CD Quality Is Not High-Res Audio

[microstrip]

Proven: Good Old Redbook CD Sounds the Same as the Hi-Rez Formats

Oh, no, Meyer and Moran again ...
Bob, do you really want to put an end to the thread?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Oh, no, Meyer and Moran again ...
Bob, do you really want to put an end to the thread?

I don't know if he does, but please....YES! Poor dog...how often does he have to get beat!

 

[Julf]

Oh, no, Meyer and Moran again ...
Bob, do you really want to put an end to the thread?

Indeed, please - can we instead have some actual, verified evidence that people can hear a difference?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Indeed, please - can we instead have some actual, verified evidence that people can hear a difference?

That would put an end to it. The evidence wouldn't need to be perfect. The methodology would not need to be flawless. Just as good as Meyer and Moran, and delivering very different results would be sufficient? Then M&M would be put into question instead of just knocked around the badmouth circle.

Tim

 

[Robin Hood]

Aren't you contradicting yourself? It is about the training and there are many studies that show that even those with less acute hearing can do better when trained than untrained listeners with better acuity. Respondent selection is critical if what is being tested is the extreme rather than the mean in terms of audibility.

The fallacy is that so called audiophiles are stereotyped as a population composed of people that are untrained or have not developed more critical listening skills than the "vast majority". It's like saying all tennis players in a double blind can't tell the differences in rackets, string pattern, tension or even balls. There WILL be those that can, by feel alone. They will be able to tell when things just don't feel right. Whether they can identify what the causes are or not, or if they can articulate the same in a language "acceptable" to the scientifically inclined is beside the point.

Since I believe you and I seem to be in complete agreement I see no contradiction. People have to be taught to listen or see properly, in fact to use all of their senses properly. If one cannot hear the differences between MP3s, CDs, hi rez PCM, hi rez DSD, analog tape and vinyl that all measure differently, the limitation of not being able to discern the differences lies with the person. But since the enjoyment of music is very subjective, ignorance and the ability to overlook some format deficiencies can be bliss.

 

[microstrip]

(...) But since the enjoyment of music is very subjective, ignorance and the ability to overlook some format deficiencies can be bliss.

Robin Hood,

Although it can be true, I can not resist quoting a certain book by F. Toole, Was it “real”? Was it “reproduction”? Good sound or bad? Does it matter? The fact that these feelings happen confirms that the system works. But—and this is the motivation for this book—if any sound is rewarding, better and more spatially complex sound may be more pleasurable. .

This aspect and and hobby created around this desire of a better sound keeps us posting.

I hope Tim does not take note of this post ...

 

[NorthStar]

Didn't the test just involve a 16/44.1 'bottleneck' in series with hi-rez playback, though? I think that was the idea, anyway.

Seems that way, when you read clearly the article.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Here is the website of a well known studio in holland , interesting the old tapemchines are still there , click on mastering
According to the sacd menu they were on the forefront of dsd sacd recording, sacd menu .

http://www.polyhymnia.nl/

 

[NorthStar]

Since I believe you and I seem to be in complete agreement I see no contradiction. People have to be taught to listen or see properly, in fact to use all of their senses properly. If one cannot hear the differences between MP3s, CDs, hi rez PCM, hi rez DSD, analog tape and vinyl that all measure differently, the limitation of not being able to discern the differences lies with the person. But since the enjoyment of music is very subjective, ignorance and the ability to overlook some format deficiencies can be bliss.

Good post. ...Some people have an ability to listen, to discern, better than others. ...And the members here at WBF are part of that very elite.

 

[NorthStar]

Here is the website of a well known studio in holland , interesting the old tapemchines are still there , click on mastering

http://www.polyhymnia.nl/

Nice villa.

* That confirms (Mastering process for DSD and DVD-Audio) what the article (Proven: ...) was saying: that a greater care went into making SACD and DVD-Audio recordings and with the potential of better sound quality (to my set of ears it certainly does).

But read that article (Good Old Redbook CD ...) attentively; then it all makes sense.

_________

ECM is a record label from Europe, with mainly avant-garde jazz musicians and new age and classical artist musicians.
The quality of their CD music recordings is fantastic, and it takes no prisoners in this digital hi-res audio age. **ECM is CD and LP.
Channel Classics and Reference Recordings are two other ones. ...And they both do CD and SACD and LP (HDCD too for RR).

