Class A power amps and electricity crisis..

[Manos_Bits]

I am deeply skepticist and wondering about anyone of us owns class 'A' power amps.. Independently of the income or the financial level it has become prohibitive to use such amplifiers.. I believe class 'D' amplification will further rise..

 

[Adco]

I use a custom pair of 200 watt class A amplifiers made specifically bespoke for me from Clayton Audio. For the first time in my audio journey of many decades I actually turn them off if I know I won’t have time with them in the near future. All my other equipment is on 24/7
It’s frustrating not just because of cost to run but warm up time. That said, no way am I changing these amps out any time soon.

Compared to a hobby that requires fuel ( boats,cars, motor bikes) electricity is still affordable for most

 

[Hear Here]

I am deeply skepticist and wondering about anyone of us owns class 'A' power amps.. Independently of the income or the financial level it has become prohibitive to use such amplifiers.. I believe class 'D' amplification will further rise..

Yes, I agree, but what about tube amps? They are just as power hungry.

In view of these inexcusable inefficient and power-wasting designs, perhaps the sale of new ones should simply stop. There's no reason for either to exist as much more efficient alternatives are available that sound just as good.

In the EU, legislation was introduced in 2017 that limited the power required to operate a domestic vacuum cleaner to 900 watts (a reduction from the 1600 watts post-2014) and there was a maximum noise level stipulated too. What did this do for home cleaning? Nothing, as makers re-designed their units to work more efficiently, so a new 900 watt cleaner worked as well as a 1600 watt older one, or even a 2200 one from pre-2014. Performance has not been compromised.

The same could / should happen in the audio industry. We listen to far more hours of music than we spend pushing vacuum cleaners around our homes, so a potentially much bigger environmental saving. And anyone leaving power-hungry Class A or valve kit on 24/7 should asked themselves some serious questions, even if they are wealthy enough that their electricity bill is of no consequence! That'll raise a few hackles on this forum!

 

[Adco]

It sure will….
I am not sure if that last sentence was tongue in cheek but frankly it’s a tad off side. People can dispose of their hard earned money in whatever way they feel appropriate. Whether it’s a good choice is another story.

Let me ask you something…. Do you think there is more vacuums or more class A amplifiers in the world. So silly.

all that said, various forms of class D and the like are certainly getting better if not already very good and that’s likely a positive move.

I personally have not found an efficient amp I liked and could afford (this is certainly not to say they don’t exist) . Until then I will stick with my class A stuff.
While I’m acutely aware of the name of this forum I simply can’t afford some of the equipment spoken of in these threads. Until the pricing of the efficient stuff is reduced or the sonics of cheaper stuff exceed my class A things will remain the same for me.

 

[facten]

I have tube integrated amps , listen on average 4 hours a day. I have no inclination to move towards class D

 

[GSOphile]

Hearing that Luxman has dropped development of Class A amps and integrateds for energy conservation reasons. However, maybe there is hope for Class A fans - see the new Westminster Rei.

 

[Alrainbow]

Not all class A amps are on always many have standby modes my krell does this also my ml no 33 amps
but how long a given amp takes to sound well is another story
the krell takes a few hours and runs cooler if not playing music. This is supposed to be a sliding bias amp
the ml no 33 takes many hours to sound well like 10 or so min
min guessing it’s due to bias becoming thermally stable
the ml are big class and and heat my room I need AC in winter
I would think if the maker had a faster rise in temp to get them stable faster we would not need to keep on for hours

 

[the sound of Tao]

I am deeply skepticist and wondering about anyone of us owns class 'A' power amps.. Independently of the income or the financial level it has become prohibitive to use such amplifiers.. I believe class 'D' amplification will further rise..

I to am skeptical. Each to their own but for me class D represents the death knocks of music appreciation…class d amps are useful if you are more keen on disparate and disconnected sound effects and artificial inky black silences and overt thumping one note bass, at that they are quite fabulous. Right up there with using dsp for active crossover equalisation.

 

[Manos_Bits]

thanks to all for replying.. that was a philosophical and skeptical opinion, not a promotion for Class D amplifiers.. here in EU the price of 1 KW/h has reach 1euro and rising day by day.. of course, anyone of us can arrange his money as he likes.. but it will be very difficult especially for friends owing KRELLS or GRYPHONS or other class A monsters demanding >500W in idle..

