Ears vs. Measurements

Phelonious Ponk

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Tom,

I would love to know what the "I trust my specs over my years brigade" and the "we are measuring the correct things brigade" really believe. A few of them openly claim the non audibility or insignificance of the so called small differences between amplifiers having decent specifications, but what are the beliefs of the others?

I imagine the ear's inability to distinguish gross distortions of the original signal fuels their belief in the non-audibility of differences between amps. Personally, I think I could easily distinguish a good SS amp operating under lots of headroom from a "75 watt" tube amp struggling to produce 40 watts. I tend to think those who can't hear tube warmth just haven't heard it enough, and don't quite know what to listen for.

Tim
 

Groucho

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There is a belief that if distortion increases with output power (as with these valve amps of yours, but not often with solid state amps) it sounds natural and good to the ear. I have noticed over the years that in movies, a way to convey an impression of extremely loud sound without requiring extreme dynamic range is simply to clip it (or at least distort it) heavily. So, if a valve amp goes into heavy distortion on transients, it may not be such a bad thing: an impression of being very loud and dynamic without requiring high power, and also easy on your ears.
 

DonH50

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The harmonics generated tend to make it sound "richer" or "fuller" and the higher harmonics add a brightness that is equated with "louder". At bass frequencies, the second harmonic moves an "unheard" tone at 40 - 60 Hz into the audible range of 80 - 120 Hz and so people are left with the perception of more bass. The latter is true whether it is the amp or the speaker doing the doubling, and it is usually the speaker...

One reason the IMD results were questioned was that, in controlled studies I recall and participated in, IMD was easier to detect because it creates non-harmonic (and thus "bad-sounding") frequency spurs (tones).
 

andromedaaudio

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I " think " if you stay well out of the hard areas / loads for tube amps/ sets ,meaning low speaker impedances and low efficiency and stay well within their power limits , the distortion will probaly be also much lower ,much lower then 1 % .
you probably can also conclude from that , that for example a set amp will sound much more vivid and cleaner /correct on an easy load .
I ve been comparing the extremes last year and this year , top SS ultra low distortion where boulder is famous for , and a very low output amp , plus i have compared them on the same speaker which not many have done/ been able to , i reckon .
I hoped for the boulder to win , but the set is simply more like the real thing , my suspicion is that the way the tube amp amplifies which is basically different from SS ,it simply lets more detail to come through .
I think the transistoramps break up the sound more and let less detail arrive at the listener .
I have done this comparison on several speakers one at the time changing amps .
Tubes are the amplification winners , if not driven out of their limits , and well executed in design.

Is my opinion so far
 

DonH50

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I have no idea how SS "breaks up the sound more". What I do know is SETs exhibit primarily 2HD, which is generally perceived as less annoying and in fact may be somewhat pleasing, compared to most SS amps that suppress the 2HD and exhibit primarily 3HD. And that tubes have much higher output impedance and so vary much more with (speaker) load. And that the instrinsic distortion series for a single tube is factorial, which does in fact mean it is lower than a bipolar junction transistor's exponential series. In the real world I doubt it matters, especially given a little feedback. I still think the bottom line is that tubes tend to be more colored (but do not have to be by any means) and people like that color. Including me, while recognizing it is not as low in distortion, but my system is all SS at the moment.

BTW, as a preamp, tubes have the advantage of having more voltage headroom than SS for most practical circuits. Tubes are more-or-less "voltage-mode" devices while transistors (some types) are "current-mode" devices.

And so forth and so on...
 

microstrip

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Many people only think about warm sound and false loudness when referring to tubes and want to carry a debate on tube sound focusing in these aspects. I think it is a very limited perspective. Modern good quality tube amplifiers do not suffer from any of these problems - in my case the preference is mostly due because they present music with more texture, real spaciousness and a better feeling of being there. I think I can see most owners agreeing with some of these aspects and adding others.

