Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Audire]

and please reveal the alternative.

As I stated earlier, we don't know the mind of all the engineers yet. We haven’t even fully heard yet what XDMS will completely do and what about XDMS + 76, or whatever? The Star Trek of digital audio is before us - "Where no man has gone before.”

 

[Mike Lavigne]

As I stated earlier, we don't know the mind of all the engineers yet. We haven’t fully heard yet even what XDMS will completely do and what about XDMS + 76, or whatever?

the last thing i want to do is throw cold water on fun new stuff being introduced. i'm sure the next step of XDMS will be good.

enjoy it!

but it's not what i was referring to asking you to help us know the next step in digital formats........after....... PCM and dsd. or even IF there will ever be a next step.

which was my point.

 

[bryans]

Did I miss the memo on digital trying to sound like analog? Or is this just another made up "Audiophile" talking point?

Sounds like excellent marketing to get people to chase the holy grail.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am quite content with both my digital and analog FEU. I am in a good place and have been for several years now. Enjoy the music.

That's great!

What is "FEU"?

 

[Ron Resnick]

For digital to sound like vinyl, you must concede that vinyl sounds like digital.

I don't conceive of it this way. I am saying that it is gradually getting more difficult to tell vinyl and digital apart, and that it is gradually getting more difficult to determine which achieves greater suspension of disbelief. I have been pulling the rip cord to get me out of this increasingly difficult analysis by preferring tape to both.

Could you describe the vinyl set up in its system context and the digital high-resolution local computer files you directly compared it to in that same context to conclude that they sound "pretty darn close"?

Over the course of the eight days that David Blumenstein visited me we did some careful comparative listening among his high resolution files andvinyl and tape

In what ways, or how exactly do they sound pretty darn close?

I am going only by suspension of disbelief, not discrete audiophile attributes.

In your system thread, you infer that your digital sounds very different from your analog tapes and from your vinyl. Are you now streaming music as much and playing tapes and LPs because you think the formats sound like each other?

When I am by myself I do zero streaming.

Ron, in your recent member visit video, you asked Jim a question (around 3:30 mark) about how he thought the optical cartridge sounded different from his other cartridge, and in his response, he said something like, "it did not sound like digital in any way". You nodded as if you agreed with him or understood what he meant. What did he mean that it did not sound like digital in any way?

More effective to ask Jim directly. I understood him to mean that the DS Audio optical cartridge did not sound edgy or aggressive or artificial like bad digital.

Are you going to answer my question?

 

[sbo6]

SANCTIMONIOUS

This is my problem with you and your “tip top level”. You have not progressed or learned anything as an audiophile. Still doing and following the same uninformed practices that you were doing 20 years ago, going after the latest and “greatest” shiny new items or the most expensive components without really exploring what is really the best available. For example, have you ever heard a DHT filament bias linestage? It would change your perception of what detail and clarity is. Have you listened to any single ended OTL amplifiers? Have you compared your Wadax against a true 1-bit high rate DSD dac feed by HQPLAYER? I could go on and on. You think that you are sitting high, perched up looking down on others but look up and you will see who is really on top.

Carlos, I'm having a hard time getting to the point of your message, maybe you can be a little bit more clear? ;-)

All I can say in response is - walk a mile before you abre la boca. ;-)

 

[marty]

SANCTIMONIOUS

This is my problem with you and your “tip top level”. You have not progressed or learned anything as an audiophile. Still doing and following the same uninformed practices that you were doing 20 years ago, going after the latest and “greatest” shiny new items or the most expensive components without really exploring what is really the best available. For example, have you ever heard a DHT filament bias linestage? It would change your perception of what detail and clarity is. Have you listened to any single ended OTL amplifiers? Have you compared your Wadax against a true 1-bit high rate DSD dac feed by HQPLAYER? I could go on and on. You think that you are sitting high, perched up looking down on others but look up and you will see who is really on top.

Carlos,
When somebody invests a great deal of time and effort to evaluate something, whether it's audio gear or something entirely different, and expresses their opinion, it's fine to disagree with that opinion. But when you call someone sanctimonious for expressing their opinion, that implies a moral component which seems totally misplaced in the context of your criticism of someone's personal preferences. That's a bridge too far and is neither appropriate or welcome on what has always been and will hopefully remain, a gentlemen's forum. C'mon man, lighten up.

