Digital crossovers / room correction

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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Hi All,

I wondered if anyone here is using a digital crossover and / or room correction in their system and if so which software or hardware implementation are you using?

Best.
 

Tim Link

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Feb 12, 2019
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I'm using a modified Behringer DCX2496. It's not the best by any means, but it works well enough that I've never bothered to replace it. If I was starting over I think I'd go for MiniDSP. DEQX is a lot more expensive. Here's a thread about a listening comparison between all three. https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/minidsp/176544-minidsp-vs-dcx2496-vs-dcx2496-modded-vs-deqx.html

I don't know if there are any other viable alternatives out there for digital crossovers. Tact and Lyngdorf perhaps? I use the DCX parametric equalizers for some limited bass / room correction.
 

Brucemck2

Member Sponsor
May 10, 2010
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I use a Trinnov. Digital in and analog out. Digital at 96k and below isn’t resampled. Works great. The Trinnov performs both room correction and crossover duties. I cross at 50hz (having tried 40 through 80).

I used a Behringer but it had a bit of an mp3 compression-like “tizziness“ to it, even after heavy modding. The newer top of the line DEQX units sound decent as a crossover and speaker correction device, but is weak for room correction. MiniDSP performs in between those two, and the Dirac room correction functionality is a nice plus.
 
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Audiophile Bill

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Thanks guys. Have you tried the FIR based crossover filters with higher order networks at all?
 

shakti

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May 9, 2015
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I am listening regular a friends system, which is using Acourate filters integrated in Roon:

https://www.audiovero.de/en/

Accurate is a very powerful tool and can correct the speaker as such and can improve negative room effects as well, aside from a cross over functionality
 
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Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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I am listening regular a friends system, which is using Acourate filters integrated in Roon:

https://www.audiovero.de/en/

Accurate is a very powerful tool and can correct the speaker as such and can improve negative room effects as well, aside from a cross over functionality

Hi Shakti,

Yes I have been using Acourate for 5 years now. It is my preferred software albeit very fiddly. But as you say hugely powerful.
 
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shakti

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Hi Shakti,

Yes I have been using Acourate for 5 years now. It is my preferred software albeit very fiddly. But as you say hugely powerful.

Dr Ulrich Brueggemann, the owner of Audiovero was a frequent visitor at my place, I really enjoy to discuss with him, as he has a deep understanding of music reproduction. At a certain level of Acourate implementation, it is good to sometimes talk to him and to learn and to understand :)
 
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Zero000

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Jul 28, 2014
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I tried DIRAC software in conjunction with a Umik mic a while back and rejected it for sounding shite. Which it did.
 

Audiophile Bill

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I tried DIRAC software in conjunction with a Umik mic a while back and rejected it for sounding shite. Which it did.

How did you use it exactly, Justin?
 

Zero000

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As per the instructions. It's pretty simple you just run it with the test mic to let it calibrate itself.

You can adjust the FR by dragging a slope about but it starts of with a gentle downslope by default IIRC. Less severe than Magico build into their speakers I would say.

But it makes the sound appear to come from just the speakers. It's very effective at doing that and it is very hard to like it, I found.

The philosophy is just wrong if you ask me. I can explain why I think that if you are interested.

Bill if you want to correct for FR anomalies in a horn just use PEQ. And as little of it as you can get away with.
 

SCAudiophile

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Sep 11, 2010
1,186
473
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Greer South Carolina (USA)
Using Legacy/Bohmer "Wavelet" with Bohmer RoomEQ with Legacy Audio's VALOR speaker.

Prior that had another Wavelet with a custom integrated Legacy Caliber XD monitor speaker plus dual Legacy FOUNDATION subs.

I have also owned Wavelet for RoomEQ with Legacy Audio's AERIS speaker system.

Wavelet/Bohmer is unique as it operates in 3, not 2 dimension and handles {Frequency, Phase, Time}.
 

Brucemck2

Member Sponsor
May 10, 2010
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I’ve had good experiences with both Dirac and Accourate (And AudioLens). But, just just like bolting a new cartridge onto an unfamiliar tonearm, neither sounds great without considerable tweaking and fiddling. My Trinnov unit is no different.
 

Mark Seaton

WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
May 21, 2010
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www.seatonsound.net
While I haven't yet played with any products using the Bohmer Room EQ, I have played with and calibrated various systems with most other packaged options. I have heard systems and seen the results of using Accurate, but I haven't driven it myself.

The common thread for the best results comes down to being very conscious of the info/measurements you feed into the system, and having the ability to adjust the target while seeing the before measurement the system took. Did you take enough in the right locations? Did you include locations that aren't worth including or problematic to include? You may or may not want to let it correct full range, or you may want to adjust the target curve to largely parallel the response above ~1kHz. By far the most valuable detail is understanding and determining what you might not want the correction system to fix with your specific room and gear.

