Bernie Grundman tells it like it is----great video---lots to unpack

[Mike Lavigne]

saw this 2 hour and 25 minute video (it flies by ) and felt it needed to be posted. put it on the MoFi thread then Ron suggested it needed it's own thread as it covers lots of subjects.

especially 1:17 to 1:27 gets into analog and digital and the effects. speaks strongly to my preference for native digital files as preferred. at 1:40 Chad and Bernie talk about the Classic Led Zep box set (that Bernie mastered).....

this is like a refrigerator full of perfect comfort food. come back to it when you are hungry. it will satisfy.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you very much, Mike!

Bernie discusses, among other important topics, that digital sampling inadequately captures the high frequencies of the audio spectrum, and that digital reproduction in the high frequency range sounds clear, but that this is because information is lost.

Whether one disagrees or agrees with Bernie’s views, Bernie is undeniably an extremely authoritative source with vast experience, if not unparalleled experience, on these matters.

I would like to post the transcript of the several minutes of excerpt Mike highlights. But I don’t see a transcript under this particular YouTube video. Does anyone know how to display the transcript of the dialogue of this YouTube video, so we can see easily, and then discuss, Bernie’s verbatim statements?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

"it ain't the Beatles!"

Chad talking about a big deal he is going to announce soon. this was after he mentioned the Beatles, Steely Dan, Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd.....as the most requested re-issue groups.....and how rights holder politics are very challenging......and he keeps pushing anyway.

 

[ddk]

Thank you very much, Mike!

Bernie discusses, among other important topics, that digital sampling inadequately captures the high frequencies of the audio spectrum, and that digital reproduction in the high frequency range sounds clear, but that this is because information is lost.

Whether one disagrees or agrees with Bernie’s views, Bernie is undeniably an extremely authoritative source with vast experience, if not unparalleled experience, on these matters.

I would like to post the transcript of the several minutes of excerpt Mike highlights. But I don’t see a transcript under this particular YouTube video. Does anyone know how to display the transcript of the dialogue of this YouTube video, so we can see easily, and then discuss, Bernie’s verbatim statements?

I hear echos of my complaints regarding streaming from Bernie now if Chad would stop with his horrible 180/200g virgin crap we might have a really great vinyl again!

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I hear echos of my complaints regarding streaming from Bernie now if Chad would stop with his horrible 180/200g virgin crap we might have a really great vinyl again!

david

streaming can be variations of enjoyable.....mostly a recording and performance question (like always that is most important). native files streamed can be outstanding.....and many times are. but processing does intrude. there are many many native files to enjoy. and lots of great music. if you are a classical fan there is just so much to enjoy.

my opinion is you cannot paint streaming with a broad brush.....OTOH some do.

 

[microstrip]

Thank you very much, Mike!

Bernie discusses, among other important topics, that digital sampling inadequately captures the high frequencies of the audio spectrum, and that digital reproduction in the high frequency range sounds clear, but that this is because information is lost.

Can you point at what time in the video this is discussed? Thanks!

 

[Iving]

I would like to post the transcript of the several minutes of excerpt Mike highlights. But I don’t see a transcript under this particular YouTube video. Does anyone know how to display the transcript of the dialogue of this YouTube video, so we can see easily, and then discuss, Bernie’s verbatim statements?

Can't do that Ron; all the same, this may help for dipping in - Language my own, from my own notes - I think it's on beam - Captures gist anyway - Apologies any minor deviations / Timings approx.

00.00.00 BG: Trust your ears / Music is a complex signal (defies bench measurement) / Everything matters [later says we [mastering engineers] listen to wire when he laments AES/EBU for D-D transmission as it carries both channels AND clock] / At work BG needs a neutral system but at home has something more "hypey" / Talks about emotion and connection and how mastering facilitates those aspects

00:10:40 Importance of earliest generation (tape source) / Difference between accurate and "clean" being tied to first/early generation and EQ to make something you could like more / No perfect digital copy / RKS says the earlier the generation the closer to how the artist intended (because that is what was passed)

00:13:15 BG: Likes that he stays in audiophile market (doing reissues) / Doesn't like Loudness and pandering to customers for Loudness / Loudness irritates

00:14:40 CK talking about DR / BG talking about discs i.e. vinyl records: complex signal + obstacle course for stylus + loud enough to get above noise floor for vinyl + speed at rim vs. speed at label therefore "clearer" at edge

