Cable Theory

terryj

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forgot to say

so amir, given the problems you mentioned, AND the 'would people accept the results', can we not do it another way?

how about we record the signal at the speaker terminal. Swap the cable, record the same signal.

Use audiodiffmaker to subtract the two, and see what remains. (free program on the net)

That will be a signal that can be played on a system, and can be uploaded for all to hear.

I spose the only concern would be relative levels, those in the know would know how to fix that problem (no point in paying for expensive cables if a small turn of the vol know will get you to the same place)

With the test I mentioned above, all the arguments you raised were indeed brought up, 'the switch itself may have skewed the result'.

well maybe, as you say let's assume it's contribution is not zero. But to my way of thinking if that is true (that it did skew the result) then again, why futz with cables if it is such a fragile result? That alone 'proves' the point that the contribution is decidedly minor.

Yet, it seems cables CAN be heard thru switches, and I'd bet the switch used in the test box is better contact/quality that the switches found in all pre amps??? Yet they can hear it thru the pre amp switches.
 

amirm

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so amir, given the problems you mentioned, AND the 'would people accept the results', can we not do it another way?
Hey, I like any creative thoughts! :)

how about we record the signal at the speaker terminal. Swap the cable, record the same signal.
How would we do that? The levels are orders of magnitude higher than any line input on the ADC. Yes, we could create a resistive network to divide that down. That would change the impedance that the wire normally would see. And folks would then dismiss the results on that basis.

I spose the only concern would be relative levels, those in the know would know how to fix that problem (no point in paying for expensive cables if a small turn of the vol know will get you to the same place)
Per above, I know how do that but not the satisfaction of the people who believe in the cable differences. To be fair to them, if cable differences are small then we can't make gross changes to the transmission line and then pretend it shouldn't make a difference. If that were true, then why do we even bother with the test? I mean if adding more things to the cable is supposed to not make a difference, then obviously cable doesn't make a difference either!

well maybe, as you say let's assume it's contribution is not zero. But to my way of thinking if that is true (that it did skew the result) then again, why futz with cables if it is such a fragile result? That alone 'proves' the point that the contribution is decidedly minor.
I agree and have always taken the position that the difference if any will be small. What makes it "big" is having the mind read more into that difference than exists. I do not believe there is any way to justify big differences in cables. No theory exists to remotely explain big difference in cables.

Yet, it seems cables CAN be heard thru switches, and I'd bet the switch used in the test box is better contact/quality that the switches found in all pre amps??? Yet they can hear it thru the pre amp switches.
:) Still, the purpose of any good experiment is to make sure the test apparatus does not impact the results. We need to prove that fact and not assume it.
 

amirm

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I should add that I would find the above test valuable. So if you can find someone less lazy than me to try it, that would be wonderful! :D
 

terryj

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I thought we were talking speaker cables not IC's??

I could be totally wrong, and you totally right, but why/how is it hard to record a signal 'from somewhere'?? It is just an input (I presume) treat it as a mic signal if you will, record it in audacitym use diffmaker.

A bit (lot?) like the null tests ethan talks about.

Now, if I have it totally wrong someone will come and say 'look stupid, this is why you cannot do this....'
 

amirm

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It is not hard. Here are the new issues introduced:

1. Output of your amp at full power is in +-40 to 60 volts. The input of an audio capture card is +-2 to +- 4 volts. So you need to step that down. You can do that with a simple resistor voltage divider. But those resistors need to dissipate a lot of power. There are "dummy" loads for this use but likely change value as they heat up. When you switch cables, you need to make sure that you don't capture at a different temp. Without careful instrumentation this may be hard. Any mismatch here will result in 100% of the audio samples being different since amplitude is changing.

2. As I noted, the load you are simulating now becomes that of the dummy load which is different than a speaker. So someone could say that their cable works with real world examples better.

3. The capture system will have its errors. We need to therefore prove that error is negligible relative to cable difference. Since we don't know the level of distortion due to cable, that is hard to prove.

