Comparing components

[Roysen]

This is a subject worth discussing in more detail I think. How should we compare components to evaluate them for possible purchase or even to just expand our reference base.

I have been given quite a bit of pepper for adding lists of possible components as suggestions when other people ask for recomendations on specific types of components. The common critical voice is that how can you have heard all of those components in your own system. My answer is usually that I of course have not but usually I have heard them in a familiar system.

However if we think about this a bit further, are we sure the most fair evaluation would be in a familiar system or even in your own system?

It is quite obvious why most will think listening in your home system is the best way. You will be in a position to hear exactly what the new component is bringing and what it is releaving you of compared to your own component.

However that might not be the ideal setting to test the new component in. When we evaluate a new component I certainly think it is only fair that the new component is tested in an environment with components suited to show its best performance. That certainly might not be in the system at home.

If you on the other hand audition the new component in a system set up by the dealer/distributor the rest of that system might be totally unfamiliar and you might not have a clue what exactly is the contribution of the component you want to evaluate.

Some might say that it is after all in your home system the new component might be used. You should do the evaluation there. However the fact is that if you knew of any possible weakneses in the home system making the new component not perform at optimum, you might discard the new component for the wrong reasons and the chance to make more changes to your system to improve on those shortcomings might never be detected.

What do you think?

 

[DEV]

Below is not a direct answer but another thought.

It's really all subjective and debatable in the end, really what are you "we" referencing too when comparing besides listening to live performances which all varies in sound anyways. Just going to a performance my listening experience can vary from how I feel, my seating position along with performers them selves, so many variables. How many times I have heard piano's being played and out of tune, drives me crazy never mind all of the different manufactures and the tonality differences they provide.

Think about this for a moment;

anyone experiencing the use of isolation products and the sonic differences they have provided, for example what one reads or has first hand experienced adding StillPoints, power grounding, conditioning etc. Any product that was installed prior to any improvement you actually did you never really heard their full potential so my out look is it's all flawed, never ending chasing of ones tail. There will always be differences no matter what you do but personally I want to live with the product in my own home, in my own system when comparing.

I personally wonder what this or that would have sounded like NOW in comparison after the fact - my current situation; I sold my MBL's recently, out of the 9 years of listening enjoyment and learning - two years ago I decided to install Ultra 5's underneath. Out of all the isolation devises I had placed underneath preferred these but all of that gear I had demoed prior I now WONDER what would my opinion be, they would really all need to be re-evaluated.

I believe you need to live with product for sometime in your own system, product takes along time to break-in too.

My thoughts

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Dev,

That's interesting (you selling your MBLs). What did you replace them with? This makes two very recent MBL 101E replacements.

 

[TBG]

DEV, I really wonder whether much in transferable between one person's system and anyone else's. On trying the Stillpoints Ultra SSs, I thought they had a revolutionary invention. Then I hear the Ultra Fives; and then the Star Sound Tech Apprentices. If one person is listening to the first two, I suspect that they are listening to pretty close to the same sound and might agree on the benefits. If they have the Star Sound Apprentices, however, they might not agree. There are many other circumstances that divide our judgments.

But we have few dealers anymore and even they are unlikely to have all of the component manufacturers' systems to allow comparative listening sessions. So where are we? Shall we just toss a coin in buying components? I have a circle of friends whose opinions and experiences greatly influence what I make an effort to hear at shows and to make my own judgment.

When living in a small southern town in the 1960s, I had three local dealers. Furthermore, I was frequently in Chicago and visited dealers there. Moreover there were only a handful of electronic component and speaker manufacturers, and only three relevant magazines to held you know of things with which to reproduce your music.

 

[Robh3606]

If you are not doing side by side realtime comparisons how do you know what's what?? I expect differences with electronics to be subtle at best so going by memory seems like a complete shot in the dark. Speakers I can see becasue they can be voiced quite differently but amps or preamps that's tuff.

