DCS Vivaldi

[Fiddle Faddle]

Just to comment that it will only get better! I'm very much aware of how amazingly good Redbook can sound, in my experience there are almost no limits to the level of listening quality that can be achieved, even on the most unlikely CDs - the industry is now in a significant learning phase, and more and more gear will be of adequate quality to get the job done ...

CD makes a good case for taking the longest of all the established formats to mature. Of course we might also say that today - in 2016 - we are getting more out of the long playing record than we ever did before, but unlike CD, that format has been sounding wonderful for many decades. I am still always aware of the inevitable compromises in having to squeeze music - especially orchestral music - into a 44.1 KHz, 16 bit package and it remains a constant source of annoyance to me when I see day after day how much easier it is to cope technically (and thus musically) with something as unpretentious as 20 bit, 48 KHz. But CD is what it is and it is great we now have a means - albeit a very expensive one - of delivering the full theoretical potential of the format, compromised though it is.

 

[fas42]

Except, I don't see any compromises in the format. Deficiencies in the execution of the design of the playback devices, yes - but not in what has been captured in even early, "primitive" CD recordings. Squeezing? Not in the slightest - I've heard 80's orchestral recordings with enormous soundscapes, that stretch to forever - it's the playback chain that often "squashes" the sound into a mediocre representation of what is actually in the "grooves".

If the playback can't recover the low level detail well - and less capable CD derived reproduction frequently was very bad at this - then one won't get the "big sound" ... it only takes one instance of hearing "CD done right" to know that there are no problems, whatsoever, with the format ...

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Well I work with high res material all the time and am also creating CD masters from that material all the time. Unfortunately this puts me in a position of never having witnessed an audibly transparent conversion of high resolution material (even 44.1 KHz, 24 bit) to the CD standard. I am glad you cannot hear a difference or don't believe there is one, however that has never been the case for me. I dedicated a year of my life trying to make my CD masters sound transparent to the high resolution source and I failed. The 16 bits is a slightly greater compromise than the sampling rate is but even then, they both take a noticeable chunk of sonic quality out of the high resolution master. This is not say CD does not sound great. It can. But if the CD sounds great, the high resolution source it came from will sound better.

 

[fas42]

Yes, this is where the theory hits the fan of the practical. I've done experiments of downsampling hi res, orchestral material to Redbook, and then upsampling that back to the hi res. And then subtracting that copy of the copy from the original - and nothing has been lost, except trivial, above 20kHz impulse transients, at very low level. I amplify the leftover, the difference, to just below clipping, and listen to that. Nothing, absolutely nothing to be heard.

I would boldly suggest that possibly the quality of the complete playback chain you're using to monitor the results of your mastering is significantly better when handling hi res vs. Redbook - how do you know they're "equal"?

 

[Blizzard]

Well I work with high res material all the time and am also creating CD masters from that material all the time. Unfortunately this puts me in a position of never having witnessed an audibly transparent conversion of high resolution material (even 44.1 KHz, 24 bit) to the CD standard. I am glad you cannot hear a difference or don't believe there is one, however that has never been the case for me. I dedicated a year of my life trying to make my CD masters sound transparent to the high resolution source and I failed. The 16 bits is a slightly greater compromise than the sampling rate is but even then, they both take a noticeable chunk of sonic quality out of the high resolution master. This is not say CD does not sound great. It can. But if the CD sounds great, the high resolution source it came from will sound better.

Have you ever used Merging Pyramix combined with an Hapi or Horus ADC to make quad DSD copies?

The biggest issue with redbook I've found over the last 2 years of exhaustive research and experimentation is, how it's handled in the DAC. Most DAC's nowadays are SDM oversampling DAC's. So when they are fed redbook, they rely on weak in-chip processing to upsample all the way from 16/44.1 to whatever the max sample rate of the chip is. The processing capabilities of these tiny chips is very minimal, so they can only run mediocre upsampling/ SDM modulation algorithms. This is the main compromise. It's also the reason DAC's like the Vivaldi combined with the upsampler can make redbook sound so good. Because this end of things is done with a proper upsampling engine, using far superior algorithms than what the run of the mill SDM DAC chips are capable of. I've found when a proper upsampling/modulation engine is used, the difference made to the end result is even bigger than going to high rez formats. I've also found one of the main reasons the high rez formats sound better, is the higher the sample rate of the file these chips are fed, the less the chips have to work. When they are fed DSD, they do the littlest amount of work possible. This is the main reason why DSD usually sounds much better on DSD capable DAC's that use SDM based DAC chips, than when you feed them native PCM.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I would boldly suggest that possibly the quality of the complete playback chain you're using to monitor the results of your mastering is significantly better when handling hi res vs. Redbook - how do you know they're "equal"?