I own tubes mainly because IMHO they represent a better cost to quality ratio - I think I could have somewhat equivalent performance using solid state, but I would need to spend a lot more for this convenience.
 

andromedaaudio

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The amp i use is an integrated amp with vol control , i dont know if it has a kind of pre amp circuit .
But i wasnt refering to colour here , i know tube amp colouration sound pretty well i think .
A wooly warm softened romantic sound , but thats not what i mean or am after , i didnt try to compare it to Boulder and krell for nothing it had to have a goal
 

Atmasphere

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When JA measured the amp, the amp did not meet its specified power output of 75 watts. I think that many people are under the assumption that when they buy an amplifier, the amp does meet its stated output power and does so at the distortion levels advertised. The amplifier under review could only muster 61 watts of output power into a 4 ohm load from the 4 ohm tap. The kicker is that it could only reach 61 watts into 4 ohms at 1% distortion which JA further defines as driving the amp into clipping. The output power into 8 ohms from the 4 ohm tap was only 43 watts at 1% distortion. When JA drove the amp into 3% distortion, the output power increased to 46.5 watts into 8 ohms and 70 watts into 4 ohms from the 4 ohm tap. So even if you relax the distortion levels to 3%, the amp still falls short of its advertised power output which I find surprising for a number of reasons. When the output power was measured into an 8 ohm load from the 8 ohm tap, the power came close to meeting the specified power. The amp put out 70 watts from the 8 ohm tap into an 8 ohm load, but again it was at 1% distortion.

So here's the kicker: How does an amp that measures poorly in terms of distortion for anything approaching it's specified power output sound so good? Objectivists who love many zeros after the decimal point in their distortion measurements would surely cringe. Frankly, I also have a little problem with a manufacturer saying an amplifier puts out 75 watts a channel when it doesn't and not clearly specifying the distortion levels that will be required in order to approach the rated output power. I think it's called truth in advertising. So here we have a $9K amplifier that is specified as 75 watts per channel at 0.6% THD and it really can only muster 70 watts at 3% distortion. Some of you may remember a rant I went on long ago on this forum about specifications not being measurements and there were some naysayers who didn't get what I was saying at the time. The naysayers were under the impression that specifications in the absence of measurements were just fine and surely they really were the same. Here is a classic example of why this isn't so.

This question was answered in the 1960s by General Electric (regarding how we can like an amplifier that seems to have poor distortion figures). The human ear/brain system regards the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics as musical. OTOH, it uses the odd ordered harmonics, the 5th, 7th and 9th, as loudness cues- that is, to sort out how loud the sound is. Its important to understand that the ear is more sensitive to the presence of the 5th, 7th and 9th harmonics than it is to human vocal frequencies! It also helps to know that our ears are tuned to birdsong frequencies.

Armed with this knowledge we then take a look at the spectra of the amplifier in question and compare that to typical solid state. What you will see is that while the ARC has much more distortion overall, most of it is the 'musical' type. OTOH the transistor amp has more of the odd orders and so sounds brighter even though on the bench they measure the same from 100Hz to 10KHz.

I would not take ARC too much to task on the power measurements. There are two problems, at least one that may have escaped JA/Stereophile. The one that JA may have missed is line voltage- if measuring power, one should make sure that the line voltage is at spec when the amp is also at full power. You often need a variac to accomplish that. Depending on the amp, a drop of a couple of volts of AC power can rob the amp of a considerable amount of power, as much as 30%! Second, its quite normal to loose efficiency and bandwidth on the 4 ohm tap. Further, loading the 4 ohm tap with a lower impedance will predictably get vastly reduced power levels. IOW the 8 ohm measuremenjt is the one to be taken seriously.

BTW this opens the whole topic of impedance. Bluntly, in high end audio there is no good reason/excuse to build a 4 ohm speaker. If sound *quality* is your goal, the amplifier dollar investment is best served by an 8 or 16 ohm speaker, regardless of the technology of the amplifier. You can see this in the distortion specs of all amplifiers. Now if sound *pressure* is your goal, there is a slight advantage to 4 ohms. Further, if you are considering a tube amp, the measurements above should tell you that a 4 ohm load is obviously not serving that amplifier very well.

I'm not discussing how SS amps that measure somewhat close sound so different. This is more about a tube amp that is sold as a 75 watt amp at 0.6 THD and it doesn't come close to meeting those specifications and why in spite of that, it's still a damn good sounding tube amp.

This all has to do with distortion, not just that of the tube amp but that of the transistor amp as well. IOW, they both have colorations.

I imagine the ear's inability to distinguish gross distortions of the original signal fuels their belief in the non-audibility of differences between amps. Personally, I think I could easily distinguish a good SS amp operating under lots of headroom from a "75 watt" tube amp struggling to produce 40 watts. I tend to think those who can't hear tube warmth just haven't heard it enough, and don't quite know what to listen for.

