Apple, in rolling out OS 11, may be the beginning of the end for MQA

[asiufy]

How much "better" does MQA sound with a fully MQA-enabled DAC?

Enough that you can't claim to have heard MQA without it.
I remember a % number being tossed around back then, something like 20% of the performance with just that first unfold.
As more and more DACs get compatible, I'm pretty sure the results will speak for themselves. I believe dCS is close with their implementation, so some of our members here will be able to give it a spin and report back.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hey Alex, just a light hearted comment about being happy w my lot, and being naturally averse to format flame wars.
I'm in the middle of my internal argument about going streaming, so that tinfoil hat may be coming off soon.
You have yr wk cut out jousting w MQA Truth, save yr energy for him
But if truth be told, w the SQ I'm getting from my $12.5k Eera Tentation cdp, I'm wanting for nothing.

 

[PeterA]

Tinfoil hat firmly in place then, uh?
How many MQA files have you heard to make that assessment?

Alex, with all due respect, I think this is a pretty insulting comment. I have not yet had the chance to hear MQA files and I quite content to enjoy my LPs on my vinyl only system, so like Marc, I plan to stick with my gear and not try a new format just yet. Does that mean that I and other audiophiles who don't have plans to buy an MQA enabled DAC all wear tinfoil hats too? Just reading these pages is enough to raise some concerns about the format.

This whole MQA subject has become pretty contentious here on WBF. It is not made any better by members insulting each other about their format preferences.

 

[asiufy]

Alex, with all due respect, I think this is a pretty insulting comment. I have not yet had the chance to hear MQA files and I quite content to enjoy my LPs on my vinyl only system, so like Marc, I plan to stick with my gear and not try a new format just yet. Does that mean that I and other audiophiles who don't have plans to buy an MQA enabled DAC all wear tinfoil hats too? Just reading these pages is enough to raise some concerns about the format.

This whole MQA subject has become pretty contentious here on WBF. It is not made any better by members insulting each other about their format preferences.

Peter,

Unlke you, Marc already has digital, and is considering streaming. The message was directed at him, not you.
The point being: don't let the forum craziness cloud what's most important at the end of the day: how it sounds. Forming an opinion on a format without ever listening to it does not make sense to me.
If Marc listens to it, and finds it's not worth the hassle changing DACs, that's fine.

Marc,

You know where I stand in the streaming thing
I understand being happy with what you've got, but part of the hobby is experiencing new things and search for that incremental improvement that might or might not be applicable to our systems.
That whole discovery thing is a huge part of the fun, and one of the very few benefits of actually being on the business end of the this hobby.
And besides, if you're happy with what you have, and don't want to hear/read about what's out there, what's the point of frequenting a forum like this?


cheers,
alex

 

[spiritofmusic]

Alex, I'm on the way to "justifying" the move
My digital has quantum jumped w my power being sorted
So much so that suddenly a substantial budget on an uber digital solution makes sense over "more" analog
I'm putting a last burst of effort into my vinyl front end (upgraded motor psu, bespoke overspecced psu to top factory spec Straingauge, all top Sablon Elite pwr cords, Stacore Adv isoln platform), on the basis that my analog had the edge over digital in my old space, I'm positive I'll get good results here w my digital already so impvd.
And this is now where Alex, me and you agree, it is time for me to take musical investigation further via streaming.
This decision is primarily triggered by my digital now being at such a good level that I'm achieving the kind of vibe I've only ever got w the best vinyl.
For me now, if I get the result w my current analog front end I'm confident of, and my cdp being so compelling, the universe on Tidal is the place for me to investigate.
My idea is to spend a bit of cash and mod my Eera cdp to provide a BNC Digital IN, and start w a modest SPDIF OUT streamer like Auralic or the forthcoming Roon streamer into my existing Eera cdp as dac, or go to a mid line combo like Innuous Zenith server w Schiit Yggy or Aqua La Voce dac, go the next level eg CAT server and dac or Antipodes DX server and new Eera dac, or the whole 9 Yards w SGM and T&A Dac8 or Aqua Formula or go all-Lampi ie SK and GG.
I just need to get my head around having to deal w an device I've been avoiding from the late 70s
I'm 53, and have proudly but w less and less success been opting out of any day to day need to use computers.
Sad, I know.