4. You could create new problems that didn't exist before. Hooking up the output of the amp to the input of a PC capturing audio might introduce different noise profile depending on which cable you use.

I have done a lot of these differential tests and it can be very difficult to do. In all likelihood, you need a smart differencing system which filters out the things you are not interested in (e.g. residual noise in the capture system).

Again, I like the idea but before we do a lot of work, we need to understand all of these factors and see if the people on the other side of the fence are comfortable with them. If not, we waste time proving nothing.
 

c1ferrari

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Thanks, Gary

Thanks! I'm having a great time, but this thread begs attention :D

For interconnects, time domain is certainly important. A time domain reflectometer can be extremely useful to show impedance mismatches. However, my philosophy to cable is design is to "do no wrong" and not to try to fix impedance mismatches in the system.

My figures in the first post were my attempts at a balanced minimum LCR for loudspeaker cables. Due to the characteristic impedance of loudspeakers, I don't know of any way to minimize time domain reflections in loudspeaker cables.


-nt
 

c1ferrari

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The one and only. Your conundrum made me think of the lyrics to that song.

Ron,

Imagine the $$$ that would have been raised in CA had Prop 19 passed :cool: I think Humboldt could have lead CA out of the economic doldrums - hehe. :)
 

terryj

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got it amir, thanks. So dumb old me was trying to get a big stick in a little hole eh?

back to an oscilliscope? but no capture of sound.

maybe we do need to test ICs then, (??) lower voltage and power requirements. Have we started to overcome your problems then? Not being a cable guy, but are ICs regarded any differently than speaker cables? (more or less important, easier or harder to hear differences)

I'm sure all the points you mentioned are *trivial* in proper engineering circles, but just not something we can do easily at home (correct me on the trivial bit if needed BTW)

So, looks like we are back to dbt's....and as we know there are many objections that can be raised with them if so desired.

The human mind, wonderful and interesting eh?

FAR more fascinating than mere audio.
 

tesseract

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As I have always maintained, it is just down to human nature.

Very few of us are able to change our thoughts on a subject, no matter the rational arguments on that subject.

Once we have decided, that's that.

It's a bit like borrowing the book from the library, and some arrogant bugger has circled phrases and points eralier. (as if his opinions are important enought to be recorded for immortality). One thing we note from looking at the paragraphs circled (and his 'commentary' on them)...they either already agree or already disagree.

Same with audio discussions on the net. We will accept those posts/proofs that we already have, reject those that conflict.

It is rare indeed for people to be willing to learn, sad as that may be. (they do exist)




It's just a paragraph in the universal book of knowledge, to be circled and commented upon by the reader as he sees fit. And those comments are usually 'I already agree with this' or 'I already disagree with this'.

rare is the 'well, that argument changed my viewpoint or made me view things differently'.

Hello terryj.

What you are refering to is this: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/23/confirmation-bias/

After years of listening through various cables, I have come to the conclusion that they do indeed affect the sound. Not always for the better, and the differences are not always immediately apparent. But this holds true for amplifiers, CD players, and all kinds of gear. Sometimes, for some people... even speakers!

I also believe that IC's have more bearing on the sound than speaker cables. Although, oddly enough, speaker cables are the favorite whipping boy in these discussions.
 

terryj

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hi tess, good to meet again.

got those geddes speakers yet?

Maybe I am referring to that, dunno, but hey, you don't need confirmation from some source to validate simple human observation do you? We all 'suffer' from it.

Maybe then you can help amir with some of his questions??

So, you reckon we might be able to use diffmaker with IC's?? (don't trust me on the technical questions tho, let's see what those who actually know say)
 

tesseract

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hi tess, good to meet again.

got those geddes speakers yet?

Maybe I am referring to that, dunno, but hey, you don't need confirmation from some source to validate simple human observation do you? We all 'suffer' from it.

Maybe then you can help amir with some of his questions??

