Bunch of audio “experts” select their BEST products. Fun! What do you think?

Lee

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Steve,

Great seeing you in Denver!

Hey man, as far as I know Wilson does not do invite only listening sessions unless it is a press event. Perhaps this was the presser for the Yvette launch a year ago?

The rest of the time, the room was open to the general public.

The last RMAF I exhibited at had a Wilson room next door to mine. You had to have an invitation to even get into the room....

BTW, The room on the other side had Scaenas driven by Vivaldi stack. Sounded quite good, but I still liked my room better.

Most manufacturers are very nice, but there are exceptions, which you learn fairly quickly. The unfriendly ones are almost always the big brands that advertise in TAS or Stereophile. Then there are competitors that respect you and even appreciate the competition, and others that hate you. I like the Bryston guys for instance and have shared music with them before.

Then there is the room partner from hell, just like the neighbor from hell. They expect you to pay for their cartage, arrive late and leave early. Been there too.

As for rooms, most of them can be made to sound very good. I have not noticed power issues ever at any show in 15 years, but my gear does not require huge amperage either. There is usually a bass-loud spot in the room, mostly in the doorway. If you look at how few stereo stores are able to put together a good sounding system, it's little surprise that exhibitors at shows can't do it. At a typical show, I usually find about 4-6 rooms out of 150-300 that sound good.

As for reviewers, they are the kings of shows and they know it. They are not too likely to be chummy when they have a lot of turf to cover and after all, they are the judges. Some are really nice people though, that have good ears and can identify a good sound when they hear it. They of course hold back on getting too emotional, but if they show up in your room 2 or 3 times, you know that's a good thing.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

caesar

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Honestly, I have to differ here as one who goes to a lot of shows. Some observations from 14 years at RMAF and others:

1. Great gear sounds great at shows by and large. Many of the better firms either know how to so setup or hire guys like Jim Smith and Stirling Trayle to get it right.

2. Hotel power sucks like most power (I know this since I do location recordings) but a good line conditioner solves this and good people like PS Audio lend out that gear.

3. Hotel rooms have bad acoustics but you know what, that's not an excuse since setup guys are at work and many mfrs uses the same room year-in year-out and figure out what needs to be done.

4. The biggest sound problems come from using really bad gear like Scaena speakers (fortunately PS Audio hated them and moved to the much better Focal) and Ayre electronics or have really bad synergy which is sadly a bigger issue. Fundamentals matter like primarily speaker-amp pairings. How's that for honesty. :)

JAJAJAJAJAJA!!! I happen to feel the same way about Audio Research and Focal as you feel about Scaena. A lot of people feel strong dislike about Magico and Wilson. They are very polarizing brands! Interestingly, Harry Pearson thought Scaena and NOLA were 2 of the best speakers in the world, but when "Sterile" Jon Valin usurped power from HP, he called both speakers "as you like it", meaning badly colored speakers.

I have heard ARC amps sound like PURE MALODOROUS DREK every time I have heard them, with only two exceptions. Both times they sounded great - and it was ARC Ref 75 amp. Once was Scaena and once was with Nola. I think both speakers are very easy to drive and both have been designed with ARC.

By the way, I want to make sure you understand I am not laughing at you, Lee. I sincerely appreciate your point of view. Subjectivity is a funny thing.

Here are a couple of posts I wrote about 3 years ago that explain why certain brands dominate, and why most languish and slowly die. Since then, Classe has gone belly up, Raidho's founders have left to peddle cables, Technical Brain seems to be dead also, no one talks about Veloce, and the list of rooms covered 10 years ago at RMAF is nearly unrecognizable. (And interestingly, some dealers who questioned this theory are now selling the blockbuster brands instead of the more obscure ones :) ):


"....interesting thread... let's look at things a bit more holistically from an economic perspective..

There are fairly low entry costs into the high end audio industry. Any guy can assemble the stuff in his garage. capital requirements are fairly low. just build the more complex parts of the gear in someone else’s shop. if you cook up a recipe that others like, you can get “large”. And if you get large, you can open your own machine/ furniture / metal shop. if you so, you can build your own cabinets and drivers, and use it as point of quality/differentiation…

These low entry barriers have caused a proliferation of gear today to suit every taste: from highly musical stuff that conveys human emotions to highly resolving stuff that succeeds at mechanical excellence and detail resolution. There are so many turntables, dacs, speakers, amps, cables, and combinations of the above that it makes your head spin. And all these excessive choices no doubt drives away customers due to sheer confusion because there is no one to trust to help separate the wheat from the chaff. So the primary marketing strategy of successful audio firms is to get a reviewer to like your stuff. If they do, they can mention it every time they write about it...

