Audioguy HT and 2 Channel Room (Combined)

[edorr]

Oh definitely. I read Kal's posts keenly. And yours and Brucemck2 too. I just wish he (Kal) would do some research on Auro 3d with the resources he has. I definitely felt a big plus on the Auro over MCH, the same that an MCH lover will feel over 2-ch. It adds that whole extra dimension without which the sound seems flatter. Similar to what will happen when you switch off MCH and just play on your two channels.

I suspect the the MCH music purist won't touch Auro with a ten feet pole, because it involves post processing of the native 5.1 mix. You could argue if you apply DRC you're not a purist anyway (fair point), but to me creating additional channels synthetically is a MCH bridge too far. Thenagain, if it would simply prove to sound better I'd be open to persuasion. But given the fact that I don't have the space (nor appetite) to cram more speakers into my room and re-architect my entire setup, it is a moot point for me. I suspect Kal is in the same 5.1 boat....

By the way, I recently played Adele live in Royal albert Hall and the vocals sounded like crap - something was amiss. I checked, and lo and behold the Dirac DRC was disengaged. Switching Driac back on and giving my amps 30 minutes to warm up and things fell back in place. I find this Adele blu ray a very good recording to see how well the MCH system is sounding and assess system changes, because with just one piece of the puzzle out of whack this soundtrack becomes unlistenable to me.

 

[bonzo75]

I suspect the the MCH music purist won't touch Auro with a ten feet pole, because it involves post processing of the native 5.1 mix. You could argue if you apply DRC you're not a purist anyway (fair point), but to me creating additional channels synthetically is a MCH bridge too far. Thenagain, if it would simply prove to sound better I'd be open to persuasion. But given the fact that I don't have the space (nor appetite) to cram more speakers into my room and re-architect my entire setup, it is a moot point for me. I suspect Kal is in the same 5.1 boat....

By the way, I recently played Adele live in Royal albert Hall and the vocals sounded like crap - something was amiss. I checked, and lo and behold the Dirac DRC was disengaged. Switching Driac back on and giving my amps 30 minutes to warm up and things fell back in place. I find this Adele blu ray a very good recording to see how well the MCH system is sounding and assess system changes, because with just one piece of the puzzle out of whack this soundtrack becomes unlistenable to me.

It is easy to set up Auro if you have 5.1, because the ceiling speakers can be quite small. So the only thing to do is get someone to install the wiring and the speakers so it looks clean. One of the dealers of Datasat/Auro in London actually recorded that Adele in RAH. Though I can't stand her music so I requested him not to play it.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

By the way, I recently played Adele live in Royal albert Hall and the vocals sounded like crap - something was amiss. I checked, and lo and behold the Dirac DRC was disengaged. Switching Driac back on and giving my amps 30 minutes to warm up and things fell back in place. I find this Adele blu ray a very good recording to see how well the MCH system is sounding and assess system changes, because with just one piece of the puzzle out of whack this soundtrack becomes unlistenable to me.

I've been looking at getting this Blu-ray, but I've hesitated as the 2CH capture only shows Dolby Digital 2.0. No PCM 2.0? Can you confirm the 2Ch captures?

 

[edorr]

I've been looking at getting this Blu-ray, but I've hesitated as the 2CH capture only shows Dolby Digital 2.0. No PCM 2.0? Can you confirm the 2Ch captures?

I can check, but I's have to dust off my disc, because I'm playing the ripped tracks with 5.1 audio from my server.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I can check, but I's have to dust off my disc, because I'm playing the ripped tracks with 5.1 audio from my server.

No problem. Post it when you can...in the meantime I'll look around.

 

[audioguy]

I suspect the the MCH music purist won't touch Auro with a ten feet pole, because it involves post processing of the native 5.1 mix. You could argue if you apply DRC you're not a purist anyway (fair point), but to me creating additional channels synthetically is a MCH bridge too far. Thenagain, if it would simply prove to sound better I'd be open to persuasion. But given the fact that I don't have the space (nor appetite) to cram more speakers into my room and re-architect my entire setup, it is a moot point for me. I suspect Kal is in the same 5.1 boat....

