Does some gear "SUCK" because it is too revealing?

[caesar]

Can some gear be so revealing that it sucks? Over the last 10 years the Martin Logan CLS has had a renaissance as amps have come around to make it sing. Magico Q7 may have the same problem per another thread on this forum:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7818-Magico-Q7-Constellation-Performance-series

Any other gear like these 2 examples?

 

[Mosin]

A lot of it is, if you want my opinion. One of my main gripes at shows is that I hear rooms that are too bright and etched, although there are always some guys drooling over them. I would put the number at greater than 50%. I do believe that detailed and musical can be combined, however. YMMV

 

[audioarcher]

I think that if gear is emphasizing a certain frequency range over another it can be annoying. This is usually mistaken for more detail if the highs are elevated. If the whole frequency spectrum is more even then it is less likely to suck.

 

[rockitman]

It's all about the room. All these components can and do sound great with different sonic flavors. To me, a hotel room setup doesn't do the gear in question justice. There is gear that despite challenging room conditions, sounds pleasing. I think the OP's characterization that revealing gear "sucks" is a bit dramatic and is not seated in reality. I want my gear to reveal all of the music and not hide things so to speak (the vanishing noise floor)....Revealing to me does not mean a bright, etchy presentation.

 

[audioarcher]

It's all about the room. All these components can and do sound great with different sonic flavors. To me, a hotel room setup doesn't do the gear in question justice. There is gear that despite challenging room conditions, sounds pleasing. I think the OP's characterization that revealing gear "sucks" is a bit dramatic and is not seated in reality. I want my gear to reveal all of the music and not hide things so to speak (the vanishing noise floor)....Revealing to me does not mean a bright, etchy presentation.

I agree to a point. Small 2 way speakers should shine in the typical hotel room though. Less bass issues due to less bass reproduction. Those size rooms are what monitor speakers are designed for. I don't expect perfection at a show because of the limited time frame to dial in the sound but they should be able to get decent sound with speakers that are appropriate for the room they are in.

 

[rockitman]

I agree with that...when I think "good" revealing, I mean extremely low noise floors where you hear more of the nuanced/low level musical detail vs. boosted hi fequency information that gives you the sense you are hearing more at the expense of diminished listening pleasure (too bright, etchy on leading edge transients). Case and point...amplification. My news amp have such a low noise floor, I am hearing things on familar recordings I didn't hear with my previous amps(Pass XA 100.5's) and they were no slouch in the low noise/low level detail dept.

 

[audioarcher]

Agreed.

The show environment is also not conducive to a low noise floor due to noise from other rooms and people in the hall way as well.

 

[dallasjustice]

Not in my experience. The more revealing, the better all music sounds. It's just that simple. Redbook sounds like hi-rez. Hi-rez sounds even better. If you hear something that you don't like, it's usually a defect with the room or the gear or both.

Can some gear be so revealing that it sucks? Over the last 10 years the Martin Logan CLS has had a renaissance as amps have come around to make it sing. Magico Q7 may have the same problem per another thread on this forum:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7818-Magico-Q7-Constellation-Performance-series

Any other gear like these 2 examples?

 

[Sammy T]

My friend worked at a store that sold Krell gear some years back. Never liked the power amps , cold and harsh sounding. Just plain wear you out listening, along with Dali MS 5 speakers ... Ouch! The Dali's were so revealing ended up with a tube preamp, along trying different power amps. First up was a Pass X250.5, then X350.5, onto XA 160's . It ended up sounding best with the XA amps, still was not my cup of tea.

 

[andromedaaudio]

NO , the more revealing the better , it mostly results in bringing the acoustic ambiance to life among other things , which is a big plus for the overall listening expirience .

 

[asiufy]

Well, isn't that why we pay $$$ for extraordinary gear, to get all the information on the music, while still keeping it pleasant and non-fatiguing?
The case above is classic, with the Dali speaker. In my experience, those are relevating, yes, but also extremely harsh, and not only on the HFs. Mate them with Krell, and you got a recipe for disaster.
The problem here is that some people either can't hear all the harshness, or plain just like them that way. That's what complicates things for those who do not want that
In my experience, it takes very high end gear to provide all the resolution, with none of that harshness. A lot of the gear that's supposed to be "easy on the ear" are just rolled off in the extremes, so they SOUND pleasant, but obscure lots of information.
So, to answer the OP's question, yes, some gear might "suck" for being too releaving, but only if the quality level isn't up there, or the person can't hear the problems that the gear is bringing along with the clarity.


alexandre

 

[rblnr]

I think greater resolution should be an absolute goal of all xomponents Problems like harshness, etching, etc. -- these are not symptoms of too much resolution.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think greater resolution should be an absolute goal of all xomponents Problems like harshness, etching, etc. -- these are not symptoms of too much resolution.