It’s a shame, but most reviewers are like smegma (there are a few good guys, but they are rare). Most help protect the incumbents and blockbuster brands; most reviewers just follow the herd and most are too gutless to voice independent opinions.

who has the beitzim to give the magico, arc, wilson, pass, macintosh, etc., bad reviews, when in comparison smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke the blockbuster brands. So the blockbuster brands get stronger, while the smaller companies with better products are starving or scraping by. Of course, it makes sense for a dealer to carry these blockbuster brands, and it makes sense for less demanding audiophiles who are happy to have what others have so they can kibbitz about the products they have on the internet sites with those who own the same products. But not so for the customer that is looking for the ultimate sound of their choice.

Also, the reviewers take on authority mentality. they see the audiophile as some dumb f#%! that they need to give specific instructions to : "this is the best", "I would by this speaker/ dac/ amp”... This is not helpful to consumers and is actually very insulting. despite what our engineering minded friends say, audio products are experience goods. their quality can’t be judged without hearing them and comparing them. Who cares what a famous reviewer likes? the consumer’s taste will not likely match his. Without comparisons, reviewers are just marketing their favorites instead of working for the consumer. But that’s their incentive.


You touch on the bargaining power of consumers, but your comments are incomplete. Some consumers have a taste preference that they follow for years (remember the hunt for the Absolute Sound?). Sure, customers can shop around and play different dealers off against each other in order to drive price down or demand a high quality of service. But if you know what you like, you can’t really substitute. If a customer loves the Vivid Giya, the Wilson or Magico will not do.. If customer thinks ARC is inferior to CAT, he will find a way to get a CAT into your system despite the low number of dealers and paying a premium. So your purchase outlet choices as a consumer are quite limited in this small industry.

Yet, other customers frequently swap gear when they get used to one sound and think there is a sonic signature that they erroneously believe they won’t get sick of. Ever visit a site called the audio shark? They seem like a great group of guys, but swap gear like Wilt Chamberlain swaps girlfriends because of misunderstanding a basic psychological concept of habituation/ economic concept of declining marginal utility. They get all hot about some piece of gear in the beginning of a thread, imagining how that piece of gear will bring them bliss. They get their hands on it and are all euphoric about for a few weeks. Yet only after few months of living with it they are dreaming about the bliss of the new piece of gear. Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with approaching the hobby this way. Just another segment and different goals, who may demand a deal or a deep discount.

Sure, the industry growth seems to have slowed down for a variety of reasons. But with a million things completing for our attention, so has pretty much everything else. Baseball world series ratings are at an all time low also. but the high end audio industry has adjusted by raising prices."

And...


"First let me say that I am not talking about any individual’s taste in gear. To me, whatever people do in their personal life, including what kinds of sex, art, sports, or audio they enjoy is irrelevant as long as no one is hurting anyone else. I am sure you and those who own those other blockbuster brands have very fine systems. And I have heard some blockbuster brands sound fabulous in some systems and sound atrocious in others. In the end, achieving happiness is a moral goal, and as long as having great music in your life makes you a better doctor, lawyer, businessman, engineer, or whatever people do, is all that matters.

Yet, on a micro level, doesn't it make you wonder why certain people choose certain brands, and why there is a clump of very popular blockbuster brands mentioned above exists? I don’t have any industry sales stats, but using common sense, it’s probably a safe bet to apply the 80/20 rule and assume that those popular brands get most of the sales.

With so many choices, in the so-called “golden age” of audio, why are there just a select few brands extolled by the media, carried by most dealers, and purchased by customers. First, there is no engineering/ hard sciences answer. There are few “objective” claims to high quality, and audio customers disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality. And sure, there is a superficial answer….

But those of us with a background in social psychology and behavioral economics like to scratch beneath the surface and try to understand human behavior... How many guys that bought the Magico or Wilson also seriously auditioned the Vivid Giya? How many Audio Research buyers seriously auditioned CAT? Many of those who have are blown away by how much better CAT is than ARC… And how many folks would be willing to admit they can live with either brand (because to them the differences are minor) but chose the more popular brand so they can start a “my system” thread on audiogon or here, and socially relate to more people. If you start talking about CAT or Vivid, people will not engage with you on the same level as with a more popular brand. Start talking about Wilson or Pass, and people have an opinion, and you are talking about it for years while getting thousands of hits in your thread, vs. taking about a less popular brand and ending your conversation in a week or 2, and having your thread die…
Human nature is very interesting. There is a big social aspect to this hobby. Talking about gear is similar to re-experiencing it. (How many times do people re-tell great vacation stories, even after many years?) Based on the initial chatter and buzz, audiophiles can go to dealers and hear a product. Many will buy it and start yapping about it to their friends and online…And it’s just human nature to yap about a popular product than a more obscure one, which may just absolutely kick the popular product’s ass in every way possible. But sadly, many folks on the forums only talk about the popular products because they get extra enjoyment of discussing shared experiences of products they own or are familiar with. So many ARC fans are ARC fans only because others are ARC fans. The technical term for this phenomenon is “social proof”, but such is human nature. Whether people realize it or on, Popularity happens to be a HUGE signal for quality in our hobby.

