Constant Power

[Phelonious Ponk]

What are we comparing? I thought I was just getting a reading to see what my perceived "very loud" measures in decibels. You guys hitting 120+ peaks. What kinds of amps are you using?

Tim

 

[theguesswho]

Not big amps, but high efficiency speakers.

Though I dont get my carpets to levitate like Basspigs carpet as shown on youtube!

Fast setting with C weighting spl meter.

Wendell

 

[theguesswho]

Felonious Punk asked, What are we comparing? I guess we are comparing how loud we can crank it up. Atmasphere said he listens to Black sabbath at 115db. I don't have a copy of that lp so i put on my favorite lp and cranked it up. I did not hear any distortion or added brightness. So I guess just whatever you want to listen to loud.

Wendell

 

[Atmasphere]

Atmasphere said, "I used to have a meter until it got stolen." And this classic, "While I don't have a meter for now, at least I have used one."

I too used to have a spl meter till my dog ate it. Now I cant tell how loud my woofer is!

Oh yeah! And the dog ate my homework. (Oh, Sister Mary Margaret forgive me for that one)

Wendell

The meter was stolen at the end of a CES a few years ago, along with two LP boxes of some pretty hard to find stuff.

I have a sound pressure meter app on my Iphone but it does not show peaks or anything more than 110db.

The trick here is that they question- does it *sound* loud at these sound pressures (+95db)? It shouldn't.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Felonious Punk asked, What are we comparing? I guess we are comparing how loud we can crank it up. Atmasphere said he listens to Black sabbath at 115db. I don't have a copy of that lp so i put on my favorite lp and cranked it up. I did not hear any distortion or added brightness. So I guess just whatever you want to listen to loud.

Wendell

Not sure aI want to listen to anything at 115 db, whether it "sounds" loud or not. I get more than enough of those kinds of db levels playing in the band. But thanks for the answer.

Tim

 

[theguesswho]

Atmasphere said, "I have a sound pressure meter app on my Iphone but it does not show peaks or anything more than 110db.
The trick here is that they question- does it *sound* loud at these sound pressures (+95db)? It shouldn't."

My Iphone meter goes to 130db.
Does it sound loud at 95db+? Sure it does, because it is loud! I don't get it, Ralph, when does your system start to sound loud? At some point it has to sound loud, because it is loud.
When you say you listen to black Sabbath at 115db is that at the same volume setting on your preamp as say Eva Cassidy? Or do you crank up the volume control to listen to it for a short period of time?

Wendell

 

[Roger Dressler]

What are we comparing? I thought I was just getting a reading to see what my perceived "very loud" measures in decibels.

Yes, to me what would be interesting would be for each person to set the given musical track to 2 volume settings: The normal everyday listening level, and the "sometimes I play it louder when no one's home" level. Take the readings for each (A-wtd slow would be my preference for this purpose).

 

[Atmasphere]

Atmasphere said, "I have a sound pressure meter app on my Iphone but it does not show peaks or anything more than 110db.
The trick here is that they question- does it *sound* loud at these sound pressures (+95db)? It shouldn't."

My Iphone meter goes to 130db.
Does it sound loud at 95db+? Sure it does, because it is loud! I don't get it, Ralph, when does your system start to sound loud? At some point it has to sound loud, because it is loud.
When you say you listen to black Sabbath at 115db is that at the same volume setting on your preamp as say Eva Cassidy? Or do you crank up the volume control to listen to it for a short period of time?

Wendell

What app do you have?

I like to use the example of a full orchestra. It can play at peaks of 120db front row center. But it does not sound crazy loud. OTOH, many systems playing 25 db less *do* sound loud.

 

[theguesswho]

I am using the Studio Six spl
Meter for an iPhone 4. It actually goes to 140db.
Ralph would you be so
Kind to
Answer my questions.
Thanks,
Wendell

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The one I got is called db Meter Pro, and it appears to only go to 110 db as well, but there are a lot of utilities, including calibration. Perhaps there's a way to reset the peak.

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

From what I understand the iphone limits at 105db. That is why I've not really tried to use it as a SPL meter.

Wendell, I'm not sure which are rhetorical and which are real. I apologize- could your restate them here?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

From what I understand the iphone limits at 105db. That is why I've not really tried to use it as a SPL meter.

Wendell, I'm not sure which are rhetorical and which are real. I apologize- could your restate them here?

I don't know where the iPhone's cutoff is, but the software meter I downloaded appears to go to 110db. I tried it out last night and find that peaks in the mid 90s are plenty loud enough for me. I don't know if that means my negative feedback (or my small room or small speakers) is limiting my listening pleasure, or if it just means that 110db peaks are louder than I like to listen to music. But I can listen as loud as I care to listen without fatigue. I can't see how anything else really matters.

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

^^ My app does that too.

In a smaller room, with that much power and peaks around 95db is as loud as you want to play? FWIW I have found that to be the practical limit beyond which most audiophile will not venture if odd ordered content is a problem. I think I mentioned that a few pages earlier on this thread.

What is happening is the odd ordered content is being translated by your ear/brain system to 'as loud as I care to listen'. Its likely that your equipment is only making a few watts unless your speakers are very inefficient. FWIW with most push pull amps (tube or solid state), there is a power level below which distortion actually increases rather than decreases. If your system is too overpowered, the amps may never ascend above that level- so sometimes it is possible to get better sound (re.: smoother, more detailed) with a slightly lower-powered amplifier.

What happens when you remove the odd ordered harmonic content is that thoughts about volume vanish, except in the context of how it relates to the musical performance itself. IOW I'm sure you've noticed that its possible to play an acoustic guitar too soft or too loud- there is a correct volume that has it sounding as real as it can with any system.