00:23:10 BG: Younger people listening to vinyl - demands attention - involvement - listen and do nothing else at same time

00:24:00 Prefer analogue copy of tape or digital copy to work with? BG answers firmly that *analogue* tape has greater longevity / Careful storage important / Tapes get wear by repeated play / Many 50s tapes are in great condition

00:28:25 BG can repair analogue tapes with alt. CD material

00:32:00 Labels have not been looking after tapes / Not thinking of posterity

00:35:40 Quality of press in recent years - Vinyl sellers seeing returns as acceptable price of volume business

00:36:20 Controversy BG involvement in analogue reissue of 'Thriller'

00:39:30 Discussion about getting hold of original tapes

00:45:35 Extraordinary condition of KOB tape [in mid-1990s] - no splices

00:55:45 Mastering mojo variable - one day sounds great - the next maybe not - not always understanding why

01:04:00 Talking about "Original Master Recording" and what that means / BG repeats generational copies will never be as "clean" / VMP copying an analogue tape still leaves possibility of AAA

01:10:00 CK talking about comparing AP issues with originals [analogue-era 1st issues]

01:13:26 CK: "There's only one original ... a tape copy - or worse - a *digital* tape copy"

01:19:00 BG on digital - low level - how ambience is lost / digital permeates / makes everything sound the same / "disease" [gets smile from CK]

01:21:45 RKS: Working with PCM not DSD / CK: We're on 4 DSD / BG: With DSD things go bad / 44.1 16 bits good / It is [iterative] *processing* that does the damage with digital / Repeats digital problem of revealing ambience and high end info / Questions credentials of 192 downloads

01:27:20 BG: A straight [flat] digital copy will not sound as good / Here is where BG talks about AES/EBU wrt jitter etc inc. re-clocking

01:35:00 Discussion quality pf press / CK "shitty pressing plant" [btw heard CK use f word twice in whole broadcast] / deleterious effect of polishing or de-horning on SQ / Quieter but inferior

01:39:20 SRX / Quiet vinyl

01:40:35 Led Zeppelin on Classic Records from original tapes / BG: Not much to do / "Very good recordings"

01:47:50 CK is coming out with big announcements in 2 weeks then another one after a month - "not Beatles"

01:59:10 DSD audible on a home stereo - generations can be heard [implicit that one generation is a delta]

My own minor remarks

Michael 45 was pretty quiet - good "Chair"
RKS didn't get a lot of air time - respectful to BG
BG spoke a lot - but you wanted to listen - pure experience
CK loudmouth somewhat off-putting - over-passionate - sales guy

 

[Iving]

Can you point at what time in the video this is discussed? Thanks!

About 1:19:00 and 1:21:45

 

[Ron Resnick]

Can you point at what time in the video this is discussed? Thanks!

Start where Mike suggested — around 1hour : 17 minutes.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you Mike for posting this. Thank you Iving for the effort. I really appreciate it.

 

[ddk]

streaming can be variations of enjoyable.....mostly a recording and performance question (like always that is most important). native files streamed can be outstanding.....and many times are. but processing does intrude. there are many many native files to enjoy. and lots of great music. if you are a classical fan there is just so much to enjoy.

my opinion is you cannot paint streaming with a broad brush.....OTOH some do.

I'm one of the OTOHs ! Streaming can be fun but I always find myself bored after a little while no matter the hardware and software. I have the same problem in my car, satellite XM drives me nutty very quickly and have to switch to FM or nothing at all. I simply never heard streaming sound natural so I don't see it as a highend format, my broad brush again!

david

 

[dminches]

I'm one of the OTOHs ! Streaming can be fun but I always find myself bored after a little while no matter the hardware and software. I have the same problem in my car, satellite XM drives me nutty very quickly and have to switch to FM or nothing at all. I simply never heard streaming sound natural so I don't see it as a highend format, my broad brush again!

david

I don't see streaming as a format. It is a source of music data. If the digital server can properly manage the data, it shouldn't sound very different than locally stored files. That's been my experience with the Taiko Extreme. Now, if you just can't get emotionally involved with digital music, I understand. But that is an issue with the server, in part, and the music format (digital vs analog). It took me a long time to be able to get there.

 

[astrotoy]

Thanks for the video.