Also, interestingly, research shows that consumers of obscure products appreciate those products less than owners of popular products. The more obscure the product, the less likely it is to be appreciated. In effect, what results is a natural monopoly of popular, yet not necessarily “best” products. People’s tastes tend to converge on a select few blockbuster products rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings.

And the internet/ social media, of course, amplifies all of this…

But social proof is just one influence force acting on us. There are others even stronger. With so many overwhelming choices and extremely high prices, it sure hurts a lot if you go with the wrong piece. In fact it hurts a lot more to lose a dollar than to gain a dollar. (It’s just human nature and it affects famous investors, famous athletes, audiophiles, and pretty much everyone else. For example, it has been proven that people sell winning stocks too early but hold on to losers for a long time in fear of experiencing a loss.) So why not buy a product that many others like and is favorably thought of by professional reviewers/ audio intellectuals? Surely, one cannot be too wrong and not experience that painful loss.

People can claim to be not be swayed by influences and making deeply personal choices. But then you look at the most popular brands like Wilson, Magico, Macintosh, etc., and you have to ask: Not Swayed? Right!!! …

By looking at the popular brands, it clearly shows most guys in this hobby are herd thinkers (both audiophiles, dealers, and reviewers). Bring it up and they deny it. They use their ears, they say. But they are operating from a set of biases they are not even aware of. But then why is this clump of Magico, Wilson, ARC, Macintosh, etc., getting most of the sales and reviews while virtually everyone else is starving (or keeping a second job)? How many of those low selling brands sell just a single unit a year, usually to their mother?

It’s no coincidence that people’s tastes converge on select few brands rather than be dispersed across the assortment of available offerings. With so many different flavors of sonic signatures in individual components, one can build so many systems to create a similar sound and excellent sound. Guys who run audio magazines are assured of an audience and ad sales by covering and hoarding around the popular brands. Dealers are assured of customers walking into their shops. Audiophiles hoard around these popular “Lady Gagas” and “Peyton Mannings” and the result is a strong concentration of sales for the blockbuster brands that promise familiar and repeatable experiences in an uncertain market.

Now with the economic and social psychology theory and ideas in place, the more demanding audiophiles check out not just the popular brands, but check every nook and cranny to find the less popular brands that frequently outperform the blockbusters."
 

Al M.

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Great observations, Caesar, which poke holes into the typical audiophile bubble with a lot of common sense. A breath of fresh air.

Two points though:

1. Magico and their engineering is special. While their speakers can sound atrocious, often that is because they are ruthlessly revealing of problems upstream in the system or of problems with speaker/room interface. Yet once you get them right, they can be incredible speakers. Madfloyd's M Project, driven by CAT amps, now sound fantastic in his system -- also musically engaging and with supremely natural timbre -- and can do things that I haven't heard yet from other speakers. However, it was not all smooth sailing for him to get there. Also the Magico Mini II speakers in Peter A.'s system sound really great. -- I am not impressed by their entry level speakers though, but perhaps the audition was suboptimal too.

2. I have very obscure amps that nobody has ever heard of; they are 26 years old (even though heavily modified). The external power supplies come from a company, BorderPatrol, which is also not well known. My speakers, Reference 3A, are also not well known among the typical audiophile, but the brand must be doing something right since they have been around for decades (incredible price/performance ratio). Nonetheless, my system thread appears to be well-read, proving that you don't need to stick to the 'popular' brands to attract some interest (I couldn't care less about having 'big name' stuff). But then, I have the privilege to have audiophile friends who regularly come over and rave about the sound. That does help ;).
 

Rodney Gold

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Entertaining read..being an audiophile is complicated :)
 

Barry2013

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I love the new PS Audio gear. The Chicago PS/Scaena did win some Best Of awards but the sound was genuinely atrocious. I can only suspect some reviewers were overly impressed with the cost of the gear in the room or had severe hearing loss.

Again, just calling it as I see it but I will tell you I had a lot of friends and reviewers who I know have good ears tell me that they thought the same thing at that show.