I then defer to industry experts who use state of the art gear and still come to the same conclusions that I do. Bob Ludwig has a state of the dCS stack and still does not think redbook is the equal of high res. He only goes so far as to say redbook played back on the dCS stack will blow away high res played on a lesser system. That I already agree with. And that is quite different to saying that redbook and high res are for practical purposes indistinguishable from each other even when played back on state of the art equipment. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I also disagree that there won't be any audible difference even if "tiny" things are missing.

Infact I only know of one professional classical engineer who believes redbook is "perfect" and strangely enough, they do not have a single title on their resume.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Have you ever used Merging Pyramix combined with an Hapi or Horus ADC to make quad DSD copies?

No. Have you ever been to the moon in an Apollo capsule?

 

[Blizzard]

No. Have you ever been to the moon in an Apollo capsule?

No, but I can imagine purchasing the Merging Pyramix/Hapi combo is a bit less costly.

 

[Barry2013]

I bought 5 cd's this week. They just arrived.

-Paul Bley, ECM Not one Not two
-Kenny Barron, Blue Note, Art of the Conversation
-Keith Jarrent/Charlie Haden, ECM, Last Dance
-Charlie Haden/Jim Hall, Impulse
-Allen Toussanit, Nonesuch, The bright Mississippi

So before you say....yeah...so what. These are the first physical cd's I have bought in at least 10 years. Maybe 15 years. I've bought a pile of vinyl, a pile of SACDs, and maybe 50 hi res downloads in the interim. I can't tell you how happy I am with redbook since my upsampler arrived in Nov '15. I bought the titles above from Amazon at like $7-$15 each. Reasonable pricing considering most downloads are $20-$30 and most LP's are $30-$50. (I know I know... price of the upsampler doesn't make this a bargain)

Where I am really going here is the musical enjoyment of redbook cd's with the Vivaldi Upsampler. I heard the Allen Toussaint title on my dealers dCS Rossini the other day. I was just smitten with the music. I can see why we have a few posts on the dCS Rossini now on WBF.

Digital is really improving. It may cost a bit to get the best. But it's swell to listen to! I suspect I'll be buying quite a few redbook cd's over the coming months.

dCS has really expanded my music library...and my enjoyment !!

Fascinating.
Can you say how the? CDs sound compared to your SACDS?

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Fascinating.
Can you say how the? CDs sound compared to your SACDS?

I would be interested to know too, though it is a pity no one will ever know how a redbook layer and an SACD layer compare in a dCS Rossini (which is something I really would have liked to hear).

 

[ozy]

I bought 5 cd's this week. They just arrived.

-Paul Bley, ECM Not one Not two
-Kenny Barron, Blue Note, Art of the Conversation
-Keith Jarrent/Charlie Haden, ECM, Last Dance
-Charlie Haden/Jim Hall, Impulse
-Allen Toussanit, Nonesuch, The bright Mississippi

So before you say....yeah...so what. These are the first physical cd's I have bought in at least 10 years. Maybe 15 years. I've bought a pile of vinyl, a pile of SACDs, and maybe 50 hi res downloads in the interim. I can't tell you how happy I am with redbook since my upsampler arrived in Nov '15. I bought the titles above from Amazon at like $7-$15 each. Reasonable pricing considering most downloads are $20-$30 and most LP's are $30-$50. (I know I know... price of the upsampler doesn't make this a bargain)

Where I am really going here is the musical enjoyment of redbook cd's with the Vivaldi Upsampler. I heard the Allen Toussaint title on my dealers dCS Rossini the other day. I was just smitten with the music. I can see why we have a few posts on the dCS Rossini now on WBF.

Digital is really improving. It may cost a bit to get the best. But it's swell to listen to! I suspect I'll be buying quite a few redbook cd's over the coming months.

dCS has really expanded my music library...and my enjoyment !!

agree wholeheartedly. I believe that CD players will expereince the same renessaince that record players experienced a few years back.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

agree wholeheartedly. I believe that CD players will expereince the same renessaince that record players experienced a few years back.

