Cable Elevators

[johndoe21ro]

A very good explanation for the reason why cable elevators do have an audible effect:
http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/align.pdf
It is an article entitled "Audibility of temporal smearing and time misalignment of acoustic signals" by Milind N. Kunchur
from the Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of South Carolina! If anyone wants proofs, this it the place
to find them!

 

[CGabriel]

A very good explanation for the reason why cable elevators do have an audible effect:
http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/align.pdf
It is an article entitled "Audibility of temporal smearing and time misalignment of acoustic signals" by Milind N. Kunchur
from the Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of South Carolina! If anyone wants proofs, this it the place
to find them!

You should repost this in the General Forum. This is significant enough that it should not be buried in the Tweak forum.

 

[johndoe21ro]

You should repost this in the General Forum. This is significant enough that it should not be buried in the Tweak forum.

I'm afraid I wouldn't know the best place to post it as I'm not very familiar with the structure of this forum. Unfortunately I seldom enter this place as I have little time to spare! You can post that link wherever you think it is appropriate if you like!

 

[Whatmore]

A very good explanation for the reason why cable elevators do have an audible effect:
http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/align.pdf
It is an article entitled "Audibility of temporal smearing and time misalignment of acoustic signals" by Milind N. Kunchur
from the Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of South Carolina! If anyone wants proofs, this it the place
to find them!

just had a quick look, which bit exactly has anything to say about cable elevators?

 

[johndoe21ro]

just had a quick look, which bit exactly has anything to say about cable elevators?

"In a sound-reproduction system also, complexities in the response (such as due to dielectric relaxation, mechanical vibrations in cables, reverberation within speaker cabinets, and other mechanisms that store and slowly release energy) invalidate its categorization as a perfect linear system, which in turn negates a simple connection between ? and 1/?max. Because of this, an adequate frequency response need not ensure that a component....."

Just let your imagination run wild... There's no cable elevator reference in the article but that's what cable elevators are trying to achieve: to decrese the mechanical vibrations in cables... to isolate them!

 

[DonH50]

I am not sure how much mechanical isolation cable elevators add, if any; the marketing literature and claims I have seen talk about isolating them from static charges in the rug/floor. Hard risers will not provide mechanical decoupling; risers with some sort of damping material might help isolate from the floor but you've arguably made the airborne coupling problem worse.

Why not enclose the speaker runs in conduit, grounded to a good earth or chassis ground at the amp, on risers or not?

 

[CGabriel]

I am not sure how much mechanical isolation cable elevators add, if any; the marketing literature and claims I have seen talk about isolating them from static charges in the rug/floor. Hard risers will not provide mechanical decoupling; risers with some sort of damping material might help isolate from the floor but you've arguably made the airborne coupling problem worse.

Why not enclose the speaker runs in conduit, grounded to a good earth or chassis ground at the amp, on risers or not?

http://www.shunyata.com/support/559-tech-dfss-cable-system

You are correct about rigid risers not providing much isolation from the floor. Airborne vibration is much less of a problem than mechanical energy transfer from the floor. Further, if the polymer used actually absorbs vibration, then even a percentage of the airborne induced vibration is reduced.

Your last suggestion has been done already in several forms. Although it is not very practical and does little to reduce vibration in the cable.

 

[es347]

..hardwood glued to concrete...just how much can you expect the floor to vibrate? Seems like quite a stretch..

 

[stehno]

http://www.shunyata.com/support/559-tech-dfss-cable-system

You are correct about rigid risers not providing much isolation from the floor. Airborne vibration is much less of a problem than mechanical energy transfer from the floor. Further, if the polymer used actually absorbs vibration, then even a percentage of the airborne induced vibration is reduced.

Your last suggestion has been done already in several forms. Although it is not very practical and does little to reduce vibration in the cable.

I'd like to offer a differing opinion.

Floor-borne vibrations are not an issue, nor ever have been. If per chance you're thinking the story about a party where the 400 lbs. woman was dancing up a storm right in front of the TT and the stylus jumped 14 grooves and the party host became terrified, that's actually shock and impact and that has nothing directly to do with vibrations experienced in the listening room.