Hi Lee
Just a quick heads up to say that the November issue of HiFi Plus has a review by your colleague Chris Martens of the PS Audio DS Memory Player which you might want to look out for.I've never met him but have always found his reviews very reliable.
 

Barry2013

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A good post Caesar.
IMHO a couple important points were absent which are important consumer considerations namely how well a particular component will hold its value and servicing availability. The former is certainly affected by reviews and it is an understandable consideration for consumers even if its performance isn't quite up to a less well reviewd product while the latter is obviously important too for similar reasons.
 

LL21

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I recognize the power of marketing and the influence on consumer behavior it has. It absolutely can make the 'technically inferior product' win...Beta vs VHS is a great example where clearly something besides tech (marketing, strategy, distribution) ended up winning the day for VHS when everyone knew (even then) that Beta was the superior format.

HOWEVER, thinking about Wilson Audio which has been mentioned here as an example of that 'group sway thing'...i have to say in my own persona experience there are a number of bonafide strengths of Wilson (and also other manufacturers) which go beyond marketing:

1. Way, way, WAY back in the day when almost nobody was willing to go all-out, a new start up David Wilson went ahead and blew everyone's minds alongside Arnie Nudell and built the WAMM which stood alongside the Infinity IRS V. He took a huge gamble, no doubt sweated a ton financially and literally in the workshop to produce this thing. And he captured the imagination of audiophiles globally.

Then he created the X1/Grand SLAMM which (even today) still stands as one of the few mega speakers which you can make a gazillion adjustments to for room, system, personal preference. Again, insanely expense at that time...but it delivered the goods.

2. THEN, he decided to MANDATE that every speaker requires dealers to go for training on installation and EVERY one of these speakers comes with professional installation because of its many setup variables and flexibility. That is incredibly time consuming and probably involves financial investment as well in terms of time and aggravation. It requires a LOT of control to ensure consistency of installation across literally the globe. And this in a world (1980s) when there was no internet, fax, etc for instant easy cheap communication.

But he does it anyway.

3. I have a 20+ year old set of SLAMMS, and I am still being extremely well looked after by both the Wilson distributor and the Wilson dealer...that is because of the quality of both of these fine firms. But I also know (because they have told me)...Wilson also demands of them that they look after all their customers like this with respect to installation, care, etc

So we take these traits...and continue day in and day out to push them for 30 years...that's a lot of long hours to ensure financial stability, product stability, network stability...and we then see a proliferation of products. Many are loved...others not so much.

But the consumer sees a company built to last, a network of support that is proliferate and stable...and a product that typically costs more than many cars...and in some case, houses...and they have trust in the company.

Another way of saying that some of the 'blue chip/mainstay names' are not all just marketing...and in fact have a LOT of substance as a BUSINESS that is part and parcel of buying into a particular audio technology. I personally have considered investing car sums into electronics and backed off when i realized i had no way to fix the unit if something went wrong without shipping it blind to a manufacturer halfway across the world. And that scared me off, particularly when the manufacturer's responses were 'so so' when i inquired about service, repairs, etc.
 

Al M.

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A good post Caesar.
IMHO a couple important points were absent which are important consumer considerations namely how well a particular component will hold its value and servicing availability.

The former is irrelevant to me, the latter I find important indeed. It is one of the considerations in my decision to audition Octave tube amps in the near future. Since recently they are represented by Goodwin's High End (quasi around the corner from me), and Octave is a German brand that has been around for decades with probably a sizable infrastructure of support (as an icing on the cake, the amps have sophisticated protection circuitry that, for example, shuts the amp off when a tube shorts).

For my current tube amps, fortunately I have an expert in Connecticut who can take care of them.
 

LL21

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The former is irrelevant to me, the latter I find important indeed. It is one of the considerations in my decision to audition Octave tube amps in the near future. Since recently they are represented by Goodwin's High End, and Octave is a German brand that has been around for decades with probably a sizable infrastructure of support (as an icing on the cake, the amps have sophisticated protection circuitry that, for example, shuts the amp off when a tube shorts).

yes, my point exactly. Totally agree, Al M.
 

microstrip

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(...) I have heard ARC amps sound like PURE MALODOROUS DREK every time I have heard them, with only two exceptions. Both times they sounded great - and it was ARC Ref 75 amp. Once was Scaena and once was with Nola. I think both speakers are very easy to drive and both have been designed with ARC.
(...)

Caesar,

You must be an unlucky person - or perhaps someone who listened very few times to ARC, I can not guess. I have listened to ARC sounding systematically good tens of times - not counting the many thousands of days it played great in my system and friends systems. I could fill a post ten times longer than yours just enumerating the systems I listened to it sounding excellent. And your inference about "very easy to drive" is meaningless - ARC is just known to design tube amplifiers that manage to supply adequate current, driving adequately some speakers that are not considered easy loads.