IMO the crossover function is a separate function to what we regularly call room correction, and sometimes should be included, and sometimes not. Many of the automated systems fail to sufficiently attack out of band resonances without manual intervention. As a speaker designer I'm still of the opinion that any crossover above ~500Hz needs to be developed and specified for the speaker itself in conditions not confused by the room's impacts. The only exception is for systems that might be flush mounted like in a studio or custom installed home system. Even there it's important to have "speaker only" data, and better to simulate the flush mounting elsewhere rather than in room. Subwoofer integration in a 2ch system can be dramatically improved with the appropriate settings and paired with a room correction system.

One of the best results I've achieved integrating subwoofers for 2ch use was actually using a Trinnov Altitude 32 in a dual purpose system with Focal Sopra 2 placed out in the room for 2ch listening where a different seat was optimized specifically for 2ch listening vs an area optimization for home theater use. I have briefly played with Trinnov's Amethyst in a store's demo room, and look forward to an opportunity to play with one in a permanent system, or even using a Trinnov Altitude for a 3-5 way stereo speaker system.

Even with automated systems, the crossover range usually requires some babysitting with external measurements to see how the response of each combines at the listening position. A few of the full FIR filtering systems have a higher likelihood of getting things right on their own if they correct phase/timing to ideally meet the targets, but many look at each speaker or sub in isolation without regard to how they will be blended. This is where having something like REW & a UMIK-1 running gives huge advantage to make sure the summed system response actually resembles the target curve you might be editing. I know we want to think that these expensive systems automatically would get all of this correct, but real world observation shows this to be the exception rather than the rule, and most are unaware of this likelihood when they evaluate the first pass result.

An interesting option I would consider, even if just for experiments or getting familiar with such systems, would be the newer MiniDSP SHD Processor which has Dirac room correction included. While not quite the very low noise floor available from higher end units, at the cost it's a very flexible unit for subwoofer/woofer - speaker crossover and correction.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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Hi Justin,

Sorry I was referring to the precise way you used it - did you correct the entire frequency response, which filters did you use, which convolver software?

I am well versed on Acourate so know the field quite well.
 

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
4,293
4,093
675
While I haven't yet played with any products using the Bohmer Room EQ, I have played with and calibrated various systems with most other packaged options. I have heard systems and seen the results of using Accurate, but I haven't driven it myself.

The common thread for the best results comes down to being very conscious of the info/measurements you feed into the system, and having the ability to adjust the target while seeing the before measurement the system took. Did you take enough in the right locations? Did you include locations that aren't worth including or problematic to include? You may or may not want to let it correct full range, or you may want to adjust the target curve to largely parallel the response above ~1kHz. By far the most valuable detail is understanding and determining what you might not want the correction system to fix with your specific room and gear.

IMO the crossover function is a separate function to what we regularly call room correction, and sometimes should be included, and sometimes not. Many of the automated systems fail to sufficiently attack out of band resonances without manual intervention. As a speaker designer I'm still of the opinion that any crossover above ~500Hz needs to be developed and specified for the speaker itself in conditions not confused by the room's impacts. The only exception is for systems that might be flush mounted like in a studio or custom installed home system. Even there it's important to have "speaker only" data, and better to simulate the flush mounting elsewhere rather than in room. Subwoofer integration in a 2ch system can be dramatically improved with the appropriate settings and paired with a room correction system.

One of the best results I've achieved integrating subwoofers for 2ch use was actually using a Trinnov Altitude 32 in a dual purpose system with Focal Sopra 2 placed out in the room for 2ch listening where a different seat was optimized specifically for 2ch listening vs an area optimization for home theater use. I have briefly played with Trinnov's Amethyst in a store's demo room, and look forward to an opportunity to play with one in a permanent system, or even using a Trinnov Altitude for a 3-5 way stereo speaker system.

Even with automated systems, the crossover range usually requires some babysitting with external measurements to see how the response of each combines at the listening position. A few of the full FIR filtering systems have a higher likelihood of getting things right on their own if they correct phase/timing to ideally meet the targets, but many look at each speaker or sub in isolation without regard to how they will be blended. This is where having something like REW & a UMIK-1 running gives huge advantage to make sure the summed system response actually resembles the target curve you might be editing. I know we want to think that these expensive systems automatically would get all of this correct, but real world observation shows this to be the exception rather than the rule, and most are unaware of this likelihood when they evaluate the first pass result.

An interesting option I would consider, even if just for experiments or getting familiar with such systems, would be the newer MiniDSP SHD Processor which has Dirac room correction included. While not quite the very low noise floor available from higher end units, at the cost it's a very flexible unit for subwoofer/woofer - speaker crossover and correction.

Mark - any personal experience implementing a FIR crossover with steep slope for any of your subs?
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Switzerland
I'm using a modified Behringer DCX2496. It's not the best by any means, but it works well enough that I've never bothered to replace it. If I was starting over I think I'd go for MiniDSP. DEQX is a lot more expensive. Here's a thread about a listening comparison between all three. https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/minidsp/176544-minidsp-vs-dcx2496-vs-dcx2496-modded-vs-deqx.html

I don't know if there are any other viable alternatives out there for digital crossovers. Tact and Lyngdorf perhaps? I use the DCX parametric equalizers for some limited bass / room correction.