Rob

 

[TBG]

Robh3606, Fundamentally I guess I don't find differences in electronic components to be subtle. The goal I seek is realism. I have three different amps and three preamps. The BMC M2s and the Koda K 10 are clearly the most real sounding. I do have trouble, now days hearing comparisons at dealers, shows, or friends home. Realism as a standard is helped with you have heard the musician or vocalist live, especially if unamplified. At shows generally speaking, I can walk into a room and within a half minute decide if I want to stay.

 

[DEV]

Dev,

That's interesting (you selling your MBLs). What did you replace them with? This makes two very recent MBL 101E replacements.

PM sent

 

[PeterA]

Roysen, I think you have started a very interesting thread. I think there are really two questions and a distinction to be made in your post. They are: Do I like one more than the other? And, Is one better than the other? Does one want to know which component is best in the context of his own system or does he want to know which is better in a more absolute sense? If it is the former, the only way to really know is to audition a few components over a period of time in one's own system. If it is the latter, then a more general consensus is required which should involve the components in question being heard in a variety of settings by a variety of listeners. And then, with some luck, a preference for one over the others may be reached.

I was just at a friend's house yesterday to compare two preamps. He was trying to decide if he should upgrade from one to the other. Two of his friends were there to offer their observations. I preferred one slightly to the other, but am really not sure which would sound better in my own system, let alone which was better in a more absolute sense.

I agree that it is mostly subjective. I say mostly because it's not clear, for instance, that everyone will agree that higher resolution, increased transparency, and a neutral tonal balance are more important than some other sonic properties.

At the very least, IMO, one should try to directly compare two components in a familiar system listening to a variety of familiar music using multiple formats over an extended period of time.

 

[Roysen]

Dev,

I certainly agree with you. However my post was not meant to be regarded as an insight to how to find an absolute truth. The question I raise is equally relevant when you want to find your own subjective personal answers to what you preer best yourself.

 

[LL21]

Personally, my approach is a bit like chess or checkers...i am generally moving my system in one direction and i have a pretty good idea of how to get there...but sometimes, to do it...I have to move a bit to one side or the other...at least in terms of auditioning if not buying...its not a perfectly straight line.

For me, i tend to select components as follows:

1. I know what i want to hear by listening to loads of SOTA systems and figuring out thru 'playing' while i am auditioning...what kind of sound i like. By 'playing' around with the equipment, i also learn some basic 'effects' of different equipment by switching a piece or two.

2. From years of doing this over and over (and over) again, i have built up a series of 'instincts' about brands...a 'vocabulary' that helps me then audition equipment a bit more easily if the rest of the system is comprised of components with which i have 'played' in the past and are part of my basic 'vocabulary'.

3. I then do a ton of reading and asking questions when i get serious about a piece of equipment: dealers, owners, manufacturers, distributors, and others whose 'ears' i trust about why they did/did not buy the component i am interested in. I often go to owners and dealers who sell the product plus competing products which i know so i can get comparisons from people.

4. If 3 shows good support for something i am interested in...i will audition it using whatever the dealer has in stock that is amongst the stuff i have played with.

5. If i get that intuitive sense of 'magic'...i will usually swap it out with another competing product with which i have played...and see if the magic disappears. If it does disappear, i am onto something with the component i swapped out.

6. Finally, i take it home...and here is where it gets tricky. I expect magic...and if i dont get it...its probably going back. But not necessarily...the reason is that i am ALSO aware that my own system is not a constant...it too will change, and i am very very conscious of this because i HATE buying and flipping...my systems last on average 7-9 years so if i am upgrading, i want something that will go that long and possibly be something that is not perfectly synergistic with what i have today...on the basis i again know roughly where i am going, and i suspect further upgrades will then be more 'synergistic' with this component.

So far so good...right or wrong...i love my CJ-Gryphon-Transparent-Wilson as a combination...and i love my Zanden. I don't see any of them changing anytime soon...but i again know that this combination of electronics is very well regarded when it comes to Rockport which is voiced with Gryphon, Transparent (and years ago with CJ as well)...so i know that sliding an Arrakis in place of my beloved Wilsons someday (and leaving everything else exactly as is) should not be controversial.