So, you reckon we might be able to use diffmaker with IC's?? (don't trust me on the technical questions tho, let's see what those who actually know say)

No Geddes yet. I am going to work on my bass first, with the CHT 18.T Duo. Then possibly CHT PRO-10's, GedLee Nathans or AudioKinesis Rhythm Prisms.

We do all suffer from our perceptions. I am learning this.

Have you seen this? http://www.wimp.com/mcgurkeffect/
 

terryj

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no, I hadn't seen that before, thanks tess. Is that from the BBC series (can't remember the name right now, evidently it went into all the different ways we *fool* ourselves...usually the links to it are 'not available in your area')

You should look up the Ames Room, that is interesting too.

I wonder if it works in reverse, ie saying 'fa'fa' will convert to 'ba ba'.

NOT quite the same as when we may fool ourselves in sighted comparisons (I feel) but it was good. Thanks.

Good luck with the bass, it's worth it.
 

tesseract

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I am not sure where it came from, I don't watch TV. Picked it up over on AVS. I'll check out the Ames room tomorrow.

I agree, it isn't the same as a sighted test, but thought it is an interesting take on human perception.
 

The Smokester

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No, everything to the right of C1 (vertical) capacitor represents the model of the speaker. The cap and everything to the left represents the model of the speaker cable (sans the source all the way to the left).

Amir, I meant to ask (less ambiguously) are L5 and L6 the speaker drivers? It is the power across the drivers that is most relevant (not just the speaker terminals).
 

amirm

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Amir, I meant to ask (less ambiguously) are L5 and L6 the speaker drivers?
I didn't create the model. That said, no, they are not the drivers by themselves. The equivalent model of a speaker accounts for voicecoil resistance, voicecoil inductance, cone suspension (represented by a cap), cone mass, and cone losses. In addition, the model I used simulates a two-way speaker plus its crossover. So the entire thing represents the speaker as a whole.

Here is a typical single cone driver equiv. circuit:



It is the power across the drivers that is most relevant (not just the speaker terminals).
I just re-ran the simulation while probing the equiv. circuit above and it made the same tiny difference when I varied the cable characteristics per above.
 

c1ferrari

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Thanks, all

for a very stimulating thread! :D Perhaps, I'd missed it earlier; however, I'm curious if energy has been alluded to in modelling/simulating and characterizing signal transmission...
 

Orb

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If you hook up your conventional voltage feedback solid state amp with say one foot of cable to your speaker, and then sweep the amp 20 to 20k and record amplitude say each 1KHz direct at the speaker terminal, then next use 30 feet of the same cable, do the same test, you will measure differences in amplitude, and many will exceed 0.1 db and a few 1db or more.

Your plot will also therefore show rises or falls in frequency response amplitude, and that would be audible if you have golden ears and listen to your music by alternately switching between a one foot and 30 foot cable every half second or so!

In other words, unless you have a real long cable (say over 6 feet) or really goofy one, if you are not switching the cable in or out, you then need a very good aural memory to know that there is a boost or drop say, in the upper midband due to your excessively long cable.

This is a test most anyone can do at home, however, with your cheap radio shack wire it will be harder to see the changes than with the mega buck mega rip off stuff.

Tom

An alternative that I like is a preference test where you keep a cable connected for a week and listen to music as often as is possible, while noting how long you enjoy listening and feel like turning it off, while also noting if you start to skip tracks-become fidgety-etc.
After a week switch to the other cable and repeat.
This can also be done blind where a friend will go in and swap the cables for that week so it is unknown which is in, as it is lengthy preference test you do not need to be in the room at the time of change and can even start listening much later that day or the next.