Tim
The tube warmth does not apply to all tube amps- just those that have single-ended circuits in their topology. For example our amps are fully differential, and don't have any even ordered harmonics at all. Sunn, famous for guitar amps, made a series of solid state guitar amps in the 1970s that were known for their warmth. It came from extensive use of single-ended circuits in the preamps and power amps of those products. OTOH the brightness that is signature of many low-distortion transistor amps is simply coming from trace amounts of odd ordered harmonics, something that is typical of 99% of all transistors. IOW both tube and transistors have colorations if one is not careful about the topology.

I have no idea how SS "breaks up the sound more". What I do know is SETs exhibit primarily 2HD, which is generally perceived as less annoying and in fact may be somewhat pleasing, compared to most SS amps that suppress the 2HD and exhibit primarily 3HD. And that tubes have much higher output impedance and so vary much more with (speaker) load. And that the instrinsic distortion series for a single tube is factorial, which does in fact mean it is lower than a bipolar junction transistor's exponential series. In the real world I doubt it matters, especially given a little feedback. I still think the bottom line is that tubes tend to be more colored (but do not have to be by any means) and people like that color. Including me, while recognizing it is not as low in distortion, but my system is all SS at the moment.

BTW, as a preamp, tubes have the advantage of having more voltage headroom than SS for most practical circuits. Tubes are more-or-less "voltage-mode" devices while transistors (some types) are "current-mode" devices.
Feedback is a huge issue in amplifier design. If you examine the circtuit with respect to Chaos Theory, what you find is that the application of feedback to any amplifier creates a Chaotic system. If fact the formulae for feedback in an amplifier are identical to that of some classic Chaotic systems! So the amp likely appears to have a stable region, but then also has unstable (or less obvious, Chaotic response) regions as well. The stable window is the use of repetative signals like sine waves, often used for analysis. The problem is that audiophiles don't usually listen to steady state tones. They listen to waveforms that are constantly changing. Under such conditions, negative feedback acts as a destabilizing factor, often causing greater distortion than one would ever realize. With the advent of higher power computers, we likely have tools that can measure this stuff, but the industry lacks the ambition.

It is much easier to build a tube amp without loop feedback than it is with transistors. This is because tubes are indeed more linear. Now in case its not clear, the distortion that negative feedback adds to an amplifier is that of the loudness cues, the 5th, 7th and 9th harmonics. In essense, it will make any amplifier brighter, while it may not affect the actual frequency response on the bench.

Sorry about sentax/spelling errors. This site somehow disables my spellchecker.
 

Groucho

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This question was answered in the 1960s by General Electric (regarding how we can like an amplifier that seems to have poor distortion figures). The human ear/brain system regards the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics as musical. OTOH, it uses the odd ordered harmonics, the 5th, 7th and 9th, as loudness cues- that is, to sort out how loud the sound is. Its important to understand that the ear is more sensitive to the presence of the 5th, 7th and 9th harmonics than it is to human vocal frequencies! It also helps to know that our ears are tuned to birdsong frequencies.

Armed with this knowledge we then take a look at the spectra of the amplifier in question and compare that to typical solid state. What you will see is that while the ARC has much more distortion overall, most of it is the 'musical' type. OTOH the transistor amp has more of the odd orders and so sounds brighter even though on the bench they measure the same from 100Hz to 10KHz.

As was mentioned earlier, though, you can't have harmonic distortion without also having intermodulation distortion (on any signal other than a single tone). When we talk about "musical" types of harmonic distortion are we really talking about musical intermodulation distortion?

Is the frequency domain really the best way of describing what is happening? Is it, perhaps, that we like the sound of 'clipping'? (or whatever sort of limiting is going on with a valve amp vs. solid state). Does it mimic what our ears do in the presence of loud sounds, thereby allowing us to experience the effect of very loud sounds, but without the physical discomfort?
 

Atmasphere

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As was mentioned earlier, though, you can't have harmonic distortion without also having intermodulation distortion (on any signal other than a single tone). When we talk about "musical" types of harmonic distortion are we really talking about musical intermodulation distortion?