I disagree with most of your views and I find your "human analysis" a complete failure, extremely narrow minded. In general audiophiles are much better people than you think. Most of them are knowledgeable people, open minded and are significantly above the level of internet and few magazines you read and refer. IMHO you are picking a small sample that does not represent the population and does not drive the high-end industry.
 

Lee

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Hi Lee
Just a quick heads up to say that the November issue of HiFi Plus has a review by your colleague Chris Martens of the PS Audio DS Memory Player which you might want to look out for.I've never met him but have always found his reviews very reliable.

Thanks Barry, I will check it out.

Caesar, I appreciate your lengthy comments. I have a very packed day but I will sit down and address your points (some of which I agree with) from my perspective when I have more time.
 

Empirical Audio

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JAJAJAJAJAJA!!!There are fairly low entry costs into the high end audio industry. Any guy can assemble the stuff in his garage. capital requirements are fairly low. just build the more complex parts of the gear in someone else’s shop. if you cook up a recipe that others like, you can get “large”. And if you get large, you can open your own machine/ furniture / metal shop. if you so, you can build your own cabinets and drivers, and use it as point of quality/differentiation…

These low entry barriers have caused a proliferation of gear today to suit every taste: from highly musical stuff that conveys human emotions to highly resolving stuff that succeeds at mechanical excellence and detail resolution. There are so many turntables, dacs, speakers, amps, cables, and combinations of the above that it makes your head spin. And all these excessive choices no doubt drives away customers due to sheer confusion because there is no one to trust to help separate the wheat from the chaff. So the primary marketing strategy of successful audio firms is to get a reviewer to like your stuff. If they do, they can mention it every time they write about it...

Brilliant post. One of the best I've seen in years.

Seems like high-end audio is one of the few fields where you can compete with complete Sh!t and know nothing about the physics. It's a shame. This is why I'm selling my cable company.

It’s a shame, but most reviewers are like smegma (there are a few good guys, but they are rare). Most help protect the incumbents and blockbuster brands; most reviewers just follow the herd and most are too gutless to voice independent opinions.

How did you get so smart?

who has the beitzim to give the magico, arc, wilson, pass, macintosh, etc., bad reviews, when in comparison smaller, less talked about companies frequently smoke the blockbuster brands. So the blockbuster brands get stronger, while the smaller companies with better products are starving or scraping by. Of course, it makes sense for a dealer to carry these blockbuster brands, and it makes sense for less demanding audiophiles who are happy to have what others have so they can kibbitz about the products they have on the internet sites with those who own the same products. But not so for the customer that is looking for the ultimate sound of their choice.

The blockbusters have marketing departments and budgets. They can buy reviews and front pages.

Also, the reviewers take on authority mentality. they see the audiophile as some dumb f#%! that they need to give specific instructions to : "this is the best", "I would by this speaker/ dac/ amp”... This is not helpful to consumers and is actually very insulting. despite what our engineering minded friends say, audio products are experience goods. their quality can’t be judged without hearing them and comparing them. Who cares what a famous reviewer likes? the consumer’s taste will not likely match his. Without comparisons, reviewers are just marketing their favorites instead of working for the consumer. But that’s their incentive.

Some are motivated by money, others by ego and yet others (very few) by a goal of being objective as possible. Most have huge egos, like many designers in the biz. Like most people, their position of power corrupts them eventually.

"First let me say that I am not talking about any individual’s taste in gear. To me, whatever people do in their personal life, including what kinds of sex, art, sports, or audio they enjoy is irrelevant as long as no one is hurting anyone else. I am sure you and those who own those other blockbuster brands have very fine systems. And I have heard some blockbuster brands sound fabulous in some systems and sound atrocious in others. In the end, achieving happiness is a moral goal, and as long as having great music in your life makes you a better doctor, lawyer, businessman, engineer, or whatever people do, is all that matters.

The concept of a "system" is lost on many consumers. They get lost in RFI and ground-loops and tweaks... There are synergies, mostly because of imperfect characteristics of different components. If all components had 0 ohm output impedance and infinite sensitivity on inputs and 100% efficiency at all frequencies and perfect impulse response etc.., all components would work the same together. Then it would be the inner designs and parts that made the difference in SQ. The problem is that we have both synergy and inner design/implementations that change SQ. Too much for consumers to absorb or understand. You have to be an engineer. This is exactly why an engineer is a good expert to go to in this hobby.