What is interesting is that by week 3 or 4 of repeated switching cables, I find your listening behaviour will possibly be affected either by greater listening satisfaction or becomes worst (similar to fatigue-less interest-etc) depending what cable is in that week.
If there are any differences I find listening often over a week and then switching and repeating can form a preference for one and then also affects listening behaviour, more so than trying to identify subtle sonic variations unless sure what it is that is affected and by what traits-characteristics of music or sounds.
If no change in listening trend and behaviour-enjoyment, go for the cheapest :)
However in my experience it can be quite surprising which cable is preferred and it can be the cheaper one, the problem IMO is that there is no real quick way of identifying from specs-etc a "whats best" cable for a person and the system.
Some cheap cables can outperform in terms of preference expensive ones, and a few mid-priced and expensive ones may outperform all others, but IMO there is no proven reason why for the well made cables.
Just the theories we see posted.
The problem is, who really has time or more importantly the incentive and motivation to do such extensive preference testing of so many cables to find one that may more ideal than the current cable you are using if the system is already enjoyable.
In a way its a lot down to pot luck with a bit of guestimate on narrowing the selection, and this is what sucks about cables IMO :)

Relating to aural memory, I am not sure how well the facts can be weighed up on this because there are posters I respect who do mention aural memory is short term.
And yet a test at AVreview with 4 listeners suggests (not scientifically proven with their testing and statistically not enough) it is possible to differentiate in DBT between cables without fast switching (it was a slow process as they had to leave the room each time the cable was changed to avoid cues/tells from the person swapping.
So their testing averaged I think around 45 mins per test, their test is more anecdotal as they only managed 6 tests using 6 different music tracks.
But the delay was caused by amount of time some required due to swapping often and also having to leave the room.
So maybe this is the key, lengthy and repeated listening to A,B, and X before even tempting to make a selection.
The downside is even the listener who suggested not using a switch box was sick of the testing in the end, and they never reached a useful 12 tests, however he did score 6/6 (including the time that A and B were same cable - he stated that he felt he failed as he could not tell a difference).
So an actual large study would be highly impractical from a logistical,practical (time allocated and completing the test along with listener patience and concentration) and funding perspective if the listener was allowed such lengthy and repeated time to study A-B-X in the test.
Another interesting point is that without the switch box the music had to be repeated from start to where they stopped without the ability to listen continually to the music while switching, so forcing often a repeat of the same segments.

Anyway I appreciate such topics on ABX may be more relevant to a different thread, but as a listener did score highly could suggest that maybe it is not possible to generalise about aural memory.
I appreciate there are a lot of studies out there I have not read, and the test they did could had thrown up some quirks as it was not scientifically driven.

Coming back to anecdotal, any reviewers who are members here want to chime in with their experience as I notice they do seem to own (please no comments about how they are bribed with free cables or the JV scenario) and possibly use multiple cables for reviewing components such as speakers and also pre-power amps.
Jeff, do you reviewers at Soundstage tend to use multiple cables when reviewing products?

Cheers
Orb
 

garylkoh

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I also believe that IC's have more bearing on the sound than speaker cables. Although, oddly enough, speaker cables are the favorite whipping boy in these discussions.

I think that in order of bearing on the sound, speaker cables, single-ended IC's, and then balanced IC's. One reason that IC's have more bearing on the sound is that multiple IC's are used.

In this discussion, I started out with loudspeaker cables because they are easier to measure and model, and for me they were easier to listen to.

IC's have far more capacitance, and far less inductance.
 

garylkoh

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So, you reckon we might be able to use diffmaker with IC's?? (don't trust me on the technical questions tho, let's see what those who actually know say)

The problem with diffmaker (and with all the measurement techniques we can imagine) is that as Amir has shown, the differences are far below what is theoretical audible. Any way that we use to measure may introduce even more errors.

In order to use diffmaker, for example, we would need to convert the signal to digital. The jitter on the ADC plus all the associated wiring would account for more differences than the cable under test.

Take for example the technique that HiFI+, Vertex AQ and Nordost used to produce this:
http://www.nordost.com/downloads/New Approaches To Audio Measurement.pdf

It took a defense contractor in sonar detection to actually measure the difference. That's far beyond my ability, I am afraid.

May be, just maybe, with a quality ADC like Bruce Brown has, we could do it, but it would take someone far less lazy than I to do it.
 

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