Air-borne vibrations along with internally-generated (motors, power supplies, etc) are the only two legitimate sources of vibrations one need concern themselves with and both are quite significant. And these are both mechanical vibrations in nature, or at least once they attach themselves to a physical object like a component chassis, internal resistors, op-amps, etc.

To the best of my knowledge, cable lifters came about from first realizing that electrostatic electricity in the carpet can induce audible distortions and lifting cables 4 - 6 inches off the carpet brought some relief. More recently, cable lifter design seems to have taken on a new twist in the attempt to also manage some source of vibrations going on somewhere. Based on a little experiment I tried last year where I replaced my 7 year old ceramic cable lifters with Shunyata's Dark Field v2 lifters and within a few days noticed several noteworthy improvements. But as I described earlier in this thread, I made some DIY lifters designed to better control the cables' vibrations which roughly doubled the Dark Field's v2 performance and took twice as long to settle in.

I suspect the vibrations in question are occurring at the wire itself since it's my understanding that all wire vibrates when current is passing through it. If so, then I guess it's also possible that the tightness of the dialectric or wire jacket enclosed around the wire could have much to do with the potential performance of some cable lifter / speaker cable combinations.

 

[CGabriel]

I'd like to offer a differing opinion.

Floor-borne vibrations are not an issue, nor ever have been. If per chance you're thinking the story about a party where the 400 lbs. woman was dancing up a storm right in front of the TT and the stylus jumped 14 grooves and the party host became terrified, that's actually shock and impact and that has nothing directly to do with vibrations experienced in the listening room.

Air-borne vibrations along with internally-generated (motors, power supplies, etc) are the only two legitimate sources of vibrations one need concern themselves with and both are quite significant. And these are both mechanical vibrations in nature, or at least once they attach themselves to a physical object like a component chassis, internal resistors, op-amps, etc.

To the best of my knowledge, cable lifters came about from first realizing that electrostatic electricity in the carpet can induce audible distortions and lifting cables 4 - 6 inches off the carpet brought some relief. More recently, cable lifter design seems to have taken on a new twist in the attempt to also manage some source of vibrations going on somewhere. Based on a little experiment I tried last year where I replaced my 7 year old ceramic cable lifters with Shunyata's Dark Field v2 lifters and within a few days noticed several noteworthy improvements. But as I described earlier in this thread, I made some DIY lifters designed to better control the cables' vibrations which roughly doubled the Dark Field's v2 performance and took twice as long to settle in.

I suspect the vibrations in question are occurring at the wire itself since it's my understanding that all wire vibrates when current is passing through it. If so, then I guess it's also possible that the tightness of the dialectric or wire jacket enclosed around the wire could have much to do with the potential performance of some cable lifter / speaker cable combinations.

Floor-borne vibrations are not an issue, nor ever have been.

At least you didn't say that floor vibrations don't exist. I respect your opinion if your have done the tests in your own system and did not notice a difference. However, a single result in one system does not mean that a different result wouldn't be had a different system. There are many variables to consider when talking about vibration induced distortions. One is the construction of the floor itself. Some are concrete slabs and some are suspended floors which react differently but all of them transmit sound waves (vibration) created by the speakers which are commonly spiked into the floor which directly couples the vibration into the floor.

Also, the fact that cables have microphonic effects and triboelectric effects are well known. Depending upon the design, some cables are more or less sensitive to vibration than others and some floors have a higher amplitude of vibration than others. Just because one system does not have a particular issue does mean that all systems are immune.

Air-borne vibrations along with internally-generated (motors, power supplies, etc) are the only two legitimate sources of vibrations one need concern themselves with and both are quite significant. And these are both mechanical vibrations in nature, or at least once they attach themselves to a physical object like a component chassis, internal resistors, op-amps, etc.

I don't quite follow your logic here. Speakers vibrating a floor which in turn vibrates a cable is mechanical in nature. Then that vibration is converted to an electrical signal within the cable. It is a very small signal to be sure. But the non-linear nature of distortion is audible in many audio systems.