 

[DaveyF]

Peter,


The point being: don't let the forum craziness cloud what's most important at the end of the day: how it sounds. Forming an opinion on a format without ever listening to it does not make sense to me.




cheers,
alex

Agree with this 100%. Which is why I was so interested in hearing the MQA demo.

Without question, I thought the improvement in sound over the " standard file " was more than significant and a major step upwards in SQ.
However, even though you ( Alex) seem to believe that the upsample aspect is impossible, I still question whether the same result could not have been obtained through a simple upsample...Plus, the idea of a "proprietary filter" seems a little far fetched when it comes to being able to
modify the psycho-acosutic aspect of the master file.
I have enjoyed a HDCD DAC for many years, when playing back a HDCD file, this DAC certainly sounds better than when playing back a standard 16/44 CD. I'm sure the same could be said for any full MQA spec DAC. MQA Truth is more concerned about the impact on the public's
buying ability and the overall marketing technique that Meridian and Bob Stuart are employing..which is well covered in the excellent Linn article. I believe that MQA Truth's points are well taken and apropos. However, I still think there are two possible views going on here...
one is that MQA is bad for the consumer, the artist, the manufacturer and is nothing more than a huge money grab; and the other is that MQA is indeed a superior sounding format to the standard file that people are going to be downloading.
Here's the thing,and this is the issue that concerns me the most, is that MQA is nothing more than a simple upsample with some simple algorithm applied to the file by some filter. If that is the case, wouldn't it be likely that any other DAC manufacturer could produce the same increase in SQ and with little to no additional expense or hullabaloo???
Please also understand, I am a vinyl guy, so all of this digital stuff is more than confusing, so who's truth and who's dare??? So to speak.
I don't want to take sides, but perhaps we don't need to---maybe Alex and MQA truth are both correct! Is that possible?

 

[Al M.]

Alex, with all due respect, I think this is a pretty insulting comment. I have not yet had the chance to hear MQA files and I quite content to enjoy my LPs on my vinyl only system, so like Marc, I plan to stick with my gear and not try a new format just yet. Does that mean that I and other audiophiles who don't have plans to buy an MQA enabled DAC all wear tinfoil hats too? Just reading these pages is enough to raise some concerns about the format.

This whole MQA subject has become pretty contentious here on WBF. It is not made any better by members insulting each other about their format preferences.

+1

 

[Al M.]

Marc,

You know where I stand in the streaming thing
I understand being happy with what you've got, but part of the hobby is experiencing new things and search for that incremental improvement that might or might not be applicable to our systems.
That whole discovery thing is a huge part of the fun, and one of the very few benefits of actually being on the business end of the this hobby.

What you apparently fail to grasp, Alex, is that you can discover just as much within a single format as you can by diversifying. I have discovered incredible things -- all positive -- by upgrading my system centered around CD playback over the last three years, and by discovering what the format can do in other systems.

I'd rather concentrate on this journey than on pursuing 'unicorn' formats that go nowhere. Let's talk about MQA in 5 years...

***

And by the way, for whatever odd technical reason (issues with servers vs. transport replay, or others unknown) the best digital playback that I have yet heard is from Redbook CD, by quite a margin. Of course, I am not at all claiming that this format intrnisically sounds best, but it is obvious to me that potential advantages of other digital formats are not of such caliber that they cannot be easily neutralized by, perhaps trivial, technical issues in the process of their delivery.