By the way, I recently played Adele live in Royal albert Hall and the vocals sounded like crap - something was amiss. I checked, and lo and behold the Dirac DRC was disengaged. Switching Driac back on and giving my amps 30 minutes to warm up and things fell back in place. I find this Adele blu ray a very good recording to see how well the MCH system is sounding and assess system changes, because with just one piece of the puzzle out of whack this soundtrack becomes unlistenable to me.

There is virtually zero music available recorded with Auro and even fewer movies or concerts. Too bad as it was an Auro demo of an organ playing in a Cathedral [at CEDIA 2014] that convinced me to go the 3D audio path. By a large margin, that was the closest I have ever experienced a recording sound like live event. AuroMatic (upsampling non-Auro, regular 2 channel or 5.1 or 7.1 recordings to using all base level and ceiling speakers is a huge disappointment to me. Many like it. It is NOTHING but taking the left and right outputs and changing the levels and adding some delay/reverb and placing them in the various speakers. I discoverd this by turning off all of the base level speakers and just playing the ceiling speakers. Sounded just like 2 channel because that's what is was/is.

I do use Dolby's Upsampler for all music reproduction (2 channel or Bluray 5.1 or 7.1). Most of the time it greatly improves the listening experience, but on rare occasssion, sounds a bit odd. The Upsampler is part of Dolby Atmos but for expanding non-Atmos recorded stuff.

Getting closer to ordering my Datasat RS20i!!!!

 

[audioguy]

The Datasat RS20i is in my system. Awesome. Most enveloping sound I have ever experienced in my home. Dirac corrects impulse, phase and frequency response and speakers disappear, sound emanates from everywhere, and sounds that were previously buried in the mix show up and add considerably to the experience. The corrected frequency response is far better than anything I have ever seen.

The left front speaker: Black is after Dirac, Red is uncorrected and Blue is corrected with Audyssey. In the case of the RS20i, I used PEQ's prior to running Dirac. There are two differences that must be noted: The dip at around 2K is a dip that Audyssey puts in and the rolloff at the high end is due to two difference target curves. I am still experimenting. The closer each speaker's corrected response is to every other speaker's corrected response, the better the immersion.

 

[bonzo75]

Have you got Auro 3d and the voice of God channel?

 

[edorr]

The Datasat RS20i is in my system. Awesome. Most enveloping sound I have ever experienced in my home. Dirac corrects impulse, phase and frequency response and speakers disappear, sound emanates from everywhere, and sounds that were previously buried in the mix show up and add considerably to the experience. The corrected frequency response is far better than anything I have ever seen.

The left front speaker: Black is after Dirac, Red is uncorrected and Blue is corrected with Audyssey. In the case of the RS20i, I used PEQ's prior to running Dirac. There are two differences that must be noted: The dip at around 2K is a dip that Audyssey puts in and the rolloff at the high end is due to two difference target curves. I am still experimenting. The closer each speaker's corrected response is to every other speaker's corrected response, the better the immersion.

Are you using the MCH system predominantly for movies or music?

 

[audioguy]

Have you got Auro 3d and the voice of God channel?

I do have Auro 3D but not the VOG channel. Since there is no Auro material to listen to (except the Auro Demo) and I like DSU much better than Automatic, no need to worry about it. My ceiling speaker placement is more Atmos friendly than Auro for the same reason - no source material.

 

[audioguy]

Are you using the MCH system predominantly for movies or music?

I have been listening to music [2 channel] utilizing multiple speakers for many years. Home 2 channel audio can't come even marginally close to reproducing a live musical event, regardless of the price of the system or the room it is in - not even close. At least multiple speakers can add a sense of space (and now with height speakers, a three dimensional space) to give a bit more realism. I was a strict 2 channel guy for over 40 years before experimenting (initially with a Meridian SSP) and now I listen that way exclusively. There is some music that does not lend itself as well to the expansion to multiple speakers but it is, to my ears, still much more enjoyable than 2 channel.

