Apogee Full range

[spiritofmusic]

Well, there is some major risk in all of this. I'm going to have to show a little faith that SETs indeed aren't a dynamic compromise w/Apogees, and any demo is very unlikely to incorporate tubes or tt. So I will make a tentative choice when I'm not in my comfort zone.
In reality, the only place where I'll feel familiar w/panels is Peter w/his AAs/Nat SETs/AMG tt.
But I'm reasonably good at extrapolating a sound to how it might sound w/different gear (hearing "thru" the spkr), and so any 100% digital/SS demos will still prove to be educational.

 

[cjfrbw]

SET's can be wonderful on Apogees. I used active crossovers with SET's (specifically 50 watt Wavacs) with outstanding results on the Stage and later on the Analysis Epsilon.

I tried transistor amps for many years with varying degrees of sonic failure. However, re-discovering VFET amps and using them with my array of directly heated triode drivers, they result is better to me than SET amps. Directly heated triode preamps with VFET= openness, fluid dynamics and gorgeous upper midrange with solid state dynamics. The ability of VFETS to produce almost absolute spatial addressing with distinct and beautiful tonal envelopes is also a plus. Just where every other transistor amps turn slightly bitter in taste, the VFETS go deeper, sweeter, and faster.

I hate to use the evil word "synergy" but VFETs seem to be the ideal booster amp for directly heated triode driver stages.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sorry for my absolute ignorance on this, but what should I look for re VFETs? Any current models? All I can see is Nelson Pass First Watt, but pwr ratings are even lower than my current Nat SETs.

 

[LL21]

http://hifi-advice.com/Apogee-Diva-review-2.html#conclusion

updated as recently as April 2015.

And this review shows you can add a panel to the Full Range (just for bass)...any one heard one of these? http://www.hifi-advice.com/Apogee-Acoustics-fullrange.html

 

[spiritofmusic]

Now, THAT is a beast re amp requirements. SETs guys like me need not apply!

 

[ddk]

http://hifi-advice.com/Apogee-Diva-review-2.html#conclusion

updated as recently as April 2015.

And this review shows you can add a panel to the Full Range (just for bass)...any one heard one of these? http://www.hifi-advice.com/Apogee-Acoustics-fullrange.html

As far as I know it hasn't been done Lloyd. Its not a simple task to just randomly add another bass panel and get it to work right.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

I believe Audio Analysis top model is the 4-tower Orions, 2 towers for mid/treble, 2 for bass. I guess it can be done, but only when imagined from the outset.

 

[thekong]

Nice to see all these Apogee talks here! I am also using a pair of Apogee Fullrange which was restored by Rich of True Sound Works. I really have no desire to change, it is that good!

 

[bonzo75]

I believe Audio Analysis top model is the 4-tower Orions, 2 towers for mid/treble, 2 for bass. I guess it can be done, but only when imagined from the outset.

The two towers are the amphi, and the next two are for additional bass. Review says that's required for a concert hall type room.

Am sure the full range went require a bass panel.

 

[thekong]

As long as one have the space, and assuming the room doesn't have sonic problems of itself, I don't see any problem in adding another bass panel to the Fullrange. The Fullrange actually has three physically separated parts, the treble / middle range unit (at around 170lbs, it is actually heavier than the bass panel), the bass panel, and the baffle / wing. If you build a dedicated stand, the mid/treble unit can stand on its own separately from the bass, so you can experiment positioning it slightly in front or behind the bass panel.

If I am going to add a bass panel, instead of the configuration shown in one of the links, I would try baffle>bass>mid/treble> bass> baffle, making it somewhat concentric.

 

[bonzo75]

Gallant Diva's article on planar speaker placements https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/planar-speaker-placement

 

[thekong]

That placement method was actually based on the room coupling method pioneered by Limage, a Magneplaner guru in Hong Kong:

http://www.1pekingroad.com/zaspx/topics.aspx?topicsno=3

click on the thread Room Coupling.

 

[bonzo75]

Wow if they can do 40% of room in a Hong Kong sized room, we should be able to do it in London heh.

From gallant divas page, I understand that the lower models from full ranges were slightly compromised that the ribbon foil was kapton backed to make it sturdier(this is what Justin told me as well ). Without kapton ribbon is more fragile but midrange better.