This. Though I think ther are cases in which people are not used to high resolution, and hear it as harshness.

Tim

 

[mep]

My friend worked at a store that sold Krell gear some years back. Never liked the power amps , cold and harsh sounding. Just plain wear you out listening, along with Dali MS 5 speakers ... Ouch! The Dali's were so revealing ended up with a tube preamp, along trying different power amps. First up was a Pass X250.5, then X350.5, onto XA 160's . It ended up sounding best with the XA amps, still was not my cup of tea.

I have no idea what Krell amp you heard that sounded “cold and harsh,” but those are certainly two adjectives that I would never use to describe the sound of my Krell amp. I would be looking for the source of the problem elsewhere assuming the problem really existed in the first place.

 

[mep]

Well, isn't that why we pay $$$ for extraordinary gear, to get all the information on the music, while still keeping it pleasant and non-fatiguing?
The case above is classic, with the Dali speaker. In my experience, those are relevating, yes, but also extremely harsh, and not only on the HFs. Mate them with Krell, and you got a recipe for disaster.
The problem here is that some people either can't hear all the harshness, or plain just like them that way. That's what complicates things for those who do not want that
In my experience, it takes very high end gear to provide all the resolution, with none of that harshness. A lot of the gear that's supposed to be "easy on the ear" are just rolled off in the extremes, so they SOUND pleasant, but obscure lots of information.
So, to answer the OP's question, yes, some gear might "suck" for being too releaving, but only if the quality level isn't up there, or the person can't hear the problems that the gear is bringing along with the clarity.


alexandre

Let’s say a speaker is really a poor design and it sounds “harsh.” Shouldn’t it sound “harsh” with any amplifier that is telling the truth?? If you can make a speaker that has a built in defect sound “good’ or less “harsh," doesn’t that indicate that the amplifier is not transparent and has some issues of its own?

I guess I don’t get the whole point. I would be more interested in steering clear of poorly designed speakers than looking for a poorly designed amplifier that would compensate for the warts of the poorly designed speaker. I’m not into the “two wrongs make a right” theory in audio system matching.

 

[stereo]

Can some gear be so revealing that it sucks? Over the last 10 years the Martin Logan CLS has had a renaissance as amps have come around to make it sing. Magico Q7 may have the same problem per another thread on this forum:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7818-Magico-Q7-Constellation-Performance-series

Any other gear like these 2 examples?

I completely disagree. I heard the Q7 with several amps in the past, and they sounded gorgeous. I have heard several times most of ultra high end loudspeakers but (to my own humble opinion)nothing approaches the level of realism, the dynamism and the quality of timbre of the Q7. And yes, they are so transparent that the choice of amplifier will have a big impact on the experience. If you favor a warmer sound, use them with the big Dartzeel or a big class A like the Vitus.
I suggest you listen by yourself, in a good room (not a hotel room in a show) and build your own opinion.

 

[Gregadd]

I do think you can't be too transparent. But you can be too revealing. It's kind of like some of those HD televisions

 

[caesar]

I do think you can't be too transparent. But you can be too revealing. It's kind of like some of those HD televisions

Excellent point! I was thinking a long these lines as I was replying to Atma-sphere in another thread, but you nailed it. Superb tube gear seems to have all the details of the more analytic gear, but those details are presented in the right proportion, in an understated and a more refined way that makes music sound more real vs robotic.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I do think you can't be too transparent. But you can be too revealing. It's kind of like some of those HD televisions

So when this is the case, is the revealing system revealing distortion?

Tim

 

[Mosin]

So when this is the case, is the revealing system revealing distortion?

Tim

I don't know for sure, but maybe it is a matter of the manufacturer obsessing over detail, and neglecting a more elusive element. That may be why a lot of people hear a "dry" sound in certain high-end turntables and other equipment. I believe there may be a balance to be reached before a maker takes things too far. Or, maybe there is a resonance problem in equipment, yet to be identified, that causes a negative side effect that cannot be quantified by conventional means. Whatever it is that's wrong, it is there, and many of us can hear it.