Could a scam artist make a quick buck in audio

[microstrip]

(...) I guess it all harks back to the fundamental continuum in audio today. I'm pretty sure he wasn't the first person to coin the phrase, but Floyd-Toole's description of audio as, "science in the service of art" fits well. Unfortunately, audio has become so polarized of late that one group of people see that quote as, "SCIENCE mf btf fnuedft pf fpf", while the other group read it as, "ffubpth mf btf fnuedft pf ART". One extreme is too arid to survive in the wild, the other too impractical. The pragmatic, real-world response is somewhere between those two polar opposites, and where that 'somewhere' is depends from person to person and from country to country. It's a fluid thing too, changing with each year.

Only by ignorance partisans of both extremes can quote Toole. He is very careful in his paper describing what is needed in order to consider that audio is a science:

Determining how close we are to perfection is ultimately determined subjectively, in carefully-controlled listening tests. However, accurate and comprehensive measurements, interpreted using the ever-expanding ‘rules’ of psychoacoustics, are remarkably accurate predictors of what is and what is not audible and, ultimately, of subjective preferences. This allows us to design better sounding and more cost effective products.

The main question are the ‘rules’ of psychoacoustics. Toole establishes a set based on his studies and views, but they are not universal. They are a valid perspective of a prestigious school of thought. One should consider that Toole is a believer that differences between properly designed electronics are minimal, and all his results depend on the acceptance of this rule. If listening tests would depend on electronics, source or tweaks, the listening tests he refers to would become impossible. When Toole refers to a listening test he refers to a loudspeaker in a room listening test. Extrapolating his views to tweaks and electronics has no meaning at all. All IMHO.

 

[edorr]

Audiophiles just love trying tweaks, whether it's cable elevators, Isolation devices, cable, power cords, power outlets, etc, etc. I think that someone that had some knowledge about audio and is a good marketer could make a quick buck in audio. Of course you would have to be deceitful and a crook. I worked for a guy in the car business and he sold millions of dollars worth of cars. The only problem is a lot of those cars were never delivered. At the end he walked away with just a bankruptcy but still had a 2 million dollar house and some luxury cars.

I think this thread confuses the selling of snakeoil with outright fraud/scamming. The two are entirely unrelated. The former is a perfectly legal activity, while the latter is a felony crime. If someone can convince audiophiles their cable elevaters work miracles and are worth $500 bucks a piece - good for him. To equate this with fraudulently taking someone's money and none delivery of goods and services is ridiculous.

 

[FrantzM]

I think this thread confuses the selling of snakeoil with outright fraud/scamming. The two are entirely unrelated. The former is a perfectly legal activity, while the latter is a felony crime. If someone can convince audiophiles their cable elevaters work miracles and are worth $500 bucks a piece - good for him. To equate this with fraudulently taking someone's money and none delivery of goods and services is ridiculous.

+1

Also trying the angle that the scammers look for the most desirable markets is a dubious line of argumentation. There exist scams in almost anything. Massive schemes such Madoff' are the exception rather than the rule. Also the sincerity of the person is a subjective call. Madoff did convince his victims of his "sincerity" .. Not an accusation of those designers with extreme and improbable tweaks (for the lack of a better word): We can only grant them the benefits of the doubt .. I find it however difficult or even imprudent to vouch for their sincerity or lack thereof.

 

[opus111]

I think this thread confuses the selling of snakeoil with outright fraud/scamming. The two are entirely unrelated.

I'm curious to learn of evidence that shows they're entirely unrelated. To me they all look to be on a continuum, its just a matter of degree.

The former is a perfectly legal activity, while the latter is a felony crime.

When I was living in UK, I recall something called the 'Trade descriptions act'. As far as I recall, it was illegal to make misleading claims in marketing/advertising though of course what was 'misleading' was always open to interpretation.

If someone can convince audiophiles their cable elevaters work miracles and are worth $500 bucks a piece - good for him. To equate this with fraudulently taking someone's money and none delivery of goods and services is ridiculous.