Is the frequency domain really the best way of describing what is happening? Is it, perhaps, that we like the sound of 'clipping'? (or whatever sort of limiting is going on with a valve amp vs. solid state). Does it mimic what our ears do in the presence of loud sounds, thereby allowing us to experience the effect of very loud sounds, but without the physical discomfort?
Apparently you *can* have significant THD (5%) while IM can be quite low. I've seen that often enough! You have to ask yourself, if a 300B is one of the most linear triodes around (and it is) why can an amp built from it have up to 10% THD? It does, yet its IM can be quite low.

IM is a special form of harmonic distortion, based on the modulation between tones due to a non-linearlity.

FWIW the ear is very sensitive to IM. This is one area where the specs and the ear/brain system get along quite well.

It may be that frequency domain is not the way to look at it, but its what most people understand. In recent tests in the last 5-6 years, its been shown that the ear/brain system has a series of tipping points. For example, the ear will favor distortion as tonality over actual frequency response variations. IOW, perfectly flat frequency response seems to be less important than a lack of the distortions that the ear detects as tonality (lower orders= richness/warmth/lushness, higher orders=brightness/harshness/hardness). Normally, the brain processes music in the limbic system, but if too many of the human hearing rules appear out of kilter to the brain, it will switch the processing to the cerebral cortex. IOE we now have some hard numbers on the subjective experience :)

Anyway, GE proved that humans don't like odd orders in trace amounts, but will tolerate up to 30% 2nd order without complaint. Its not that we like clipping at all, just that our ears use the odd orders to sort out how loud a sound is, and so are much more sensitive to odd orders than the best test gear.
 

DonH50

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Uh, I have no idea how you get THD without IMD matching classical theory. I have never seen that happen. Well, if the IMD is out-of-band, maybe, as might be the case with 2HD...

Chaos Theory makes my eyes glaze over. Yes, I have been exposed to it, in places like college classes and IEEE's CAS Journal, but I have never applied it in the real world. So, I have no comment on that directly. However, all feedback systems depend upon limiting the bandwidth so the loop is stable, or equivalently having enough loop margin (gain and phase over the signal bandwidth) to ensure stability. Putting impulse functions into any feedback system with higher-order terms in the transfer function will cause some sort of ringing if not outright unstable operation. That is usually a much bigger issue for RF than audio, but I will concede it happens in audio. However, it is the high frequency content that causes instability, not rapidly-changing waveforms. At least IME, AFAIK, etc.

Multitone analysis is not all that complicated. Or you could do an NPR test. Either way would show instability and/or IMD in the amp.

I know the intrinsic distortion series is lower in a tube. But I have not seen that make a lot of difference in the real world. Question: Are tubes more linear because they have lower gain and larger intrinsic degeneration? I could degenerate a transistor to reduce its gain and it will also be more linear.

I once built a fully-differential tube preamp. It was deemed "too SS sounding".

"syntax" :)

Interesting discussion, though perhaps straying from mep's original topic...
 

KlausR.

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Why anyone believes some elses ears is beyond my belief...

It is beyond mine, too: given the fact that in-ear response can be very different for different individuals, I wonder why anyone would seriously think that someone else’s description of how a components sound is relevant, except for that someone else of course.



DonH50 said:
I thought the W. Klippel study was the subject of some debate? Especially the THD vs. IMD levels since that ran (runs) counter to what has been taken as gospel for some time before? Not really sure, let my AES membership lapse long ago...

Klippel tested with single tone (harmonic distortion) and two tone (IMD) signals. Perception thresholds were the same for both, i.e. 1-3%. The more complex the signal/music gets, the higher are the thresholds for IMD. On the AES site the paper has not been debated.

Just found a thread on the uselessness of THD and IMD, started by Geddes himself:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/121253-geddes-distortion-perception.html

The IMD thresholds mentioned in the Klippel paper (1-3 % for two tone signals, 1-5 % for e.g. flute, 10% for music material with more spectral and temporal complexity, 30% and more for music with high transients and dense spectra) would confirm what Geddes says: “.01% can sound outrageous in some cases and 25% can be inaudible in others. The numbers are meaningless.”

I was trying to address the "why does it sound good" question…

How do you define or measure good, better, best? How do you measure taste? What sounds good to you may sound bad to me, or vice versa, so who is right? How DOES it sound? How does it sound in absolute terms? Can one describe sound in absolute terms?


