, and while I doubt that it works, I've been keeping at it as you're supposed to have to take it for 3 years before it is effective. On a recent trip to Singapore, I was told that the form of glucosamine sold in the US is largely a scam. There is only one form of glucosamine that works, and that is crystalline glucosamine sulphate. Glucosamine Hydrochloride has never been shown to be better than a placebo. It seems that glucosamine sulphate is regulated as a drug in Europe, and hence any you buy from Europe needs to meet purity and dosage standards.

Even a quick search of the US National Library of Medicine I found:

Glucosamine Sulfate - likely effective for osteoarthritis

However,
Glucosamine Hydrochloride - insufficient evidence to rate effectiveness



Crystalline glucosamine sulfate in the management of knee osteoarthritis: efficacy, safety, and pharmacokinetic properties
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3400104/



Glucosamine sulphate is highly unstable, and the stable version, crystalline glucosamine sulphate is patented by an Italian company Rotta Pharm.

Yesterday, when I got home I threw away all the glucosamine I've bought from Costco and etc. and have bought proper crystalline glucosamine sulphate manufactured by RottaPharm. Hopefully, my knees get better!

Gary, what are your specific issues with the knees? Do you also have a fitness routine to correct imbalances? Without one, deterioration is
is inevitable.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary if it is your knees for which you are taking the medicine have you ever considered an intra articular injection of "joint juice" specifically synthetic synovial fluid. This can be done as a single 6cc dose (Synvisc) into each knee or to use OmniVisc which employs three injections of 2cc's each given a week apart.

According to this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14679274

Intra-articular hyaluronic acid has a small effect when compared with an intra-articular placebo. The presence of publication bias suggests even this effect may be overestimated.

 

[Steve Williams]

According to this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14679274

way wrong. That review is 10 years old

I had OmniVisc injected as 3 doses last month and I can tell you that 90% of my pain is gone

Throw away your glucosamine

 

[Andre Marc]

way wrong. That review is 10 years old

I had OmniVisc injected as 3 doses last month and I can tell you that 90% of my pain is gone

Throw away your glucosamine

Wow! 90%? That is amazing Steve.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary, what are your specific issues with the knees? Do you also have a fitness routine to correct imbalances? Without one, deterioration is
is inevitable.

My left knee aches from years of intense bowling when I was younger. Now that I'm older, I would rather they do not deteriorate any more. I've been watching the videos Myles posted, and I'll have to get into that as a fitness routine.

 

[Steve Williams]

Gary

the other thing that I started 4 weeks ago that has been absolutely the best thing I've done to date for my knees (besides the Omnivisc) has been 2x weekly physical therapy for core strengthening exercises

Have you had an MRI of your knees. Is it mild degenerative changes or is it bone on bone?

Synvisc, Omnivisc works least effectively (if at all for bone on bone). Having said that my right knee is bone on bone but I can honestly say that I have at most only minimal discomfort with fast walking now

 

[garylkoh]

way wrong. That review is 10 years old

I had OmniVisc injected as 3 doses last month and I can tell you that 90% of my pain is gone

Throw away your glucosamine

It lasts 6 months, and then you need 3 more doses.

My mother is 78, and according to her, since she got the right type of glucosamine 2 years ago, her joints have been getting progressively better and pain has reduced to the point where pain killers are no longer needed.

I did throw away my glucosamine - the hydrochloride - and started today on the crystalline sulfate kind. Will let you know what happens after the next couple of months.

 

[Andre Marc]

My left knee aches from years of intense bowling when I was younger. Now that I'm older, I would rather they do not deteriorate any more. I've been watching the videos Myles posted, and I'll have to get into that as a fitness routine.

Gotcha. To be blunt Gary, without a trainer, it is going to be tough. I spent 9 months with a trainer back in 2010 and it changed my life.
I play 5.0 tennis against guys 20 years younger than me. You can hope and wish, but without the muscular structure that supports the knees
etc being in correct balance and strong, don't expect miracles. This can only be done proactively. The longer you wait the harder it is.

FYI, I still do the routines, with variation, that my trainer showed me a minimum of twice a week.

Sorry to be so direct, but I would love you to be pain free!