To the best of my knowledge, cable lifters came about from first realizing that electrostatic electricity in the carpet can induce audible distortions and lifting cables 4 - 6 inches off the carpet brought some relief. More recently, cable lifter design seems to have taken on a new twist in the attempt to also manage some source of vibrations going on somewhere. Based on a little experiment I tried last year where I replaced my 7 year old ceramic cable lifters with Shunyata's Dark Field v2 lifters and within a few days noticed several noteworthy improvements.

I am not aware of any cable lifter product that claimed to reduce or even address the problem of electrostatic charge prior to the introduction of the Shunyata DFE. If you know of one please left me know what it is or was?

But as I described earlier in this thread, I made some DIY lifters designed to better control the cables' vibrations which roughly doubled the Dark Field's v2 performance and took twice as long to settle in.

Congratulations on your DIY project. Every implementation of a certain concept can be improved upon. As a manufacturer there are competing issues of cost and complexity when designing a commercial product. Good job improving our concept for your own personal use. The concept is patented to protect it from commercial production and sale.

I suspect the vibrations in question are occurring at the wire itself since it's my understanding that all wire vibrates when current is passing through it. If so, then I guess it's also possible that the tightness of the dialectric or wire jacket enclosed around the wire could have much to do with the potential performance of some cable lifter / speaker cable combinations.

This is largely true, although the level of vibration induced by the signal itself is quite small compared to the vibration level induced by contact with the floor. This is not an opinion. It was arrived through vibrational analysis with accelerometers which are devices that measure vibration in 3 axis.

 

[Speedskater]

I think that we all can agree that turntables and vacuum tubes are often sensitive to vibration. But if the floor or air is vibrating enough to cause even the slightest distortion in cables, then either the speakers are very, very loud or something loud (footsteps, traffic) is causing the vibration. In either case a little distortion won't matter.

Don't know where or how this static electricity idea popped up, but static electricity is DC and won't stay around very long on low impedance cable systems.

 

[Sharp 1080]

Years ago I was having a conversation with the late Brooks Berdan and he laughed when I stated if there were indeed vibrations being picked up then it should act as a guitar string when tapped?

 

[stehno]

Hi, CGabriel. Excellent product you have in the Dark Field v2's. For 7 years I'd been using some ceramic lifters by NoNameHiFi out of Italy that look like 6-inch tall chess pawns as my only focus was to lift my cables off the carpet as a safety measure. Primarily since some years earlier with another pair of speaker cables I did realize an audible improvement when lifting them off the carpet. In fact, I was quite surprised by the v2's gains and would heartedly recommend them to others.

At least you didn't say that floor vibrations don't exist.

Everything vibrates. But if floor-borne vibrations are not a concern and never have been, aside from being inaccurate, would it matter if I did?

I respect your opinion if your have done the tests in your own system and did not notice a difference. However, a single result in one system does not mean that a different result wouldn't be had a different system.

I have a sneaking suspicion you don't really respect my opinion. Your subsequent statement is probably not much different than if I said to you, "Hey, great job on the v2's considering the v2's were Shunyata's first and only attempt at designing cable lifters. How lucky for you guys to get it right the first time out."

BTW, are you implying here that laws of nature change or energy behaves differently from system to system?

There are many variables to consider when talking about vibration induced distortions.

Actually, there's very few. I'm thinking 2 or 3 on average. If the vibration controlled object was poorly designed (from a vibration controlling perspective), then another variable or 2 may come into play. Better yet, replace the poorly designed object with a superior designed object.

One is the construction of the floor itself. Some are concrete slabs and some are suspended floors which react differently but all of them transmit sound waves (vibration) created by the speakers which are commonly spiked into the floor which directly couples the vibration into the floor.

Actually, it really doesn't matter. Unless perhaps the dwelling was maybe 100 - 150 years old with wider spans between floor joists that were sagging. But even then, it would be questionable. But since a block of concrete is less easily excitable by vibrations than say a feather, a concrete slab generally is a superior sub-flooring system to a wood-based. Nevertheless, distortions induced by vibrations rising up from the floor to induce sonic harm is little more than conventional wisdom or common folklore. At the very most, any potential sonic harm floor-borne vibrations may induce would absolutely pale in comparisons to the air-borne and internally-generated vibrations.

Also, the fact that cables have microphonic effects and triboelectric effects are well known. Depending upon the design, some cables are more or less sensitive to vibration than others and some floors have a higher amplitude of vibration than others. Just because one system does not have a particular issue does mean that all systems are immune.