Klaus
 

opus111

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Just found a thread on the uselessness of THD and IMD, started by Geddes himself

Its abundantly clear to me that Geddes is pushing his own particular agenda. IMD is not useless, its just the way its traditionally measured (SMPTE, CCIF with just two tones, high level) is next to useless. Belcher found good correlation with listening perception with his own particular kind of IMD test (akin to noise loading) - http://keith-snook.info/Wireless-World-Stuff/Wireless-World-1978/A new distortion measurement.pdf. Note this paper dates back to 1978, its not exactly news.
 

DonH50

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NPR = noise power ratio, a very stringent test originally developed (I think) for telephone systems. Essentially you provide a broadband noise source as the input with a very narrow, very deep notch at some frequency (swept through the passband during an actual test) and then measure the output to see how much the notch filled in. Nasty test...
 

microstrip

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are you about to tell me that your ear can discern signals (or wiggles in the air) better than my oscilloscope can? Micro, tell me ONE thing that ONE ear can do better than my measurements and dont make a joke of it. Your ear is inferior in every way to analyzing a wiggle in the air from a speaker compared to my instruments. and please do not start quoting me about stereo effect and what goes on inside our brain and directional cues etc, i am talking ONE ear decoding vibrations in the air. Do we have to have a lesson in masking and ear frequency response and fletcher munson again!!!! I would hope you are one of the last people left making your arguements after all has been discussed on this website and all the technical information here! dude, you're making me crazy !!

hearing small differences between amplifiers is no miracle, it just means there are small differences between amplifiers, and if i make them small enough, you can't tell one from the other, on tone or on music. ears have limitations, electronics in this case, do not when compared to a ear.


Sorry to make you crazy, I AM NOT talking about ONE ear decoding vibrations in the air. :) I am addressing stereo amplifiers, stereo sources and people with two ears and a brain that has large experience analyzing sound. My interest is learning about real correlations, not just seeing analyzis of pico or femtoVolt signals.

BTW I congratulate you on your oscilloscope, but I am not interested in debating its excellence. IMHO your typical naive-aggressive argumentation with plenty of "hopes" is one of the reasons why we still have so little useful correlation between SOTA sound quality (in stereo ;) ) and measurements. Surely all IMHO.
 
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microstrip

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Yes I'm left wondering why all those old, but very revealing, tests have been avoided for audio. My tentative conclusion is - everyone wants the smoke and mirrors game to continue...:cool:

Wise words. Everyone ...
 

stargate

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Mep,

You said it all - the room, the speakers and the levels.

About tubes: I have owned Sonus Faber Extrema's. One of the most difficult speakers to drive I have ever seen. Your KSA250 was one of the few amplifiers that could drive them properly. Some 1000W monoblocks and many other very powerful amplifiers did not manage them to sound powerful. Curiously a pair of pentode monoblocks having 55W each also could drive them perfectly, but surely not to the scattering levels of the Krell.

Get the CAT Statement amps at 150 power they will drive anything with pure tautness and pure liquid sound= ask any MBL 101-e users..
 

Atmasphere

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are you about to tell me that your ear can discern signals (or wiggles in the air) better than my oscilloscope can? Micro, tell me ONE thing that ONE ear can do better than my measurements and dont make a joke of it. Your ear is inferior in every way to analyzing a wiggle in the air from a speaker compared to my instruments. ears have limitations, electronics in this case, do not when compared to a ear.

The question was not directed at me but I can answer it easily. The human hear can discern odd-ordered harmonic content that you will not see on your scope. The typical phrase is 'buried in the noise' with respect to the instruments. That is to say, so there is no ambiguity, that the ear can indeed detect odd orders that don't show up easily on the instruments.

Yes I'm left wondering why all those old, but very revealing, tests have been avoided for audio. My tentative conclusion is - everyone wants the smoke and mirrors game to continue...:cool:
Got that right- in spades! *almost* everyone, anyway. As an industry and as hobbiests, we all have to think about the fact that the spec sheets we have been seeing for the last 45 years don't tell us a whole lot about how the equipment will sound, unless inverse correlations are considered. Lower damping factor amps often play better bass, higher distortion amps often sound more transparent, more detailed, less irritating and more musical...

Its pretty obvious that most of what we measure is not important to the human ear, and very little of what is important to the human ear gets measured. We simply have an arbitrary set of measurements that are based on made-up stories from long ago. Sad but true; if we actually had a regime where the measurements made *were* important to the ear, the industry would be in a very different state, probably a lot larger.
 

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