As far as a DHT filament bias linestage, I have no idea what that is, but am curious as to why there seem to be no commercially available devices for sale with this technology as one would think more than one of today's leading designers or manufacturers would be offering them for sale by now if was the cat's meow. Why do you think that is not the case?
Marty

 

[sbo6]

I'm going to pull a 180 - I've been vocal in the past about how digital $ for $ is better than analog until you reach ~$20K investment. Now, I believe the opposite as I unexpectedly jumped back into analog with a modest setup that I would argue is darn close to my digital. Yet, the digital setup is ~2x the price of the analog.

With regard to your questions and situation (being 125% frank) - I'm sure you can make your digital match or surpass your analog, since, I've heard the Terminator and the Innuos line of products (I had the Statement in my system) and there's many significantly better digital front ends. DCS and MSB (I've heard several models of each many times) would certainly be levels better. And even though I haven't heard you exact analog setup, IMO and IME - yes you can vastly improve your digital to meet or surpass your analog.

WRT the philosophy of analog (the up, down ritual, the cleaning, the tweaking, the purchasing of physical media, etc.) for me, I've always said, if I got back into vinyl, it would be for the records that haven't been remastered and available on digital and / or were remastered horribly on digital, that would be my focus, and I'm sorry I didn't act sooner. There is a plethora of phenomenal vinyl remastered that expands on our "best of" musical favorites adding to digital, and for the select few, you can add tape. So, I'll get up, and down to hear that extra ~5% of music that I would've never had the opportunity previously with only digital, it's worth it. Good stuff for us all!

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, I'm having a hard time getting to the point of your message, maybe you can be a little bit more clear? ;-)

All I can say in response is - walk a mile before you abre la boca. ;-)

What is so hard for you to comprehend? When someone starts spewing self-righteous statements about having to have “tip top level”, whatever that is, equipment/system to make a determination of once’s personal preference that’s what I’m talking about. Someone felt superior to others by posting a condescending post like that back and I provided the reality check. Is that clear enough for you? It’s hard to believe that I had to explain that.

 

[sbo6]

What is so hard for you to comprehend? When someone starts spewing self-righteous statements about having to have “tip top level”, whatever that is, equipment/system to make a determination of once’s personal preference that’s what I’m talking about. Someone felt superior to others by posting a condescending post like that back and I provided the reality check. Is that clear enough for you? It’s hard to believe that I had to explain that.

Carlos, is he lying? Does Mike not have one of the best if not the best system in this forum? Can you claim you have the same experience over many years (no offense Mike) buying top - notch gear and meticulously comparing? Most of us cannot.

 

[Steve Williams]

the last thing i want to do is throw cold water on fun new stuff being introduced. i'm sure the next step of XDMS will be good.

enjoy it!

but it's not what i was referring to asking you to help us know the next step in digital formats........after....... PCM and dsd. or even IF there will ever be a next step.

which was my point.

Mike

I'm with you and don't dispute your argument. Having said that I have learned never to doubt their goal of Taiko and Emile at the helm. I can tell you right now that with everything Taiko has done as well as tweaking my Horizon I can state with virtual confidence that streaming files has become indistinguishable from the same file in my internal library.

Further Emile has about 17 projects in the pipeline all of which will serve to improve the SQ. However what is going unnoticed by many is that Emile has developed a new interface which AFAIK has just become licensed and I am betting will soon become the industry standard and replace USB, Ethernet, AES/EBU, S/PDIF etc. I can say that vinyl is still superior in my system but I can also say with confidence that every time there is a Taiko update which improves SQ, the difference becomes a little less evident. I know you remain skeptical as surely do I , however I have learned never to bet against what Emile has projected for Taiko. Even if it never is achieved I can say that there are many of us here who believe very strongly in Emile's determination. So as I see it , it is a multitude of many different changes along the way . I don't see the gap changing with one great swoop but rather a multitude of small steps.

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos,
When somebody invests a great deal of time and effort to evaluate something, whether it's audio gear or something entirely different, and expresses their opinion, it's fine to disagree with that opinion. But when you call someone sanctimonious for expressing their opinion, that implies a moral component which seems totally misplaced in the context of your criticism of someone's personal preferences. That's a bridge too far and is neither appropriate or welcome on what has always been and will hopefully remain, a gentlemen's forum. C'mon man, lighten up.