Well, unless the science-minded type is well-aware of all the potential distortions including the severity of each induced upon and within some of the better or more popular wire, dialectric, and connector combinations, I imagine it would be pretty hard to accurately nail down which distortion is which and which are really worth one's times to address.

I don't quite follow your logic here. Speakers vibrating a floor which in turn vibrates a cable is mechanical in nature. Then that vibration is converted to an electrical signal within the cable. It is a very small signal to be sure. But the non-linear nature of distortion is audible in many audio systems.

That's because you're assuming the inconsequential floor-borne vibrations are the culprit. But now it's my turn to not follow your logic. Distortions induced by mechanical vibrations are never converted to an electrical signal. What you're speaking of is an electrical signal's distortion (the effect) of being impacted and altered by mechanical vibrations (the cause). It is the effects of that altered signal that becomes audible. Not a mechanical vibration converted to an electrical signal.

I am not aware of any cable lifter product that claimed to reduce or even address the problem of electrostatic charge prior to the introduction of the Shunyata DFE. If you know of one please left me know what it is or was?

That's why most cable lifter mfg'ers use materials like ceramic, wood, foam, rubber, plastic, etc since those anti-static materials do not transmit electricity much like your v2's. I assume that's also why I've yet to encounter a lifter constructed of a material that conducts electricity.

Congratulations on your DIY project. Every implementation of a certain concept can be improved upon. As a manufacturer there are competing issues of cost and complexity when designing a commercial product. Good job improving our concept for your own personal use. The concept is patented to protect it from commercial production and sale.

Thanks, but based on my experience with vibration control and experiencing your Dark Field v2's performance gains, it just made sense to take matters to the next level. I seriously doubt the concept of controlling vibrations at the wire belongs exclusively to Shunyata. Enthusiasts have been lifting their cables for anti-static purposes long before Shunyata entered the market. And though attempting to control vibrations at the cable is less common, there are those that have attempted that too, and even if they didn't happen to know their product was also controlling vibrations, that should still count for something. In fact, about 5 years ago I anchored my speaker cables to the ceramic lifters using little rubber bands but with little benefit. But then again, I had less knowledge of vibration behavior then too. Moreover, I don't see verbiage on Shunyata's Dark Field web page related to controlling vibrations though I suspect they are controlling vibrations to some extent. So even though your design may be defendable by a patent, I suspect a Shunyata patent would be indefensible if they claim exclusivity for anti-static lifters and/or vibration controlling lifters.

This is largely true, although the level of vibration induced by the signal itself is quite small compared to the vibration level induced by contact with the floor. This is not an opinion. It was arrived through vibrational analysis with accelerometers which are devices that measure vibration in 3 axis.

I'm curious. If (and it is so) the floor is vibrating and if those vibrations were inducing sonic harm into the cables, how is Shunyata able to clearly distinguish which source of vibrations (i.e. floor-borne, air-borne, induced by current flow, or vibrations induced by the excited speaker at one end or the excited amplifier at the other end) are inducing the sonic harm? But if indeed floor-borne vibrations were of concern, since most rooms have carpeting and pad, wouldn't that suffice to "isolate" the almost light as a feather cable lifter and cable from any minuscule floor-borne vibrations even if they were a concern?

 

[johndoe21ro]

http://www.shunyata.com/support/559-tech-dfss-cable-system

You are correct about rigid risers not providing much isolation from the floor. Airborne vibration is much less of a problem than mechanical energy transfer from the floor. Further, if the polymer used actually absorbs vibration, then even a percentage of the airborne induced vibration is reduced.

Your last suggestion has been done already in several forms. Although it is not very practical and does little to reduce vibration in the cable.

I'd like to try your DF-SS cable isolation system. Unfortunately you're far far away from where I live and there's no SR dealer around so I guess I'll see what the future has in stall! You have some excellent products! Congrats for everything you do and keep up the good work!