 

[rbbert]

...
But read that article (Good Old Redbook CD ...) attentively; then it all makes sense.

_________

ECM is a record label from Europe, with mainly avant-garde jazz musicians and new age and classical artist musicians.
The quality of their CD music recordings is fantastic, and it takes no prisoners in this digital hi-res audio age. **ECM is CD and LP.
Channel Classics and Reference Recordings are two other ones. ...And they both do CD and SACD and LP (HDCD too for RR).

Well, I've read the entire Meyer and Moran article from the BAS speaker a couple of times, as well as many Internet commentaries and debates and M & M's own follow-up, and I can't say it makes any more sense to me...

 

[Don Hills]

Good post. ...Some people have an ability to listen, to discern, better than others. ...And the members here at WBF are part of that very elite.

Not all of them - just those who have validated their abilities via independant, peer reviewed blind listening tests.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Robin Hood,

Although it can be true, I can not resist quoting a certain book by F. Toole, Was it “real”? Was it “reproduction”? Good sound or bad? Does it matter? The fact that these feelings happen confirms that the system works. But—and this is the motivation for this book—if any sound is rewarding, better and more spatially complex sound may be more pleasurable. .

This aspect and and hobby created around this desire of a better sound keeps us posting.

I hope Tim does not take note of this post ...

He sees and agrees.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

But since the enjoyment of music is very subjective, ignorance and the ability to overlook some format deficiencies can be bliss.

Boy, tell me about it.

 

[NorthStar]

Well, I've read the entire Meyer and Moran article from the BAS speaker a couple of times, as well as many Internet commentaries and debates and M & M's own follow-up, and I can't say it makes any more sense to me...

...The way their double-blind tests were performed, and the way the digital machines were setup for playback, and the group of people doing the listening and evaluation.
It don't make sense Rob? What does then?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

...The way their double-blind tests were performed, and the way the digital machines were setup for playback, and the group of people doing the listening and evaluation.
It don't make sense Rob? What does then?

I'm not a member of BAS, so I don't have a copy of M&M. I've read a couple of pretty comprehensive articles on it, however, and seen a thousand shots taken at it on forums. The only one that really holds much water is the lack of controls to determine that partcipants could hear known differences. That's a legit criticism, but participants were carefully screened, there were a bunch of them, the testing was extensive -- multiple systems, rooms and listening material, experienced, civilian and expert listeners...the list goes on. Dismissing M&M out of hand for the lack of that control just makes no sense to me, but then again, I believe an informal, unscientific blind A-B at home beats sighted listening hands down for the purpose of hearing differences/evaluating gear. Sighted listening reveals more about biases than equipment. Save it for pleasure listening. And get the blue lights. They don't glare so much in a darkened room.

Tim

 

[rbbert]

I don't dismiss M & M out of hand. In addition to a lack of controls there was no attempt to determine the likelihood of a real difference being missed; we've discussed this ad nauseum. As we've also discussed, there are pretty well done studies showing that depending on source material and playback equipment, CD's and 320k MP3's are hard or impossible to distinguish for most listeners. So what?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I don't dismiss M & M out of hand. In addition to a lack of controls there was no attempt to determine the likelihood of a real difference being missed; we've discussed this ad nauseum. As we've also discussed, there are pretty well done studies showing that depending on source material and playback equipment, CD's and 320k MP3's are hard or impossible to distinguish for most listeners. So what?

That is the lack of control, but plenty was done to ensure that any differences could be heard -- multiple, high- quality systems, level matching, expert listeners, a broad variety of test material of very high quality, screening of participants for hearing ability.... I think the control for audibility was the only thing missing, but I'm open to any substantive response. It's hard for untrained listeners to distinguish between 320kbps and RB in most material, yes. So what? So it seems pretty easy to believe that the difference between cd and high-res, when that difference, except for the distortion artifacts, is all in the supersonic range, would be even harder. I wasn't in the study so I can't testify, and one study certainly doesn't constitute proof, but the results are really not hard to believe. He'll, people here and all over the internet audiophile community were praising hi-res files a few years ago that ended up being up sampled reebok. Expectations are powerful.

Tim

 

[NorthStar]

... He'll, people here and all over the internet audiophile community were praising hi-res files a few years ago that ended up being up sampled reebok. Expectations are powerful.

Tim

History just keeps repeating itself.

 

[NorthStar]