 

[NorthStar]

When I listen "moderately loud" the peaks (RS meter Cwtd fast) are 80 dB. So to me, 95 dB would in fact be really loud.

Just to say that "really loud" is uncalibrated.:b

Wendell, are you using slow or fast? I assume C wtg. But those of us with "ample" bass may be getting a rather different reading than others without such good bass capability that does not correlate well with loudness impression. When it comes to hearing the distortion products we're discussing in this thread, I would submit A-wtg would be more relevant.

Also, what's the crest factor of your favorite album? The impression of loudness may vary significantly among recordings with "the same" peak SPL readings.

If we really want to compare loudness of our various systems, it would be best for us to all use the same recording and the same metering. For the song, it does not have to be an esoteric recording. Just something we might all have on hand and set its loudness to match our nominal listening level. For metering, I'd suggest A-wtg, slow, to remove the bass uncertainty and make reading the level more consistent. Then we'd have a shot at apples-to-apples comparisons (notwithstanding that none of these Radio Shack or iPhone SPL meters are what could be called calibrated).

I would find that information very interesting. Anyone want to suggest a recording?

Yes, to me what would be interesting would be for each person to set the given musical track to 2 volume settings: The normal everyday listening level, and the "sometimes I play it louder when no one's home" level. Take the readings for each (A-wtd slow would be my preference for this purpose).

That is an interesting pursuit (audio 'power' exploration) Roger. ...I'm all in, but which music recording, and from which medium?
Plus, which SPL meter exactly? ...Plus, with or without sub(s)?

- Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon ...everyone here has that recording, but which version? ...There must be hundreds of different masterings and all.
And which cut (tune, song) exactly from that album (CD, LP, SACD, DVD-Audio, ...)?

- I have the Radio Shack SPL meter myself (analog version).
A-weighting is the way to go. ...For this type of 'constant power' test.

- a) Average listening level (every day routine). ...Constant average SPL. ...With peaks.
- b) Maximum volume level (decibels) that we can tolerate for extended period of time (constant max SPL). ...With peaks.

 

[LL21]

^^ My app does that too.

In a smaller room, with that much power and peaks around 95db is as loud as you want to play? FWIW I have found that to be the practical limit beyond which most audiophile will not venture if odd ordered content is a problem. I think I mentioned that a few pages earlier on this thread.

What is happening is the odd ordered content is being translated by your ear/brain system to 'as loud as I care to listen'. Its likely that your equipment is only making a few watts unless your speakers are very inefficient. FWIW with most push pull amps (tube or solid state), there is a power level below which distortion actually increases rather than decreases. If your system is too overpowered, the amps may never ascend above that level- so sometimes it is possible to get better sound (re.: smoother, more detailed) with a slightly lower-powered amplifier.

What happens when you remove the odd ordered harmonic content is that thoughts about volume vanish, except in the context of how it relates to the musical performance itself. IOW I'm sure you've noticed that its possible to play an acoustic guitar too soft or too loud- there is a correct volume that has it sounding as real as it can with any system.

very very interesting. I will say, after a few major changes (from Strads to X1s and amplification to CJ and Gryphon's latest), we can go much louder than before (which was great for parties that can travel thru 3 floors of concrete)...but with no one in the room complaining, but rather just sitting there in the living room. Its lack of distortion not volume, even though that is also the most dangerous...hence why we don't do it anymore. In fact, we play softer now because lack of distortion means incredible clarity at very very LOW levels. thanks for the technical explanation.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well, like I said, it could be negative feedback. It could also be that it is simply loud enough for me. I can tell you that in my small room it is loud enough to render conversation impossible, and not just at peaks. And remember, this is a nearfield system - active monitors with 6.5" mid bass drivers and no subs. So I'm hitting peaks in the mid 90s with no real bass. I suppose it is interesting, theoretically, that there may be a way to avoid a specific distortion at volumes beyond what is healthy for any sustained period of time, but it doesn't matter much. Permissible exposure time for 115 db is < 15 seconds. For an average of 91db, it's 2 hours. Prolonged exposure in the mid 80s is enough to do damage. If my negative feedback is telling me that peaks in the mid 90s are "loud enough," I suspect it is probably doing me a favor. YMMV.

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

^^ I've always looked to the music itself for that, but sheesh, these days you go to shows and its way too loud- hearing loss is a whole 'nuther animal!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

^^ I've always looked to the music itself for that, but sheesh, these days you go to shows and its way too loud- hearing loss is a whole 'nuther animal!

You've looked to the music to tell you when it's too loud? That's dangerous.

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

With and orchestra that is generally no worries. Rock bands and many places where the music is amplified is a different deal.

 

[caesar]

Well, like I said, it could be negative feedback. It could also be that it is simply loud enough for me. I can tell you that in my small room it is loud enough to render conversation impossible, and not just at peaks. And remember, this is a nearfield system - active monitors with 6.5" mid bass drivers and no subs. So I'm hitting peaks in the mid 90s with no real bass. I suppose it is interesting, theoretically, that there may be a way to avoid a specific distortion at volumes beyond what is healthy for any sustained period of time, but it doesn't matter much. Permissible exposure time for 115 db is < 15 seconds. For an average of 91db, it's 2 hours. Prolonged exposure in the mid 80s is enough to do damage. If my negative feedback is telling me that peaks in the mid 90s are "loud enough," I suspect it is probably doing me a favor. YMMV.

Tim

Phelonious, are you sure you are not falling for expectation bias here?