 

[marty]

styrofoam cups and hockey pucks work great as well

I love the high end but I'm also a scientist. If you want to elevate cables and do it effectively and cheaply, may I suggest a good old fashioned #10 rubber stopper.
http://www.widgetco.com/10-rubber-stoppers-plugs
Its hard to beat rubber as an insulator and you can't beat the price. BTW you can also imbed toothpicks in the stopper to prevent your cable from slipping off the stopper. You can also stack them 2 or 3 high if you feel you must to elevate the cables way off the floor. (I use 2). I don't use the toothpick trick because my cleaning lady knows that if she knocks the cables off the stoppers when vacuuming, I will deport her. (No nasty letters please- lighten up) .

 

[bonzo75]

I love the high end but I'm also a scientist. If you want to elevate cables and do it effectively and cheaply, may I suggest a good old fashioned #10 rubber stopper.
http://www.widgetco.com/10-rubber-stoppers-plugs
Its hard to beat rubber as an insulator and you can't beat the price. BTW you can also imbed toothpicks in the stopper to prevent your cable from slipping off the stopper. You can also stack them 2 or 3 high if you feel you must to elevate the cables way off the floor. (I use 2). I don't use the toothpick trick because my cleaning lady knows that if she knocks the cables off the stoppers when vacuuming, I will deport her. (No nasty letters please- lighten up) .

El Chapo is coming for you, Marty

 

[stehno]

Years ago I was having a conversation with the late Brooks Berdan and he laughed when I stated if there were indeed vibrations being picked up then it should act as a guitar string when tapped?

It seems that your late friend Brooks wasn't very astute. In fact, I laughed reading your comment and even rolled my eyes.

Frankly, I'm unsure where to begin to refute such a nonsensical statement. But if you quoted Brooks accurately, I have to assume Brooks must have implied that it's a non-issue if an amp, TT, CDP, speakers, a motor, power supply, speaker cable, transistors, tubes, op-amps, etc, don't vibrate like a taut guitar string? Maybe Brooks was implying that the more taut and stressed the object is, the more efficient the flow or travel of the unwanted mechanical energy. But that should be a given to most anybody. But by no means does that imply loose or flimsy or less rigid objects don't vibrate or should not be of concern when it comes to distortions induced by vibrations.

In fact, since loose, flimsy, less stressed objects make for poor mechanical conduits the captured vibrations attempting to travel start bottlenecking there. And since those objects are not under stress, the vibrations bottlenecking in less rigid objects is usually implies that the energy is already being released then and there. Whereas, if the object was taut like a guitar string, the vibrations would continue their travels until they found something down the road more loose or flimsy to release its energy there, or find an exit path and release its energy elsewhere.

Which has the potential for inducing more distortions, a taut / rigid object that allows vibrations to travel without releasing its energy? Or a less taut less rigid object that impedes travel thereby forcing the release of its energy then and there?

I'm sure your late friend probably had some area of expertise otherwise you wouldn't have quoted him. But if he indeed made such a statement and laughed, I'd question his logic and thinking about everything he laid his hands on.

BTW, your quoting your late friend Brooks is an excellent illustration that IF somebody has developed expertise in a given area, by no means should that imply he has the foggiest what he's talking about in areas outside of his expertise. Not only do we have a tendency to think experts in a given area must also be experts in other areas, but sadly the designer / engineers also starts to think of themselves as experts in anything they delve into. But that's usually just them being narcissistic. Perhaps your late friend Brooks was like one of these? Well-known amp designer John Curl also considered himself an expert with vibrations even though his vibration "tests" were limited to his flicking a finger at the top plate of a chassis. He called this the "ding test." I suggested to Curl he should call it the "ding-a-ling test." He didn't like that.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi, CGabriel. Excellent product you have in the Dark Field v2's. For 7 years I'd been using some ceramic lifters by NoNameHiFi out of Italy that look like 6-inch tall chess pawns as my only focus was to lift my cables off the carpet as a safety measure. Primarily since some years earlier with another pair of speaker cables I did realize an audible improvement when lifting them off the carpet. In fact, I was quite surprised by the v2's gains and would heartedly recommend them to others.




Everything vibrates. But if floor-borne vibrations are not a concern and never have been, aside from being inaccurate, would it matter if I did?