This all goes back to the 2 channel audio chase for "accurate reproduction" that I travelled for so long. I had been chasing that dream for years, and spending more money and more money and more money and more upgrades and more upgrades all of the time. And while the sound got better, it still never sounded at all like a live event. I sang in 150 person choir for over 25 years and we used a large orchestra. No home audio system sounded like that. I had season tickets to the Atlanta Symphony for over 25 years. Home audio is a joke in trying to replicate that. I use to think some of the best 2 channel systems could replicate a small jazz ensemble until my wife hired a 3 piece jazz group that played in our home. The differences between live and home reproduced are so huge, that we are really not even close. If live music is 100, the best home audio system I have ever heard may be a 10.

So, given I could never reach "accurate" I decided to chase "entertaining or fun". And that I have been able to accomplish [with a lot less money, I might add].

End of sermon!!

 

[bonzo75]

I do have Auro 3D but not the VOG channel. Since there is no Auro material to listen to (except the Auro Demo) and I like DSU much better than Automatic, no need to worry about it. My ceiling speaker placement is more Atmos friendly than Auro for the same reason - no source material.

The VoG made a massive difference in my Auro 3d demos, including upsampling 5-ch and 2-ch, and without it things dropped significantly

 

[audioguy]

The VoG made a massive difference in my Auro 3d demos, including upsampling 5-ch and 2-ch, and without it things dropped significantly

I don't doubt that. Two things would need to occur for me to install a VOG speaker: (1) enough Auro source material to make it worth the effort and expense and (2) I will need to find more appropriate ceiling speakers. What I am using is perfect (huge dispersion pattern, efficient, great FR, etc) but super unattractive - and hangs down too low. I want something i can install "on ceiling" vs "in-ceiling" that I can then hide behind my "ceiling cloud. After having spent what I did on the RS20i and also a new rack (and the hours and hours and hours it is still taking me to get everything arranged and cleaned up in the rack), I am in no hurry to do anything but actually listen to my system for a long time.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi how is the tone of violin and brass in auro compared to analog 2ch? Especially of good 5 Ch recordings, if you have tried upmixing them

 

[audioguy]

Hi how is the tone of violin and brass in auro compared to analog 2ch? Especially of good 5 Ch recordings, if you have tried upmixing them

I don't understand your question. When you say "violin and brass in auro" do you mean Auromatic? If so, I don't know. After I did all of my initial listening in Automatic, and realized how it worked and how is sounded compared to DSU, I never went back. When I make a big change, I will go back and listen to the Auro demo disc but I have no use for Automatic.

I do have some multichannel music disc and I have up sampled them and like that as well. Remember, I am not after accurate so if a an instrument sounds more "accurate" in it's native mode, I will still up-sample it.

 

[bonzo75]

I mean, if you up mix 5 channel to auro 3d, do you notice any compromise in violin tone?

 

[edorr]

I have been listening to music [2 channel] utilizing multiple speakers for many years. Home 2 channel audio can't come even marginally close to reproducing a live musical event, regardless of the price of the system or the room it is in - not even close. At least multiple speakers can add a sense of space (and now with height speakers, a three dimensional space) to give a bit more realism. I was a strict 2 channel guy for over 40 years before experimenting (initially with a Meridian SSP) and now I listen that way exclusively. There is some music that does not lend itself as well to the expansion to multiple speakers but it is, to my ears, still much more enjoyable than 2 channel.

This all goes back to the 2 channel audio chase for "accurate reproduction" that I travelled for so long. I had been chasing that dream for years, and spending more money and more money and more money and more upgrades and more upgrades all of the time. And while the sound got better, it still never sounded at all like a live event. I sang in 150 person choir for over 25 years and we used a large orchestra. No home audio system sounded like that. I had season tickets to the Atlanta Symphony for over 25 years. Home audio is a joke in trying to replicate that. I use to think some of the best 2 channel systems could replicate a small jazz ensemble until my wife hired a 3 piece jazz group that played in our home. The differences between live and home reproduced are so huge, that we are really not even close. If live music is 100, the best home audio system I have ever heard may be a 10.

So, given I could never reach "accurate" I decided to chase "entertaining or fun". And that I have been able to accomplish [with a lot less money, I might add].

End of sermon!!