* I am using a made by me DIY class D power amp for everyday cool hours listening.. but for serious listening I use my 211 PSET'S !!

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think an audiophile who mostly sits at home listening to his class A amplifier is a relatively minuscule burden on the environment .

May be the future solution is made up of virtual systems , meaning not owning one but just talk about it lol

 

[the sound of Tao]

I think class d listening is like drinking instant coffee… I don’t. Each to their own but I’d rather not listen to class d amps or drink instant coffee. That said I don’t believe we are all chasing the same thing and I am fine with the fact that I’m out of step and more musicphile (lover of music) than audiophile (lover of sound)… the choice of any gear for sonic or cost efficient preferences is just less important to me.

But I never struggle with the realisation that we are all here to be true to our own visions of what this hobby is all about. I’m a music first listener and access to the best music and connection to musical performance is my primary goal. Sonics are important but holistic music appreciation is an overriding factor for me. I might be broken but class d has always resulted in a disconnect for me. I can only guess at why.

 

[adyc]

thanks to all for replying.. that was a philosophical and skeptical opinion, not a promotion for Class D amplifiers.. here in EU the price of 1 KW/h has reach 1euro and rising day by day.. of course, anyone of us can arrange his money as he likes.. but it will be very difficult especially for friends owing KRELLS or GRYPHONS or other class A monsters demanding >500W in idle..

* I am using a made by me DIY class D power amp for everyday cool hours listening.. but for serious listening I use my 211 PSET'S !!

1 kWh for 1 EUR. That is crazy!!

 

[andromedaaudio]

If you live in California or Dubai your entitled to still use class A .( solar panels )
For Other countries i foresee a hometrainer and a Dynamo to be able to still use class A amps , if not its class D for you lol

 

[Alrainbow]

My ml no 33 use 15 amps on idle at 125 volts
at 1 per kWh it’s 45 per day of left on wow.
going solar is not long term I feel and if we add the cost of complete install over 10 years
to completly run a typical home 24/7 it’s very impractical I think
for a reference I’m paying 11 cents per kWh so 1/10 of above wow

 

[rando]

May be the future solution is made up of virtual systems , meaning not owning one but just talk about it lol

Actually attending musical performances like a neanderthal.

Or worse yet, playing in them.

 

[marty]

Good discussion. The question of understanding when one’s system comes up to speed so it sounds best involves many things, not only the time it takes to optimize the performance of a Class A amplifier. This is a topic I have struggled with for a long time. A number of observations that still leave me with questions about what accounts for this “system optimization” process. It seems that every time I change a piece of gear and wonder if that will effect time to optimization, the results are always the same. It always takes 90 minutes before my system “sings”.

Some issues that I have considered responsible to this include (but may not be limited to):

• Does the cartridge suspension take a while to become maximally supple and responsive??
• Do tubes take time to optimize?
• Do electronics take time to warm up event though they are powered on all the time?
• Related to #3, Do power supply capacitors in particular need time to optimize when playing at typical levels?
• Do my Gryphon Class A amps take time to warm up due to its Class A design?

The answer to all of these is obviously yes. But still, there is a nagging feeling that I’m missing something important. What I suggest is that the 800 lb gorilla in the room is that the speaker itself needs significant time to warm up! It should not be a surprise to think that a speaker's performance may be very different when “cold” than when it has been playing a while at typical listening volume. The reason for this is that the crossover components are designed with precise values (often +/- 1%) and that these values are very much effected by operating temperature. The same is true of voice coils. These are huge heat generators in a speaker. So perhaps it should be no surprise that no matter what components I may have changed in the past that I thought would alter my time to system optimization, nothing ever seemed to matter. It always takes 90 minutes to sound its best. I genuinely think that the factor I have always overlooked is speaker optimization due to the time it takes to reach thermal stability of the drivers and crossovers. Class A amps take time to optimize and when they do, they are indeed significant heat generators. But I don’t think they are the main reason our systems take considerable time to sound their best.

 

[Kingrex]

thanks to all for replying.. that was a philosophical and skeptical opinion, not a promotion for Class D amplifiers.. here in EU the price of 1 KW/h has reach 1euro and rising day by day.. of course, anyone of us can arrange his money as he likes.. but it will be very difficult especially for friends owing KRELLS or GRYPHONS or other class A monsters demanding >500W in idle..