 

[rbbert]

...Everybody wins! The record companies get un copyable versions of their files, Bob Stuart makes money from them and from the DAC manufacturers,
Stereophile and TAS make money from more ads, and the consumer gets shafted.

What a wonderful thing. Instead of actually pushing forward the art of digital audio, we grease the wheel with
lossy crap to help struggling manufacturers, dealers, and magazines, with an army of shills in tow.

I strongly suspect this part of all the MQA stuff being discussed here is "truth". Everything else, I'm not so sure about.

 

[awsmone]

What you apparently fail to grasp, Alex, is that you can discover just as much within a single format as you can by diversifying. I have discovered incredible things -- all positive -- by upgrading my system centered around CD playback over the last three years, and by discovering what the format can do in other systems.

I'd rather concentrate on this journey than on pursuing 'unicorn' formats that go nowhere. Let's talk about MQA in 5 years...

***

And by the way, for whatever odd technical reason (issues with servers vs. transport replay, or others unknown) the best digital playback that I have yet heard is from Redbook CD, by quite a margin. Of course, I am not at all claiming that this format intrnisically sounds best, but it is obvious to me that potential advantages of other digital formats are not of such caliber that they cannot be easily neutralized by, perhaps trivial, technical issues in the process of their delivery.

an interesting point i have not seen clarified, was in the June demo, they played a CD, which on MQA unfolded to 176.4khz, so maybe you will be able to enjoy MQA on cd ?

 

[Joe Whip]

I am of the belief by looking at all the available information, that the effect of the two MQA unfolds can be accomplished via software with any file. The MQA from start to finish is unnecessary, unless of course, there are other rationales behind the whole thing.

 

[Al M.]

an interesting point i have not seen clarified, was in the June demo, they played a CD, which on MQA unfolded to 176.4khz, so maybe you will be able to enjoy MQA on cd ?

But only if the DAC has the full MQA capability. Speaking of that, earlier in the thread it was mentioned that only upon full unfolding of the file you really experience the most significant improvement by MQA, but doesn't the "temporal de-blurring" of the ADC occur before that, and isn't that allegedly the most important improvement of MQA? Count me confused.

 

[awsmone]

Agree with this 100%. Which is why I was so interested in hearing the MQA demo.

Without question, I thought the improvement in sound over the " standard file " was more than significant and a major step upwards in SQ.
However, even though you ( Alex) seem to believe that the upsample aspect is impossible, I still question whether the same result could not have been obtained through a simple upsample...Plus, the idea of a "proprietary filter" seems a little far fetched when it comes to being able to
modify the psycho-acosutic aspect of the master file.
I have enjoyed a HDCD DAC for many years, when playing back a HDCD file, this DAC certainly sounds better than when playing back a standard 16/44 CD. I'm sure the same could be said for any full MQA spec DAC. MQA Truth is more concerned about the impact on the public's
buying ability and the overall marketing technique that Meridian and Bob Stuart are employing..which is well covered in the excellent Linn article. I believe that MQA Truth's points are well taken and apropos. However, I still think there are two possible views going on here...
one is that MQA is bad for the consumer, the artist, the manufacturer and is nothing more than a huge money grab; and the other is that MQA is indeed a superior sounding format to the standard file that people are going to be downloading.
Here's the thing,and this is the issue that concerns me the most, is that MQA is nothing more than a simple upsample with some simple algorithm applied to the file by some filter. If that is the case, wouldn't it be likely that any other DAC manufacturer could produce the same increase in SQ and with little to no additional expense or hullabaloo???
Please also understand, I am a vinyl guy, so all of this digital stuff is more than confusing, so who's truth and who's dare??? So to speak.
I don't want to take sides, but perhaps we don't need to---maybe Alex and MQA truth are both correct! Is that possible?

Yes, they are certainly manipulating the files, and applying a bespoke filter that prioritised timing over ultimate frequency accuracy, and anti-aliasing
It would appear they are adding a "flag" to the file, so much like hdcd, if your dac doesn't have a license you cannot unfold it.