I hope they do too but I'm not sure I'd put money on it. Maybe I am incorrect, but I suspect the biggest numbers of CDs out there these days would be in classical music collections (I am happy to be corrected on that point). Now I'd think that might secure the future of CD equipment, except when I read this:

http://slippedisc.com/2015/04/classical-record-sales-just-keep-on-falling/

I might not have worried reading this if we did not live in a modern throwaway society, but it does make me think that CD players will disappear from the mass market completely and will only be produced in limited numbers by higher end companies. So, for example, I can't see companies like Creek and Musical Fidelity producing them for much longer. Lucky I bought two Rega CD players in 2014. One to use and one as a spare! I wonder whether top-end company like dCS will even bring out a disk transport after the Rossini? I hope so for the sake of people with massive CD collections.

 

[jfrech]

Fascinating.
Can you say how the? CDs sound compared to your SACDS?

I still think SACD's sound better in general, and I don't have these same 5 titles to compare directly but I do on some other material. For me to have my turnable off and redbook spinning while tapping my toes in complete enjoyment is a shock to those that know me. I'm up sampling these 5 titles to 24/352 (dxd)

 

[jfrech]

I hope they do too but I'm not sure I'd put money on it. Maybe I am incorrect, but I suspect the biggest numbers of CDs out there these days would be in classical music collections (I am happy to be corrected on that point). Now I'd think that might secure the future of CD equipment, except when I read this:

http://slippedisc.com/2015/04/classical-record-sales-just-keep-on-falling/

I might not have worried reading this if we did not live in a modern throwaway society, but it does make me think that CD players will disappear from the mass market completely and will only be produced in limited numbers by higher end companies. So, for example, I can't see companies like Creek and Musical Fidelity producing them for much longer. Lucky I bought two Rega CD players in 2014. One to use and one as a spare! I wonder whether top-end company like dCS will even bring out a disk transport after the Rossini? I hope so for the sake of people with massive CD collections.

The Vivaldi Transport could be the last (and best) SACD capable transport dCS makes. I think the root issue here is when Teac was bought by Gibson, Gibson stopped Esoteric from OEM'ing the transport mechanisms to companies like dCS. I've heard the Rossini player-it sounds VERY nice on redbook physical cd's.

 

[Barry2013]

I still think SACD's sound better in general, and I don't have these same 5 titles to compare directly but I do on some other material. For me to have my turnable off and redbook spinning while tapping my toes in complete enjoyment is a shock to those that know me. I'm up sampling these 5 titles to 24/352 (dxd)

Thanks JF
Very helpful

 

[Barry2013]

I would be interested to know too, though it is a pity no one will ever know how a redbook layer and an SACD layer compare in a dCS Rossini (which is something I really would have liked to hear).

Hi FF
I really like the sound of SACDs which is an issue for me in upgrading my current DCS Puccini/Scarlatti.
Options include a Scarlatti Transport and DAC, or the former and the Rossini DAC.
Another option I will be trying at home in the next couple of weeks or so is the T+A PDP 3000 HV which was very highly reviewed by John Bamford in the March 2015 HFNRR issue.. It's a more affordable option but I don't know if its up to DCS. T+A have made their own SACD mechanism,

 

[jfrech]

Hi FF
I really like the sound of SACDs which is an issue for me in upgrading my current DCS Puccini/Scarlatti.
Options include a Scarlatti Transport and DAC, or the former and the Rossini DAC.
Another option I will be trying at home in the next couple of weeks or so is the T+A PDP 3000 HV which was very highly reviewed by John Bamford in the March 2015 HFNRR issue.. It's a more affordable option but I don't know if its up to DCS. T+A have made their own SACD mechanism,

Hi Barry, What exactly do you have now? Puccini player and Scarlatti dac? I've owned Puccini, then Puccini + unlock, then Scarlatti Trans/Dac/Clock...then Vivaldi, but I upgraded the Vivaldi one piece at a time...so got to hear each piece vs scarlatti as it went in.

If you have the Puccini today using Scarlatti dac...a Scarlatti Trans and maybe Scarlatti Clock is huge step for not crazy money. My dealer has his Scarlatti Trans with a Rossini ...which is also killer combo that allows for SACD playback. Also depend on how many SACD titles you have. Many are available as DSD downloads which sound pretty nice too...