I have one as well and I used it a lot for speaker design in the past...the internal DACs and opamps limit its sound quality though.

MiniDSP will have the same problem unless you go with a version that has digital out (I used the nano-digi with 2 external dacs). They also have a version with the advanced DIRAC room correction with digital out that would be nice as well.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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I am using the mini-DSP nano-digi, which is a digital in/digital out only solution. This is what I wanted because of my dissatisfaction with DACs that are typically built into the usual suspects for digital crossovers. I have had the Behringer DCX24/96, which is fine for design duties but not much else, IMO. There was another option from DBX but at over $3K, I wanted to spend less. Now I see MiniDSP has a direct correction crossover with digital outputs that could be interesting for more advanced correction; however, based on my measurements I don't think I really need it. I have done some parametric EQ on the horn and a shelf function to compensate for the constant directivty horn...that seems sufficient to get a nice in-room FR.

The sound quality, with good DACs, is WAY better than I hear from the typical digital xo solution and it seems pretty much artifact free.

I have also used Analog crossovers from Accuphase (F25, quite good) and Bryston ( not so good...quite electronic sounding). If you don't really need to correct the drivers at all then this works very well if the xo is good enough.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/first-trials-of-active-horn-speaker.28267/
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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I am using the mini-DSP nano-digi, which is a digital in/digital out only solution. This is what I wanted because of my dissatisfaction with DACs that are typically built into the usual suspects for digital crossovers. I have had the Behringer DCX24/96, which is fine for design duties but not much else, IMO. There was another option from DBX but at over $3K, I wanted to spend less. Now I see MiniDSP has a direct correction crossover with digital outputs that could be interesting for more advanced correction; however, based on my measurements I don't think I really need it. I have done some parametric EQ on the horn and a shelf function to compensate for the constant directivty horn...that seems sufficient to get a nice in-room FR.

The sound quality, with good DACs, is WAY better than I hear from the typical digital xo solution and it seems pretty much artifact free.

I have also used Analog crossovers from Accuphase (F25, quite good) and Bryston ( not so good...quite electronic sounding). If you don't really need to correct the drivers at all then this works very well if the xo is good enough.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/first-trials-of-active-horn-speaker.28267/

Hi Brad,

Which dacs are you using with the mini dsp?
 

Mark Seaton

WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
May 21, 2010
381
141
390
47
Chicago, IL
www.seatonsound.net
Mark - any personal experience implementing a FIR crossover with steep slope for any of your subs?

Hi Bill,

I've helped customers implement FIR crossovers to subwoofers through advice, info, or remote support with measurements, but not often, as understandably many only use FIR at higher frequencies as you greatly increase the latency for such low frequency correction. More often I've seen sufficiently steep IIR filters used, possibly with delay on the high pass section, and then impulse and magnitude correction is done after the two elements are reasonably blended as a whole. Acourate is probably where I would start with such efforts. I would expect a most important detail to be making sure the high pass FIR filters are complimentary in real use. As you increase the system to 3-4 way the cascading effects have to be paid attention to as well, where a fully integrated correction package to generate the filters becomes more important.

The big question is if you are really achieving any significant benefit given the wavelengths involved in a lower frequency crossover by going FIR as compared to just having an FIR filter unwrap any phase shift/flatten group delay of the summed result. At higher and higher frequencies I see an increasing benefit to FIR filtering, but still see the execution of deciding what you want to correct for and what location or locations of measurements to use for correction having more impact than the FIR crossover vs IIR if both executed by DSP.
 
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Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
4,293
4,093
675
Hi Bill,

I've helped customers implement FIR crossovers to subwoofers through advice, info, or remote support with measurements, but not often, as understandably many only use FIR at higher frequencies as you greatly increase the latency for such low frequency correction. More often I've seen sufficiently steep IIR filters used, possibly with delay on the high pass section, and then impulse and magnitude correction is done after the two elements are reasonably blended as a whole. Acourate is probably where I would start with such efforts. I would expect a most important detail to be making sure the high pass FIR filters are complimentary in real use. As you increase the system to 3-4 way the cascading effects have to be paid attention to as well, where a fully integrated correction package to generate the filters becomes more important.

The big question is if you are really achieving any significant benefit given the wavelengths involved in a lower frequency crossover by going FIR as compared to just having an FIR filter unwrap any phase shift/flatten group delay of the summed result. At higher and higher frequencies I see an increasing benefit to FIR filtering, but still see the execution of deciding what you want to correct for and what location or locations of measurements to use for correction having more impact than the FIR crossover vs IIR if both executed by DSP.

Thanks so much for your detailed reply - very helpful. I have been generating various Acourate FIR filters with very high order slopes for testing but realise that they are beastly files with shed loads of taps and only can be convolved with a PC rather than a hardware solution (at least that I know of). My main purpose for the FIR route was preserving phase whilst enabling a ridiculously steep filter.
 

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