As far as a DHT filament bias linestage, I have no idea what that is, but am curious as to why there seem to be no commercially available devices for sale with this technology as one would think more than one of today's leading designers or manufacturers would be offering them for sale by now if was the cat's meow. Why do you think that is not the case?
Marty

Perhaps the wrong choice of words, is “self-righteous” a better choice for you?

Ask Thomas Mayer, he makes a great 10Y Silver DHT for around $27K; and there is the rub, most DHT linestages can be DIY built with quality components for around $2K. There just isn’t the financial incentive for commercial companies to built these simple circuits as it would put them in a place where they would really have an impossible time justifying their outrageous prices. By the way, I own one of the Thomas Mayer’s 10Y Silver linestages, along with 7 other DHT linestages and across all of them the level of detail and clarity is superior to commercially available linestages that I have had the opportunity to own, many many in house at this time, or to listen to.

You know, when you wonder away from the mainstream audiophile world there are a number of types of exceptional products that do not have commercial equivalents. You should try it some time.

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, is he lying? Does Mike not have one of the best if not the best system in this forum? Can you claim you have the same experience over many years (no offense Mike) buying top - notch gear and meticulously comparing? Most of us cannot.

To me, NO, he does not! I have been at this for over a decade and a half longer then and have observed his progression, or lack there off.

 

[microstrip]

if there is advancement in digital music reproduction surpassing analog, it will not be related necessarily to stereo. it will be some sort of technical sound break though maybe not even related to music reproduction. then pulled into the music reproduction process and applied to stereo or surround.

Here comes the "magic" ... As long as you are obsessed with ranking we will go nowhere.

until/unless evolution of the species changes how our senses work, our preferences for less processed music reproduction will not change. it's hard wired into us.

Well, this the argument F. Toole used to create his statistical correct sound. Even mono sound fans still use i to support their preference.

The high-end things otherwise, believing that education on a preference can create a more enjoyable sound.

those sorts of biases are not learned. more like imprinted. we simply become aware of them.

Sorry, no. High-end biases are learned. It is why we have such diversity in the high-end and often love/hate relations with sound quality. Remember that mine is better than yours is just an individual opinion, more people prefer mine to yours is a fact (true or false, susceptible to debate) .

 

[Mike Lavigne]

To me, NO, he does not! I have been at this for over a decade and a half longer then and have observed his progression, or lack there off.

Carlos and i have history. his attacks started on my Audiogon system page 15 years ago, after his local hifi guys tired of him, i was a big target for his big need to express himself. no worries. sticks and stones and all that stuff.

next case.

 

[Ron Resnick]

What is so hard for you to comprehend? When someone starts spewing self-righteous statements about having to have “tip top level”, whatever that is, equipment/system to make a determination of once’s personal preference that’s what I’m talking about. Someone felt superior to others by posting a condescending post like that back and I provided the reality check. Is that clear enough for you? It’s hard to believe that I had to explain that.

You calling somebody sanctimonious is very rich.

I stipulate that I did not go to psychiatry school over the weekend, but your emotional and overwrought triggered reaction to a report about subjective personal experiences suggests insecurity or envy.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Here comes the "magic" ... As long as you are obsessed with ranking

i am in some ways. part of my approach. i enjoy the investigation and process of it. it drives me.

we will go nowhere.

speak for yourself. i'm not part of that 'we'. i'm happily where i want to be.

 

[Carlos269]

suggests insecurity or envy.

Oh it’s that so. Appreciate your self reflection on me.

 

[SoundMann]

Analog tape and vinyl noise and distortions, what else?

Resolution and refinement!

 

[PeterA]

Over the course of the eight days that David Blumenstein visited me we did some careful comparative listening among his high resolution files andvinyl and tape


I am going only by suspension of disbelief, not discrete audiophile attributes.



When I am by myself I do zero streaming.

OK, your claim is based on your own experience over eight days listening to your three sources and the standard is suspension of disbelief. For vinyl you were using a Denon turntable from the 1980s or 90s? Are you holding that up as the standard and basis on which you are making your claim generalizing about streaming sounding like vinyl?

Does Al M’s Yggy DAC qualify in your mind as latest generation DAC? If so, it sounds different from my vinyl. I think that is the most modern DAC I’ve heard.

Does your latest generation Lampizator DAC reach the same level of suspension of disbelief that you heard from David’s turntable in Utah?

I think your claim is fairly unique. Of course personal preference is a different subject.