* I am using a made by me DIY class D power amp for everyday cool hours listening.. but for serious listening I use my 211 PSET'S !!

If electricity is so expensive, why would you purchase an electric car. They should be outlawed until more efficient.

That was a tongue and cheek comment.

 

[Kingrex]

Good discussion. The question of understanding when one’s system comes up to speed so it sounds best involves many things, not only the time it takes to optimize the performance of a Class A amplifier. This is a topic I have struggled with for a long time. A number of observations that still leave me with questions about what accounts for this “system optimization” process. It seems that every time I change a piece of gear and wonder if that will effect time to optimization, the results are always the same. It always takes 90 minutes before my system “sings”.

Some issues that I have considered responsible to this include (but may not be limited to):

• Does the cartridge suspension take a while to become maximally supple and responsive??
• Do tubes take time to optimize?
• Do electronics take time to warm up event though they are powered on all the time?
• Related to #3, Do power supply capacitors in particular need time to optimize when playing at typical levels?
• Do my Gryphon Class A amps take time to warm up due to its Class A design?

The answer to all of these is obviously yes. But still, there is a nagging feeling that I’m missing something important. What I suggest is that the 800 lb gorilla in the room is that the speaker itself needs significant time to warm up! It should not be a surprise to think that a speakers performance may be very different when “cold” than when it has been playing a while a typical listening volume. The reason for this is that the crossover components are designed with precise values (often +/- 1%) and that these values are very much effected by operating temperature. The same is true of voice coils. These are huge heat generators in a speaker. So perhaps it should be no surprise that no matter what components I may have changed in the past that I thought would alter my time to system optimization, nothing ever seemed to matter. It always takes 90 minutes to sound its best. I genuinely think that the factor I have always overlooked is speaker optimization due to the time it takes to reach thermal stability of the drivers and crossovers. Class A amps take time to optimize and when they do, they are indeed significant heat generators. But I don’t think they are the main reason our systems take considerable time to sound their best.

Spot on Marty. And the surrounds might also be a factor. Vibration would heat them making them more supple.

 

[Manos_Bits]

come on friends !! a well build class D amp plays excellent !! this own built DIY class D power little monster plays gorgeous, I wish you all can audition.. (It is based on IRS2092 module and it adopts top class linear Power Supplies.. It's efficiency is ~ 90% !!)

 

[Ron Resnick]

Good discussion. The question of understanding when one’s system comes up to speed so it sounds best involves many things, not only the time it takes to optimize the performance of a Class A amplifier. This is a topic I have struggled with for a long time. A number of observations that still leave me with questions about what accounts for this “system optimization” process. It seems that every time I change a piece of gear and wonder if that will effect time to optimization, the results are always the same. It always takes 90 minutes before my system “sings”.

Some issues that I have considered responsible to this include (but may not be limited to):

• Does the cartridge suspension take a while to become maximally supple and responsive??
• Do tubes take time to optimize?
• Do electronics take time to warm up event though they are powered on all the time?
• Related to #3, Do power supply capacitors in particular need time to optimize when playing at typical levels?
• Do my Gryphon Class A amps take time to warm up due to its Class A design?

The answer to all of these is obviously yes. But still, there is a nagging feeling that I’m missing something important. What I suggest is that the 800 lb gorilla in the room is that the speaker itself needs significant time to warm up! It should not be a surprise to think that a speaker's performance may be very different when “cold” than when it has been playing a while a typical listening volume. The reason for this is that the crossover components are designed with precise values (often +/- 1%) and that these values are very much effected by operating temperature. The same is true of voice coils. These are huge heat generators in a speaker. So perhaps it should be no surprise that no matter what components I may have changed in the past that I thought would alter my time to system optimization, nothing ever seemed to matter. It always takes 90 minutes to sound its best. I genuinely think that the factor I have always overlooked is speaker optimization due to the time it takes to reach thermal stability of the drivers and crossovers. Class A amps take time to optimize and when they do, they are indeed significant heat generators. But I don’t think they are the main reason our systems take considerable time to sound their best.

Am I correct in assuming that this very thoughtful and detailed analysis pre-supposes that there is no alcohol involved in one’s system’s warm-up process?

Otherwise, if one has a drink when one fires up one’s system, it is easy for me to understand a positive correlation to improving sound over the next 90 minutes.