Yet, on a micro level, doesn't it make you wonder why certain people choose certain brands, and why there is a clump of very popular blockbuster brands mentioned above exists? I don’t have any industry sales stats, but using common sense, it’s probably a safe bet to apply the 80/20 rule and assume that those popular brands get most of the sales.

With so many choices, in the so-called “golden age” of audio, why are there just a select few brands extolled by the media, carried by most dealers, and purchased by customers. First, there is no engineering/ hard sciences answer. There are few “objective” claims to high quality, and audio customers disagree on what is good, so their choices reflect tastes, not verifiable differences in quality. And sure, there is a superficial answer….

They are typical large US businesses that sell to distributors that sell to retailers. Small companies cannot afford to do this because they don't have the scratch to take advantage of economies of scale. They don't go into hock to stay in business. This is also why these large companies disappear after a few years. They operate at high expense on borrowed money. They behave like they are some kind of high-tech start-up. The bank eventually eats it when they go belly up. Many small businesses work on a cash basis. They don't develop the next product until they make enough money on the current product. They sell everything on the website direct.

But those of us with a background in social psychology and behavioral economics like to scratch beneath the surface and try to understand human behavior... How many guys that bought the Magico or Wilson also seriously auditioned the Vivid Giya? How many Audio Research buyers seriously auditioned CAT? Many of those who have are blown away by how much better CAT is than ARC… And how many folks would be willing to admit they can live with either brand (because to them the differences are minor) but chose the more popular brand so they can start a “my system” thread on audiogon or here, and socially relate to more people. If you start talking about CAT or Vivid, people will not engage with you on the same level as with a more popular brand. Start talking about Wilson or Pass, and people have an opinion, and you are talking about it for years while getting thousands of hits in your thread, vs. taking about a less popular brand and ending your conversation in a week or 2, and having your thread die…
Human nature is very interesting. There is a big social aspect to this hobby. Talking about gear is similar to re-experiencing it. (How many times do people re-tell great vacation stories, even after many years?) Based on the initial chatter and buzz, audiophiles can go to dealers and hear a product. Many will buy it and start yapping about it to their friends and online…And it’s just human nature to yap about a popular product than a more obscure one, which may just absolutely kick the popular product’s ass in every way possible. But sadly, many folks on the forums only talk about the popular products because they get extra enjoyment of discussing shared experiences of products they own or are familiar with. So many ARC fans are ARC fans only because others are ARC fans. The technical term for this phenomenon is “social proof”, but such is human nature. Whether people realize it or on, Popularity happens to be a HUGE signal for quality in our hobby.

A lot of this is bragging rights and entry into the tribe of owners of that product. The behavior depends a lot on the buyers wealth and free time. If he is a plumber, every penny counts and getting a good deal on a giant-killer is the goal. If they are the top 1%, they just walk into the high-end salon and the employee wines and dines them and sells them the most expensive gear in the shop. The people in-between are the ones that have some disposable income and are truly into the music and emotional experience it provides. Some of these audiophiles are technical, some are not.

Measurement addicts are another PIA that I deal with on the web constantly. I'm a big believer in making the measurements and using them to characterize the SQ where possible. It's unfortunate that the state of characterization by measurements is still so primitive with audio components, particularly analog measurements, but even digital measurements like jitter. Stereo is a complex topic and components are still being characterized with simple, outdated measurements like steady-state frequency response or a single jitter number. Not that this is unimportant, but the biggest flaws in most gear have to do with dynamic response, the behavior with rapidly changing signals. There are basically no measurements that adequately characterize this. Jitter needs to be characterized by direct measurement, not through a DAC using a spectrum analyzer. Jitter should be characterized as a time distribution, not a number. You would think that the leaders in this industry, like John Atkinson might motivate the instrument manufacturers to add measurements that address these holes. This would be a MAJOR contribution to the industry.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

rblnr

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I love the new PS Audio gear. The Chicago PS/Scaena did win some Best Of awards but the sound was genuinely atrocious. I can only suspect some reviewers were overly impressed with the cost of the gear in the room or had severe hearing loss.

Again, just calling it as I see it but I will tell you I had a lot of friends and reviewers who I know have good ears tell me that they thought the same thing at that show.

There were many, many FAR more expensive rooms so must have been severe hearing loss :) including the frequent best of show folks, a group that has included Valin btw for what that’s worth. I reviewed for years and know that landscape well. As noted with PS and now Valin with a later post, you have incorrect information that you are relaying here.

Back to topic: agreed with all who find the list dubious w/o any indication of methodology of how choices were made.
 

NorthStar

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Most intelligent folks understand that consulting a single expert to help out with audio systems is a risky proposition to one’s audio happiness. But when you take a bunch of experienced folks and compile / average what they think, their observations can be quite insightful.