I agree live and reproduced music is not even close. Few caveats though.

While the larger the ensemble the more true this hypothesis, single instrument (say guitar or even piano solo) or small ensamble (without a drumkit) can come pretty damnd close.
While different than live, reproduced music of say a stadium rock concert sounds better (on my MCH system) than the live event, simple because the acoustics in the original venue sucks.

HOWEVER, sat front row, 10 feet away from the drumkit and 5 feet from the guitar player at Eddie's Attic last Sunday, and no sound system can come close.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I don;t know where I stand on the issue. I am beginning to come to term with the fact that Recorded Music is its own Art form. Just like Cinema or Photography or Theater are not real life ... We tend to need some amount of verisimilitude and that is where our gear may help. again may. Add too often they fail. We audiophiles more so tha most get around this by a good amount of rationalization, "preferences" and stylization. Often what we hear on some systems have no equivalent in real life ...

This said without delving into pedantry Stereo was never meant to be 2-ch. This came as the compromises brought in by the technology of the time .. Getting more channels wasn't easy to achieve then.. So 3 it was , then 2 and the 2 stuck and we came to see it as the preferred method although anyone who has cared to listen to , for example the Mercury 3-channel on a good system will find those superior to the 2-channel mix down. So ot os clear that we need more than 2 channels. We also need software that take this into account not audio demo thingies.. Real music that care to take advantage of the additional channels. THere may be some .. Most music are still thiking in term of 2 channels ..may be movies aren't ..but 98% of music I care about have been recorded for 2-channel "stereo" .. I don;t yet feel comfortable to just add my version of things ...

Additionally, it seems to me that one thing that most systems are lacking is sheer sound volume and scale of volume. Audiophiles seem to have espoused a world-view of soft playing music in a rounded , "nice", emasculated rendition. It is nowhere more apparent than in many (most) single driver speakers driven by SET where the only thing that is reproduced seems to be the midrange and then we come to laud this as a "superb" midrange that can't be matched by anything else .. Indeed that is all that it is playing after all.. I am digressing but I think you all caught my drift. Most system cannot play instantaneous loud of the kind real music makes its living off a sense of from very soft to suddenly loud that most speakers fail miserably at. ... Some speakers can play loud indeed but don't jump to play loud and do not do loud transients well, not a matter of price by the way.. I would even go as far as to say that numerous expensive systems tend to present a stylized version of real events that rounds too many edges. Example is a live violin as compared to many reproductions A real life violin: Loud, screechy ,piercing instrument.. Most system that are deemed good sounding by many actually have the violin all wrong becaue it is not a sweet sounding instrument so hat lack of volume impart some kind of sameness to the sound a "blandization"/homogenization and it seems preferred to , even at times, the Real Thing. Plus there is all that sounds that ..well .. surrounds us in real life even while listening to music ... There is sound coming from everywhere mostly where the stage is for most Western or perhaps Music in general but there're a iot of sound coming in a 360 sphere and it has varying degree of loudness and some of the comonents of the real events, altough extremely short in duration are very loud and somehow contribute to the sense of realism ... Let 's not talk about bass where for the most part audiophiles refuse as a matter of principle to EQ or to use multiple subs ... And please don't utter DSP ... which could take care very nicely of some issues in the bass ... Sacrilege!

All this to say that we need sound all around us (aka MCH) and a system capable (among other things) of linear volume scaling to come closer to the real thing . The technology for serious surround is there absent are the market demand thus the willingness of Studios to record that way ...

 

[Ron Party]

Chuck, if I ever get around to upgrading my SSP to the Datasat I'm going to have you fly back out to the Bay Area and help me to set it up. Maybe I'll get Nyal to drive across the bay and join us. I'll pour the tequilla, sit back and watch the two of you go at it.

 

[edorr]

Chuck, if I ever get around to upgrading my SSP to the Datasat I'm going to have you fly back out to the Bay Area and help me to set it up. Maybe I'll get Nyal to drive across the bay and join us. I'll pour the tequilla, sit back and watch the two of you go at it.

Rip your content, and use Dirac Live on a server and save a bundle. No channel expansion of course.