I have a sneaking suspicion you don't really respect my opinion. Your subsequent statement is probably not much different than if I said to you, "Hey, great job on the v2's considering the v2's were Shunyata's first and only attempt at designing cable lifters. How lucky for you guys to get it right the first time out."

BTW, are you implying here that laws of nature change or energy behaves differently from system to system?




Actually, there's very few. I'm thinking 2 or 3 on average. If the vibration controlled object was poorly designed (from a vibration controlling perspective), then another variable or 2 may come into play. Better yet, replace the poorly designed object with a superior designed object.




Actually, it really doesn't matter. Unless perhaps the dwelling was maybe 100 - 150 years old with wider spans between floor joists that were sagging. But even then, it would be questionable. But since a block of concrete is less easily excitable by vibrations than say a feather, a concrete slab generally is a superior sub-flooring system to a wood-based. Nevertheless, distortions induced by vibrations rising up from the floor to induce sonic harm is little more than conventional wisdom or common folklore. At the very most, any potential sonic harm floor-borne vibrations may induce would absolutely pale in comparisons to the air-borne and internally-generated vibrations.




Well, unless the science-minded type is well-aware of all the potential distortions including the severity of each induced upon and within some of the better or more popular wire, dialectric, and connector combinations, I imagine it would be pretty hard to accurately nail down which distortion is which and which are really worth one's times to address.




That's because you're assuming the inconsequential floor-borne vibrations are the culprit. But now it's my turn to not follow your logic. Distortions induced by mechanical vibrations are never converted to an electrical signal. What you're speaking of is an electrical signal's distortion (the effect) of being impacted and altered by mechanical vibrations (the cause). It is the effects of that altered signal that becomes audible. Not a mechanical vibration converted to an electrical signal.




That's why most cable lifter mfg'ers use materials like ceramic, wood, foam, rubber, plastic, etc since those anti-static materials do not transmit electricity much like your v2's. I assume that's also why I've yet to encounter a lifter constructed of a material that conducts electricity.




Thanks, but based on my experience with vibration control and experiencing your Dark Field v2's performance gains, it just made sense to take matters to the next level. I seriously doubt the concept of controlling vibrations at the wire belongs exclusively to Shunyata. Enthusiasts have been lifting their cables for anti-static purposes long before Shunyata entered the market. And though attempting to control vibrations at the cable is less common, there are those that have attempted that too, and even if they didn't happen to know their product was also controlling vibrations, that should still count for something. In fact, about 5 years ago I anchored my speaker cables to the ceramic lifters using little rubber bands but with little benefit. But then again, I had less knowledge of vibration behavior then too. Moreover, I don't see verbiage on Shunyata's Dark Field web page related to controlling vibrations though I suspect they are controlling vibrations to some extent. So even though your design may be defendable by a patent, I suspect a Shunyata patent would be indefensible if they claim exclusivity for anti-static lifters and/or vibration controlling lifters.




I'm curious. If (and it is so) the floor is vibrating and if those vibrations were inducing sonic harm into the cables, how is Shunyata able to clearly distinguish which source of vibrations (i.e. floor-borne, air-borne, induced by current flow, or vibrations induced by the excited speaker at one end or the excited amplifier at the other end) are inducing the sonic harm? But if indeed floor-borne vibrations were of concern, since most rooms have carpeting and pad, wouldn't that suffice to "isolate" the almost light as a feather cable lifter and cable from any minuscule floor-borne vibrations even if they were a concern?

Stehno,
I congratulate you on the time and effort you put into the numerous and often extremely lengthy postings of your various assumptions on how isolation and resonance control works in context of audio systems in this and the Magico Stillpoints thread. You are engaging in an interesting and IMO important area of high end system performance tho you do seem to be rigorously combative at times (while initially polite) but also quite regularly aggressively disparage the understanding of other posters even that of leading industry figures who you claim are completely wrong in their understanding of how isolation control works including John Tverdik, Caelin Gabriel and John Curl.

That's all fine and part and parcel of constructive debate but so far the only outline of any explanation on your experience on your part or any other relevant qualification specific to resonance control is that you bought some inexpensive noname ceramic cable lifters from Italy, had a go at some DIY which outperformed Shunyata Dark Field V2. What ways better? What gear were you using, what's the rest of the system setup like?