Ultimately, we can whinge, and speculate all we like, but since i saw the big labels as part investors in MQA, it will most likely happen whether we like it or not

What will be interesting to see based on your speculation is whether DCS, and MSB can come up with something better than meridian filter once they work out what they are doing exactly?

 

[awsmone]

yes, ur correct

in the demo they used a non meridian cd p, and meridian ultra dac

 

[awsmone]

I am of the belief by looking at all the available information, that the effect of the two MQA unfolds can be accomplished via software with any file. The MQA from start to finish is unnecessary, unless of course, there are other rationales behind the whole thing.

this is most likely, but :-

this is only a small part of the business plan though.......

 

[Joe Whip]

Yes, less fees.

 

[DaveyF]

But only if the DAC has the full MQA capability. Speaking of that, earlier in the thread it was mentioned that only upon full unfolding of the file you really experience the most significant improvement by MQA, but doesn't the "temporal de-blurring" of the ADC occur before that, and isn't that allegedly the most important improvement of MQA? Count me confused.

Al, I think at this point we are all pretty confused, lol!

The temporal de-blurring is something that Peter McGrath was alluding to when he played the files while giving the demo. I'm not sure that particular phrase is how I would describe the difference in SQ, but I guess one could use that descriptor.
One of the attendees mentioned to me that he felt the whole sound field was more lifelike and that the ability to relax with the music was easier. I agreed with him on this aspect. However, my digital a'phile friend seemed to think that this is one of the "tell tale signs" that the file was simply made more "euphonic" and nothing more.
To this point, I am not so certain I agree.

 

[BruceD]

Alex, with all due respect, I think this is a pretty insulting comment. I have not yet had the chance to hear MQA files and I quite content to enjoy my LPs on my vinyl only system, so like Marc, I plan to stick with my gear and not try a new format just yet. Does that mean that I and other audiophiles who don't have plans to buy an MQA enabled DAC all wear tinfoil hats too? Just reading these pages is enough to raise some concerns about the format.

This whole MQA subject has become pretty contentious here on WBF. It is not made any better by members insulting each other about their format preferences.

Well said Peter--Mr asiufy needs to curb his replies --in this case and undeserving nasty comment to Spirit--it does not take much for Dealers to loose their "shine" on forums.

As Ali G would say--Respect

BruceD

 

[Al M.]

Al, I think at this point we are all pretty confused, lol!

Hehe

The temporal de-blurring is something that Peter McGrath was alluding to when he played the files while giving the demo. I'm not sure that particular phrase is how I would describe the difference in SQ, but I guess one could use that descriptor.
One of the attendees mentioned to me that he felt the whole sound field was more lifelike and that the ability to relax with the music was easier. I agreed with him on this aspect.

I just listened to Rush's '2112' on plain CD and enjoyed the holographic soundstage. I'm not sure you could call that 'lifelike' but involving it certainly was. As for the ability to relax with the music: I am not sure if I would always want that. I want music to be exciting rather than 'relaxing', and my set-up certainly facilitates the former. BTW, this is also a hallmark of the best LP replay for me.

However, my digital a'phile friend seemed to think that this is one of the "tell tale signs" that the file was simply made more "euphonic" and nothing more.
To this point, I am not so certain I agree.

"Euphonic" can mean many things, so I am not sure either. Yet sometimes a greater intrinsic incisiveness of presentation can be "diluted out" and this may appear as more relaxing. If that's the meaning of the term "euphonic" in the context, I would agree with your friend.

 

[asiufy]

I'll let this thread be, since now being a dealer already makes me automatically evil, and I don't need to step into arguments where my intentions are being misconstrued left and right.

If anybody's ever in SD and want to visit, chat, and perhaps listen to an MQA track or two, they're welcome to. Those that did do that know me, and know I just want people to have fun in this hobby.


cheers,
alex