 

[thekong]

Yes, before I got the Fullrange, I was using the Duetta Sig., first in stock form, then shipped to Graz for full restoration and upgraded to foil only (no kapton backing) mid/treble ribbon. I believe mine were the first to receive such upgrade. The improvement in transparency was tremendous. The only drawback is that the impedance of the foil only mid/treble ribbon is lower than 1ohm, so one need to modify the passive Xover, or in my case, uses a special transformer from Graz to raise the impedance for a 2 ways active system.

I have followed Limage on a number of room placement trips, and if the room is rectangular, the speaker positions always fall in the 40-50% range length wise. Interesting this not only works for panel speakers, but conventional speakers as well.

My current room is 15’W X 33’L X 13’H, but truncated in the right back corner so not really rectangular, and the best position is about 11’ from the front wall.

 

[thekong]

Take a look at these videos of the foil only mid/treble ribbon in my Duetta Sig. Not for the faint of heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyZor7SRx6o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ScZzT4bAgo

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thekong, what a fascinating series of insights into daily optimisation of the Graz Apogees.
What are your thoughts on the use of SETs w/Graz restored Duetta Signatures? Not just the Watts required, but the volatages too, I believe planars are hungry re both, and it may ep be voltage considerations that rule out SETs, in the same way SETs would not be practical for JBL Everests, Giya G1s.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, before I got the Fullrange, I was using the Duetta Sig., first in stock form, then shipped to Graz for full restoration and upgraded to foil only (no kapton backing) mid/treble ribbon. I believe mine were the first to receive such upgrade. The improvement in transparency was tremendous. The only drawback is that the impedance of the foil only mid/treble ribbon is lower than 1ohm, so one need to modify the passive Xover, or in my case, uses a special transformer from Graz to raise the impedance for a 2 ways active system.

I have followed Limage on a number of room placement trips, and if the room is rectangular, the speaker positions always fall in the 40-50% range length wise. Interesting this not only works for panel speakers, but conventional speakers as well.

My current room is 15’W X 33’L X 13’H, but truncated in the right back corner so not really rectangular, and the best position is about 11’ from the front wall.

In that case Justin's interstallars with kapton-less ribbons will be a dream speaker for medium sized rooms.

Marc, for your 45 ft room, you can have a full range/Amphi at 18ft from the front wall, have the sitting room in the front with the planars as a partition, and pull the curtain to have a sleeping room at the back

 

[spiritofmusic]

In that case Justin's interstallars with kapton-less ribbons will be a dream speaker for medium sized rooms.

Marc, for your 45 ft room, you can have a full range/Amphi at 18ft from the front wall, have the sitting room in the front with the planars as a partition, and pull the curtain to have a sleeping room at the back

Thanx for the architectural/interior design advice. Don't quit the day job !
I may physically split the 45' depth into 30' and 15', 30' for audio, x 15' x 9'.
Thekong's ribbon different from Justin's? J having kapton-backed ribbon, Thekong obv not.
If Justin's impedance drops under 1 Ohm, that's pretty challenging.

 

[thekong]

Hi Spirit, regarding SET, I think while Apogee, especially the Fullrange, is not as power hunger as many have believed, over 100W per way per side is probably need for a decent size room. For the Duetta Sig., I have used the Sonic Frontiers Power 2 (110W) for the mid/treble, and Power 3 (220W) for the bass, to my satisfaction. I have also used the same Sonic Frontiers combo, or 2 pairs of CJ Premier 8s (275W), for the Fullrange to good effect.

I have a DIY pair (by my friend) of 833A SET amp (around 50W), which I have tried on the mid/treble of the Duetta Sig. While the midrange was exceptionally good, the treble was somewhat recessed. This probably has more to do with the output transformer than the tube. As I understand, it is hard to get good treble out of such huge SET output transformers.

So, for something like the Fullrange, even if you drive the midrange and treble with different amps (meaning 3 ways active, including the bass), I would think you need at least 50W, so more power than the typical 845 or 211 SET can do. I suppose paralleling more of them can make the mark, but some may not consisder that pure SET anymore.

The only exception in the Apogee range is probably the Stages, which I thing 50W or so would be enough. But due to the smaller side, while having a very good midrange, cannot match the bigger brothers in terms of dynamic and bass extension.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes and there is this guy in Nottingam with CJ Premier 8s, Kondo pre, Kondo dac, CLO TLX, and SME. He has older Duetta Sigs, not as good as Justin's