You talk conceptually and theory often which is great but could you give us some explanation of your relevant qualifications or any prior learning or evidence of your more specific experiences in this and also details or pics of the system you used any other isolation and resonance control devices over the years and also give us your thoughts on what ways the various devices changed the sound in the context of your system outlining specifically what gear you were using at the time.

Most people here give some details of context to assist in explaining their position even on relatively short commentary. Given the considerable length of your treatise and scope of your assertions a bit of rigorous and open disclosure on your experience and the gear involved would be in order here.

 

[stehno]

Stehno,
I congratulate you on the time and effort you put into the numerous and often extremely lengthy postings of your various assumptions on how isolation and resonance control works in context of audio systems in this and the Magico Stillpoints thread. You are engaging in an interesting and IMO important area of high end system performance tho you do seem to be rigorously combative at times (while initially polite) but also quite regularly aggressively disparage the understanding of other posters even that of leading industry figures who you claim are completely wrong in their understanding of how isolation control works including John Tverdik, Caelin Gabriel and John Curl.

That's all fine and part and parcel of constructive debate but so far the only outline of any explanation on your experience on your part or any other relevant qualification specific to resonance control is that you bought some inexpensive noname ceramic cable lifters from Italy, had a go at some DIY which outperformed Shunyata Dark Field V2. What ways better? What gear were you using, what's the rest of the system setup like?

You talk conceptually and theory often which is great but could you give us some explanation of your relevant qualifications or any prior learning or evidence of your more specific experiences in this and also details or pics of the system you used any other isolation and resonance control devices over the years and also give us your thoughts on what ways the various devices changed the sound in the context of your system outlining specifically what gear you were using at the time.

Most people here give some details of context to assist in explaining their position even on relatively short commentary. Given the considerable length of your treatise and scope of your assertions a bit of rigorous and open disclosure on your experience and the gear involved would be in order here.

Fair enough, Tao. Well, sort of.

Without trying to sound combative or defensive, just because you say I owe anybody here a rigorous and open disclosure doesn’t make it so. The only thing I owe anybody anywhere is that I speak truthfully. I’m also under no obligation to share everything I think I know about vibrations. I've spent 13 years part time performing R&D and well over $100k focusing on electrical and especially vibrational energy. It’s my prerogative and mine alone if I choose to give away the farm, so-to-speak.

That said, and at the risk of having the hounds of hell come down on me, I’ll give you the somewhat "short" version of my perspective.

1. As you know, some concepts and beliefs were solidified in stone decades or even centuries ago. Vibration "isolation" being one of them. As you can probably see from some of the interactions, offering an alternate view of something so basic as vibration control, is probably not a whole lot different than trying to convince someone they've been wearing their underwear backwards their entire life. I try to be polite but again, we're talking supposedly “scientific fact" where even physicists spend their entire lives trying to defy basic laws of physics. IOW, things are bound to get heated real quick but I do my best to maintain a reasonable demeanor. But I will not roll over and play dead as I suspect many "experts" would prefer.

Moreover, there are plenty of well-respected industry experts who over time start to believe all the press clippings about their talents. After a while they (and their followers) start to think they are experts in any facet of audio they delve into. Some will go so far as to say, if they can’t figure it out, nobody can. And all too often we act like groupies clinging to their every word and dropping their names every chance we get. When in reality, they are playing very much in the same small sandbox as everybody else and they have no more answers to the serious problems plaguing high-end audio than anybody else.

2. My education is computer science and my background is Oracle database administration and Unix system administration. Oh, I can also now spell E-x-c-e-l. From that, it should be evident that I've no science background whatsoever, I'm not even science-minded, nor an engineer. I'm barely an armchair designer but if I have any strengths, perhaps I’m not confined to the borders of conventional science and I’m a bit of a what if? kinda’ guy. So where others can toss out "scientific facts" (that may or may not be true) rather quickly, I'm left only to rely on my experiences and hopefully logic and common sense. Of course to the science-minded types, I’m perceived as falling short of any mark of their choosing.