 

[Barry2013]

Hi Barry, What exactly do you have now? Puccini player and Scarlatti dac? I've owned Puccini, then Puccini + unlock, then Scarlatti Trans/Dac/Clock...then Vivaldi, but I upgraded the Vivaldi one piece at a time...so got to hear each piece vs scarlatti as it went in.

If you have the Puccini today using Scarlatti dac...a Scarlatti Trans and maybe Scarlatti Clock is huge step for not crazy money. My dealer has his Scarlatti Trans with a Rossini ...which is also killer combo that allows for SACD playback. Also depend on how many SACD titles you have. Many are available as DSD downloads which sound pretty nice too...

Thanks JF
At the moment it's a Puccini plus Scarlatti clock.
I can't aspire to a Vivaldi at the present time so the choice will be between Scarlatti Transport/DAC or more of a stretch a Rossini DAC.
The T+A is a real unknown quantity but as I have the opportunity I have decided to give it a try in my system.
The rest of my system is detailed on my profile.
My disposition is to stick with DCS but I am intrigued with what I have heard and read about the T+A and I'll report later on how it goes..

 

[Enatai252]

I bought 5 cd's this week. They just arrived.

-Paul Bley, ECM Not one Not two
-Kenny Barron, Blue Note, Art of the Conversation
-Keith Jarrent/Charlie Haden, ECM, Last Dance
-Charlie Haden/Jim Hall, Impulse
-Allen Toussanit, Nonesuch, The bright Mississippi

So before you say....yeah...so what. These are the first physical cd's I have bought in at least 10 years. Maybe 15 years. I've bought a pile of vinyl, a pile of SACDs, and maybe 50 hi res downloads in the interim. I can't tell you how happy I am with redbook since my upsampler arrived in Nov '15. I bought the titles above from Amazon at like $7-$15 each. Reasonable pricing considering most downloads are $20-$30 and most LP's are $30-$50. (I know I know... price of the upsampler doesn't make this a bargain)

Where I am really going here is the musical enjoyment of redbook cd's with the Vivaldi Upsampler. I heard the Allen Toussaint title on my dealers dCS Rossini the other day. I was just smitten with the music. I can see why we have a few posts on the dCS Rossini now on WBF.

Digital is really improving. It may cost a bit to get the best. But it's swell to listen to! I suspect I'll be buying quite a few redbook cd's over the coming months.

dCS has really expanded my music library...and my enjoyment !!

Thanks JF

Tidal had two of the five available for steaming. Listening to the Bright Mississippi right now. Cool when little investments in music media bring true moments of enjoyment. Sometimes we get too caught up in the equipment
Enjoy

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Hi FF
I really like the sound of SACDs which is an issue for me in upgrading my current DCS Puccini/Scarlatti.
Options include a Scarlatti Transport and DAC, or the former and the Rossini DAC.
Another option I will be trying at home in the next couple of weeks or so is the T+A PDP 3000 HV which was very highly reviewed by John Bamford in the March 2015 HFNRR issue.. It's a more affordable option but I don't know if its up to DCS. T+A have made their own SACD mechanism,

Hi Barry,

Yes, obviously the requirement for SACD playback complicates the options. The other thing that would concern me as a hardware buyer in 2016 is the availability of spare transports (including lasers). It is one thing to build the new players and another thing to able to service them a decade or two down the road. I think a 50-something year old buyer investing in a dCS transport (or the 3000 HV you mention) have a right to expect a lifetime of service from it. I honestly do not think 40 plus years is asking too much from kit of this quality.

So I would be inclined (if it were me) to contact the manufacturers of these things and ask them what contingencies they have in place to service these players / transports in the future. As an example, at the cheaper end of the market (Rega Isis), Rega actually keep a spare transport at the factory, specifically ear-marked for individual players by serial number. It is hard to imagine a company like dCS not thinking into the future like this but personally I would still be concerned enough to want ask the questions.

I am "lucky" in that only owing a modest Rega, I can buy genuine OEM transports for a very modest price without even having to involve Rega (I actually had to replace one only recently). It is a very different story, however, with the exceptionally high quality and expensive transports used in top-end players like dCS, Esoteric, etc.