This is exactly what we have here: Awards chosen by “representatives of “the world’s leading HiFi press publications.”
Read more at stereophile toward the bottom of the post.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/rmaf-2016-departures-and-arrivals#aIjUmOlLcwFyEVQi.97

http://www.stereophile.com/content/rmaf-2016-departures-and-arrivals#aIjUmOlLcwFyEVQi.97

Some interesting thoughts and observations based on what these elites think:

- These guys love dcs, but Chord DAVE is the king of DACs. Berkeley Ref, marketed so hard by the Computer Audiophile and TAS’s Harley not even nominated
- No “pure” dsd DACs even mentioned (Lampi, PS Audio, nagra, EMM, Playback, etc)
- Air force kicks ass over Kronos
- Gryphon integrated? Maybe it's as good as they say, but it’s not even sold in the US!?! What's up with that?
- Amplifiers: ayre kicks pass’s ass; pass not even on the list !???! neither is the old mark levinson
- B&W 800 D3 kicks magico s3 butt (maybe wolf should reach out to more reviewers)
- Wilson Alexx is the high end speaker king – how can one go wrong recommending Wilson? Haven’t seen any used Alexx on the used market, so owners like it also
- Severely analytical Senn 800 is king of headphones?!
- Chord Mojo is king headphone amp; Pass labs makes the headphones amp list, not amp list????
- Nordost ac cables?!
- No transparent or MIT signal cables?
- Audioquest Niagara beats shunyata triton ?!
- MQA best innovation

What do you guys think?

Those are all true audio experts; all them audio products they recommend have been tested, listened to, and they lived with them too. It simplifies life, it saves us the time. Without them our audio life would most likely be more complicated and time consuming.
They do us a great favor. That's what I think. ...A truly great bunch.
 

kach22i

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JAJAJAJAJAJA!!! I happen to feel the same way about Audio Research and Focal as you feel about Scaena. .................

Now with the economic and social psychology theory and ideas in place, the more demanding audiophiles check out not just the popular brands, but check every nook and cranny to find the less popular brands that frequently outperform the blockbusters."
One of the best posts I have ever read from you caesar, lots of good points.

FYI: Audio Research has broken out of their polite and sometimes lackluster shell a bit with a new KT150 tube based amp, but it's like 60K.

I've heard AR with Magnepan's, always a treat in my opinion.

When I get some funds together I will be check out AR's top loading CD players, I just want a top loader in hopes of avoiding drawer issues down the road.

In general, AR does not move me, but it can be made to move when matched up correctly.

Back on topic, I think one reason boutique manufactures get slighted is that one minor flaw that could take a year or two to show up could force them out of business - it's happened more than once.

Now the reviewer has staked their reputation on a company with no legs, and you are judged by the company you keep. And where are those advertising dollars going to come from, are you running a business or aren't you?

Sadly this is how things were, I think the Internet and direct purchasing may have changed things but the Internet can be brutal as well. Not standing by your product and the whole world will know you have supplier or credit issues.

EDIT:
One of the things I noticed in those lists linked to is that CD players (source) are usually listed first.

Why is it I cannot find many CD player topics in this forum?

Has everyone gone to streaming and their computer servers?
 
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Al M.

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EDIT:
One of the things I noticed in those lists linked to is that CD players (source) are usually listed first.

Why is it I cannot find many CD player topics in this forum?

Has everyone gone to streaming and their computer servers?

Seems so, even though lately I have seen a shift in tone on this forum, from dogmatic file fundamentalism to the idea that transports might have merit after all -- at least some people here are now more vocal in entertaining that idea.

In any case, I asked my dealer about my excellent CD transport (Simaudio Moon 260 DT), how the future of that was and availability of parts etc. He said no worry, he had been to Simaudio Moon's factory in Canada and they ship entire series of large pallets of those things to Europe and Russia, for example. In those parts of the world they haven't yet gone all out on files and streaming as high-end customers seem to have in the US.

From my experience, a good transport is hard to beat. If I'll ever go computer audio *), I'll invest in it heavily, with a top-range dedicated server rather than just a computer.

__________________

*) no current plans, I still have much bigger fish to fry when it comes to my system
 

Al M.

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One of the best posts I have ever read from you caesar, lots of good points.

FYI: Audio Research has broken out of their polite and sometimes lackluster shell a bit with a new KT150 tube based amp, but it's like 60K.

I've heard AR with Magnepan's, always a treat in my opinion.

When I get some funds together I will be check out AR's top loading CD players, I just want a top loader in hopes of avoiding drawer issues down the road.