Important - when talking about deficiencies of digital BG says at 1:18:36 "Most of the older stuff" and then talks about lack of sampling at high frequencies. That to me is talking about lower sampling rates, not the high sampling rates (like DSD256, PCM192). Also lack of low level ambience, something I notice with lower sampling rates.

Larry

 

[ddk]

I don't see streaming as a format. It is a source of music data. If the digital server can properly manage the data, it shouldn't sound very different than locally stored files. That's been my experience with the Taiko Extreme. Now, if you just can't get emotionally involved with digital music, I understand. But that is an issue with the server, in part, and the music format (digital vs analog). It took me a long time to be able to get there.

Maybe I should said all computer audio and not just streaming and it has nothing to do with hardware I just can’t stand the files and players no matter the hardware. I don’t mind CDs and I found it worthwhile to optimize the hardware, so even though I prefer analog I can live with digital CDs.
david

 

[microstrip]

Maybe I should said all computer audio and not just streaming and it has nothing to do with hardware I just can’t stand the files and players no matter the hardware. I don’t mind CDs and I found it worthwhile to optimize the hardware, so even though I prefer analog I can live with digital CDs.
david

But as we can't ignore that the bits of CD's have been stored in computers, we must consider that the process of making the physic disk and spinning it adds something to the bits that makes them musical. Or we simply enjoy the jitter induced distortions of some CD transport / DAC /player systems ...

 

[tima]

Language my own, from my own notes - I think it's on beam - Captures gist anyway - Apologies any minor deviations / Timings approx.

Thanks Iving, good job. You saved me over an hour of my life.

 

[ddk]

But as we can't ignore that the bits of CD's have been stored in computers, we must consider that the process of making the physic disk and spinning it adds something to the bits that makes them musical. Or we simply enjoy the jitter induced distortions of some CD transport / DAC /player systems ...

I understand Francisco and I have no answer about the differences it’s just what I hear. This doesn’t mean that I love CDs just that I can listen to them and even enjoy them at times in my own system.

Edit- We need to add the interface between the transport and DACs to the final equation. It took a lot of experimentation with all kinds of wires and connectors to settle on a SPDIF digital wire. But at the end of the day going by naturalness I don’t find that much of a loss going from CEC TL0+Weiss/MSB/Meitner/AN/dcs/Goldmund/Levinson and a few others that I can’t remember now to a one piece CD player. The nature of digital is what it is!

david

 

[jeromelang]

Streaming has 2 issues:

Sonic degradation occurs when within an album, one track transit to the next subsequent track. All subsequent tracks remain degraded from the moment on.

This sort of sonic degradation can be circumvented by playing tracks from a different album/folder/playlist after the current track ends.

For album-listening this is problematic.

For a greatest hits compilation, the user can try pulling different tracks from different albums into a playlist to avoid tracks from the same album/folder to be played consecutively.

Then we often run into the second problem:

DACs have issue handling sample rate change when 1 track transit into the next subsequent track. This will exhibit some sonic artefacts.

Whether it is going from 24/192 going into 24/96 or 16/44.1 going into 24/192 or even pcm going to dsd, etc, the problem is always going to be there.

When compiling a playlist on Tidal or Qobuz, the user always have to ensure the list is pulling tracks with the same bitrate/sampling rate to avoid audio artefacts and degradation from being introduced. This is harder done than thought as within an artist's repertoire on Tidal and Qobuz there often exist different sampling rates.

 

[howiebrou]

Michael 45 was pretty quiet - good "Chair"

So totally unlike Meghan Markle then....

 

[adrianywu]

Thanks for the video.

Important - when talking about deficiencies of digital BG says at 1:18:36 "Most of the older stuff" and then talks about lack of sampling at high frequencies. That to me is talking about lower sampling rates, not the high sampling rates (like DSD256, PCM192). Also lack of low level ambience, something I notice with lower sampling rates.

Larry

Yes, but a lot of recordings were made in RBCD standard. Those can be completely written off. And at least for classical, the major labels are no longer putting in anywhere near the resources they have put in during the analogue era. I asked my son why he is listening to Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin etc., and he said that nothing produced nowadays is anywhere close to the quality of the music from the 60s and 70s (for rock anyway). And are there any recording engineers today with the same skill level as Kenneth Wilkinson, Roy Wallace, Gordon Parry, Bob Fine, Lewis Layton or Christopher Parker ? The best we can hope for are well remastered high rez digitalised versions of the analogue classics from the golden era.