3. Aside from a performance-oriented company briefly mentoring me after stumbling across my first design on the web 13 years ago, I'm pretty much autodidactic. However, where that company went maybe 2 blocks down a given methodological path, which is about 2 blocks further than most, I went about 2 miles down that same path and in the past few years I went maybe another 2 miles further down that same path and frankly, what I've discovered over the years about the behaviors and similarities between electricity and especially vibrations (2 very basic energies) and especially their performance potentials continues to astonish me.

Without giving away the farm, I’ll give you just two small examples of more recent performance improvements.

a. For 14 years, various versions of my fabulous Foundation Research line conditioners (LC’s) sat on the carpet behind my humble but well-thought-out playback system. After wondering for the longest time, last fall I decided to see if these little passive and dedicated LC’s might be receptive to my extreme methods of vibration control and out of spare parts I contrived a little makeshift something. Over a period of time, I received no less than roughly 32 distinct audible improvements.

b. Last December I hosted a controversial event for 12 audiophiles with already a host of distinct audible improvements under my humble system’s belt. The event was a success, but since that time I estimate that my system experienced roughly 35 – 40 more distinct audible improvements with the latest occurring 4 days ago. And I haven’t touched a bloomin’ thing on my system since last October simply because the mechanical settling in never seems to stop when methods are taken to the extreme.

Contrast that 35 - 40 with maybe 50 - 150 distinct audible improvements the average enthusiast might receive their entire lifetime through buying and selling and various burn-ins and minor tweaks. And I consider those improvements relatively minor compared to other areas experiencing significantly more improvements. To try to qualify, I would consider each distinct audible improvement to roughly equate to one reasonably minor component upgrade you or I might experience.

4. At some level of competency, components, aside from build quality, are of little consequence to me when compared to the benefits of proper AC mgmt and especially proper vibration mgmt. Sure upgrades can most always improve performance a bit, but like a well-engineered Redbook recording vs a well-engineered high-rez recording, there’s nothing life changing by any means. My components are listed in my profile for whatever that's worth. And no I wouldn’t waste my time with an am/fm clock radio.

5. A portion of my product can be seen in my avatar.

To keep from getting too lengthy, I'll close with a few final thoughts.

1. Of the discoveries I've made regarding proper AC mgmt and especially proper vibration mgmt (translating into unimaginable performance levels), the single most important discovery I made was that extreme results can only occur from extreme efforts, never by token or half-assed efforts.

2. One such discovery that may be of interest has to do with certain behavioral similarities between electrical and mechanical energy. In some respects their behavior is so similar that I'm now convinced to a very good degree there is no such process known as electrical "burn-in". Rather I postulate a “burn-in” process must be a variation of a mechanical settling in process. I wouldn't quite stake my life on it just yet, but I might somebody else's.

3. There is but one true method of vibration control and that’s resonant energy transfer. Anything else and especially “isolation” is simply a grossly inferior version of the one true method.

4. When properly dealing with and within the basic laws of nature, like vibrations, the potential improvements are massive, they are many, they are across the entire spectrum, and they are without any negatives whatsoever. So it should be when dealing with laws of nature and staying within those confines rather than try to change them, as if anybody could improve on natural law.

5. As with perhaps any other performance-oriented industry, it's the foundation that determines a playback system's ultimate performance potential.

I may not be giving you much to hang your hat on here, but that's also my intention, especially since you essentially demanded I fully disclose what I think I know. But for what it's worth, roughly 65% of my entire system costs are dedicated solely to proper AC mgmt (proper line conditioning is but one part) and proper vibration mgmt. How's that for two categories industry "experts" still deem to be "accessories"?

BTW, I can and hope to be given the opportunity to prove Meridian's Bob Stuart is full of hot air when it comes to his and others outlandish performance claims of his soon to be released MQA format. And no I've never listened to an MQA formatted recording. Nor should I have to since MQA like other high-rez formats does Zero to reduce the universal distortions induced at our sensitive components that severely cripple their precision and accuracy via inferior AC mgmt and inferior vibration mgmt.

 

[rockitman]

^^^ Why don't you share your system specifics so we can get a better idea of where your coming from rather than you going out of your way to shoot from the hip and criticize gear/tweaks you have never used in your system and evaluated with your own ears ? Do you trust your ears or do you rely on measurements to determine what sounds best ?