Well of course they're not equal - but they are connected. So I take it you don't mind what misrepresentation is involved in the convincing of gullible audiophiles and more power to sellers misrepresenting the benefits of their products?

 

[Alan Sircom]

+1

Also trying the angle that the scammers look for the most desirable markets is a dubious line of argumentation. There exist scams in almost anything. Massive schemes such Madoff' are the exception rather than the rule. Also the sincerity of the person is a subjective call. Madoff did convince his victims of his "sincerity" .. Not an accusation of those designers with extreme and improbable tweaks (for the lack of a better word): We can only grant them the benefits of the doubt .. I find it however difficult or even imprudent to vouch for their sincerity or lack thereof.

I haven't met all the so-far-left-field-they-are-on-the-right tweak-meisters, but many of those I've met are deeply sincere in their beliefs about whatever it is they dreamt up. Sometimes literally dreamt up - I've had more than one person tell me with an entirely straight face that their product line is the result of a particularly lucid dream. Which, frankly, troubles me.

There's a parallel with alternative medicine here. A friend's wife is training to be a homeopath. She trusts pills of sugar with a subtle influence of... sugar, as a cure for all manner of illness, because her kids grew out of childhood diseases when she was pumping them full of expensive sugar. She's not doing this to make money (she doesn't need to, her husband funds hedges, or something), but because she's a true believer. I think the same applies to many left-field designers in audio.

 

[opus111]

Sometimes literally dreamt up - I've had more than one person tell me with an entirely straight face that their product line is the result of a particularly lucid dream. Which, frankly, troubles me.

Curious to learn why that would trouble you Alan. I remember being told (I think it was in a chemistry class at school) the way that Kekule discovered the structure of benzene :

Kekule dozed in his chair by the fire, trying to solve the riddle. As he nodded, he dreamt of the twining serpents on that old ring, whirling in the flames. Suddenly, in the dream, the serpents caught each other's tail and formed a circle. Kekule saw the answer. The carbon atoms formed an hexagonal ring with alternating single and double bonds. Each one held its own hydrogen atom -- "like charms on a bracelet," says von Baeyer. It was a structure utterly alien to anything else in chemistry.

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi265.htm

 

[Robh3606]

Scam? You decide my absolute favorite tweak!

http://machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm

Rob

 

[treitz3]

I think we all know the answer to that one.

Tom

 

[Orb]

+1

Also trying the angle that the scammers look for the most desirable markets is a dubious line of argumentation. There exist scams in almost anything. Massive schemes such Madoff' are the exception rather than the rule. Also the sincerity of the person is a subjective call. Madoff did convince his victims of his "sincerity" .. Not an accusation of those designers with extreme and improbable tweaks (for the lack of a better word): We can only grant them the benefits of the doubt .. I find it however difficult or even imprudent to vouch for their sincerity or lack thereof.

So I guess all those adverts for washing up liquids, various non-bleach disinfectants, various soaps, beauty products, cavity wall insulation for housing in general, the list is massive....
Some products will past muster but not all products in the above broad examples, cavity wall insulation being one that breaks the logic and purpose of the 2-wall barrier and has both positive and importantly potentially negative effects.
All of these fall into the criteria of being legal and way beyond the scale of audio snake oil
Cheers
Orb

 

[microstrip]

Orb,

No need to look in the grocery shop. Just look for the claims of most acoustic treatments, mainly in the bass frequencies. And most of them are not directed to audiophiles ...

 

[andromedaaudio]

After reading about the fuses hysteria , i certainly do think that!!

 

[FrantzM]

After reading about the fuses hysteria , i certainly do think that!!

You needed that to convince you?

I have come to take any mention of: "soundstage becoming wider" or "deeper" and "more clarity" or "more texture" as flags for dubious increase in performance. All that IMHO, YMMV, etc

 

[andromedaaudio]

I suspected it already before that
I like technical straightfoward/ logical enginering . i am not religious either

I did shaftlaser alignment today as a contractor/free lancer , if i do it wrong the company could have up to 500 K $$ downtime , you think i could get away at work with "technical unverified hocus pocus " like that , no way, i wouldnt even get a foot between the door .