 

[Andre Marc]

Gary

the other thing that I started 4 weeks ago that has been absolutely the best thing I've done to date for my knees (besides the Omnivisc) has been 2x weekly physical therapy for core strengthening exercises

Have you had an MRI of your knees. Is it mild degenerative changes or is it bone on bone?

Synvisc, Omnivisc works least effectively (if at all for bone on bone). Having said that my right knee is bone on bone but I can honestly say that I have at most only minimal discomfort with fast walking now

Good for you Steve. I strained my MCL very badly three years ago, and I STILL do strengthening 2 to 3 times a week, along with core stuff, despite
being pain free.

 

[Steve Williams]

Gotcha. To be blunt Gary, without a trainer, it is going to be tough. I spent 9 months with a trainer back in 2010 and it changed my life.
I play 5.0 tennis against guys 20 years younger than me. You can hope and wish, but without the muscular structure that supports the knees
etc being in correct balance and strong, don't expect miracles. This can only be done proactively. The longer you wait the harder it is.

FYI, I still do the routines, with variation, that my trainer showed me a minimum of twice a week.

Sorry to be so direct, but I would love you to be pain free!

I agree

I found that much of the pain I was having in and around my left knee was postural related as I was poorly compensating for my gait. As a result I also had sciatica when sitting. This was completely eradicated after 2 physical therapy sessions and has not recurred

Also core strengthening is very important for obvious reasons

 

[garylkoh]

Gary

the other thing that I started 4 weeks ago that has been absolutely the best thing I've done to date for my knees (besides the Omnivisc) has been 2x weekly physical therapy for core strengthening exercises

Have you had an MRI of your knees. Is it mild degenerative changes or is it bone on bone?

Synvisc, Omnivisc works least effectively (if at all for bone on bone). Having said that my right knee is bone on bone but I can honestly say that I have at most only minimal discomfort with fast walking now

I had an MRI on the knees many years ago, and was advised to give up bowling. It was damaged by activity. I haven't had one done recently since moving to the US.... but I tend to avoid doctors here because all they seem interested in doing is to poke and cut.

Core strengthening is the next thing on my list of things to do.....

 

[garylkoh]

Gotcha. To be blunt Gary, without a trainer, it is going to be tough. I spent 9 months with a trainer back in 2010 and it changed my life.
I play 5.0 tennis against guys 20 years younger than me. You can hope and wish, but without the muscular structure that supports the knees
etc being in correct balance and strong, don't expect miracles. This can only be done proactively. The longer you wait the harder it is.

FYI, I still do the routines, with variation, that my trainer showed me a minimum of twice a week.

Sorry to be so direct, but I would love you to be pain free!

Thanks, Andre. Looks like next thing I need is a trainer

 

[Andre Marc]

I had an MRI on the knees many years ago, and was advised to give up bowling. It was damaged by activity. I haven't had one done recently since moving to the US.... but I tend to avoid doctors here because all they seem interested in doing is to poke and cut.

Core strengthening is the next thing on my list of things to do.....

Functional training should be the priority. Quads, hamstrings, glutes, and calves need to be the focus, along with core.

I am sure Myles Astor can ring in, as this is his expertise. I am sure he would agree with both Steve and I,
but he certainly has more technical knowledge.

BTW, when I strained my MCL, I also caused a partial meniscus tear. Not one of the doctors I went to advised surgery.
They all said the best course of action is rehab and strengthening. Well whadya know, it 100% healed on its own.
They are not so eager to cut and poke as you think.

 

[Steve Williams]

My left MCL has been torn for over 10 years but surgery was not advised because of chance of worsening arthritis

Andre

The ligament doesn't always heal on it's own. Depends where the tear is

 

[Andre Marc]

Thanks, Andre. Looks like next thing I need is a trainer

Either its a priority or not. I spent a good $1500 on a trainer over a 9 month period and it was the best money I ever spent.

How much is being pain free, being active, and doing what you enjoy worth?

My reward for putting in all the effort besides being pain free and functioning normally? I won the second tournament I entered.
I will never forget the that feeling. I buried my head in a towel and thought about those 9 long painful months rehabbing and strengthening.