In general, AR does not move me, but it can be made to move when matched up correctly.

Haven't heard much AR, but like others and probably you as well, I took Caesar's post less in terms of specific brand bashing (have heard Wilson sound great too, and have strongly defended Magico here), but more from the side of general observations about the state of the high-end, the mindset of many audiophiles and about brand "cult"; not that the latter doesn't exist elsewhere, see cars or fashion, for example.

Caesar's post has clearly struck a nerve here, formulating well what a number of people seem to be thinking. There appears to be more agreement that overall it has merit, than disagreement.
 

Argonaut

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Haven't heard much AR, but like others and probably you as well, I took Caesar's post less in terms of specific brand bashing (have heard Wilson sound great too, and have strongly defended Magico here), but more from the side of general observations about the state of the high-end, the mindset of many audiophiles and about brand "cult"; not that the latter doesn't exist elsewhere, see cars or fashion, for example.

Caesar's post has clearly struck a nerve here, formulating well what a number of people seem to be thinking. There appears to be more agreement that overall it has merit, than disagreement.


Really !!! I kinda detected a certain level of barely disguised personal angst against Audio Research, making reference to that particular company only the eleven times.

You must have missed this part.....

" JAJAJAJAJAJA!!! I happen to feel the same way about Audio Research and Focal as you feel about Scaena"

"I have heard ARC amps sound like PURE MALODOROUS DREK every time I have heard them, with only two exceptions. Both times they sounded great - and it was ARC Ref 75 amp. Once was Scaena and once was with Nola. I think both speakers are very easy to drive and both have been designed with ARC "
 

Al M.

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Really !!! I kinda detected a certain level of barely disguised personal angst against Audio Research, making reference to that particular company only the eleven times.

You must have missed this part.....

" JAJAJAJAJAJA!!! I happen to feel the same way about Audio Research and Focal as you feel about Scaena"

"I have heard ARC amps sound like PURE MALODOROUS DREK every time I have heard them, with only two exceptions. Both times they sounded great - and it was ARC Ref 75 amp. Once was Scaena and once was with Nola. I think both speakers are very easy to drive and both have been designed with ARC "

No disagreement here. But I was not talking about Caesar's personal angst (also about Magico which he seems to have very little experience with), but about what I and apparently others too interpreted the main message of the post to be.
 

caesar

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Looks like ARC fans are really upset here...to make them feel better, I have heard an excellent Wilson alexia system using some arc preamp (too many reference ones to keep track of in the last 5 years) and big d'agostino monoblocks. And as Al mentioned, the latest several generations of Magico sound sublime with CAT. I have no doubt that no other tube amp can hold a candle to the CAT - Magico combination. But one needs to have the curiosity, self-confidence, and strength to step away from the herd and try that combination. Those that have are richly rewarded.


But, isn't it part and parcel of the audiophile hobby culture to bash each other's favorite brands? Led by elites who set the example for our culture, such as "sterile" Jon valin, where the stuff he imagines as "real" in his mind sounds "real and transparent to source" to him, while the stuff he doesn't like is badly cloured :) (ok, he calls it as-you- like-it)...

and then Sterile Jon meets a guy like "great" peter breuninger , and his own confident feelings about his own imagination of "real", in a dark audio room and they want to beat he shitz out of each other... Would have broken a couple of beer bottles, and handed one to great peter and one to Sterile Jon, and would have gotten my camera rolling . :) juuuust kidding!!!

Kidding aside, the latest generation of audio equipment products, just like other subjective, creative entertainment, and art are not really "products. Instead, they are experiences. And these are the types of experiences that engender extremely strong emotions.


Yet to make sense of these experiences, reviews - both from (ethical) professionals and from experienced amateurs, along with word-of-mouth comments from casual fans play a big part in marketing. But these subjective descriptions reveal incentives and popular subjective tastes, not objectively verifiable differences in quality!

And I believe this is generally the way of the world right now . Superstar brands - and the experiences they help provide- is what it's all about. Lebron, steph curry, and Kevin Durant in the NBA. Superhero movie and Star Wars franchises in Hollywood; Hollywood competitors are working to create its own franchises like sex in the city, house of cards, shameless....Crosby, ovechkin, and Kane in hockey....Domingo and Bocelli in the opera world.... lady Gaga and jay z....Magico, Wilson, arc, and macintosh in high end audio.

Superstars draw the fans and are covered by the media. Regular people have a taste for these "winners" and spend $$$ on them!!! People like to discuss them instead of the obscure brands. Reviewers can make a safe choice covering them while assuring they get the next model in the house...Yet not everyone agrees that superstars are the best .... this is not going away...
 

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