Another should I add vinyl thread
- Thread starter JM1911
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That was precisely my calculus. I went with a single really good source, physical CD. I continue to be very happy with the choice I made.
Having a vinyl setup that would be equal in quality to my digital, let alone surpass it, would be prohibitively expensive. I put my money wisely into other parts of my system, and if my budget had been divided between two sources I could never have achieved the high quality sound that I am enjoying now from CD.
Recent experiences, even in direct shoot-outs where CD won, have again confirmed that it is very hard to achieve sound from streaming, "high-res" or not, that is as good or better than physical CD (with reclocker after the CD transport as I have, which lowers jitter). I am glad that I did not invest in that either, considering my budget.
The only simple tinker-free (and one-box) solution for streaming that I have heard which convinces me is from MSB. But that comes at a price I cannot afford within my budget. Rather I will be going with HRS platforms with next upgrades, optimizing my physical CD playback even further.
Sure, you can get "good" streaming for not that much money. I am absolutely not interested in that. I don't want "good" sound, I want great sound.
I'll limit my streaming to YouTube over headphones on my computer. That's fun enough.
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My system calculus might have been different had I already had a large vinyl collection. That was not the case.
Although I disagree that "Vinyl can sound better than digital" simply because the statement sounds nice but in its short form is essentially vague and misleading - IMHO it means we can prefer one of the formats playing in a particular system - I do not think that we must spend a lot to have excellent analog. Surely, if our target is the particular type of sound of some carefully and expertly designed colored vinyl systems, that are very enjoyable and extremely rewarding, we must spend a lot. But if we are realistic and use standard high quality tape as a reference we can get an extremely rewarding system for a reasonable amount of money. Just think that most top most analog of thirty years ago is extremely devaluated and still sounds great. I have been putting in service again an Oracle Delphi mk3 fitted with a Sumiko MDC800 tonearm and a vdH Black Beauty and it sounds great by any standards, although it will not please all preferences. But vinyl needs a lot of care, time and some expertise.
BTW, some tape issues can also be euphonic - the distortions due to some mechanical problems can sometimes show as spaciousness and a false fuller-body sound.
Please note that IMHO the high end is essentially a manipulative art - we pay a lot to have something extra over the sound of the typical "hifi" that sounds all the same.
The vinyl rig that you specify, Francisco, is (with some parts at second hand price) more or less comparable in cost to my digital rig. This is at a price that I am not willing to spend on a second source, and I personally would not bet that it will be as good as my very well optimized digital. And the price does not even consider the necessary great phono preamp.
For less than that price (without phono preamp) I performed a recent upgrade to great power cords that catapulted forward the sound of my CD playback in ways I could not imagine.
So yes, I firmly stick with my single-source philosophy.
You are correct and if I did not have a large LP collection and an high-end addiction I would probably stick just with single source digital. I use tape mostly as a reference and a time consuming technical hobby!
Nice to know that you enjoying the new power chords - I also have found that, as expected, digital playback is very sensitive to power cords. Due to EC regulations I can't experiment most US power equipment.
Tape as a reference and technical hobby is certainly valid, if you choose to invest in it. As far as single source digital goes, I'd be very happy with yours. Fantastic transport, too.
Interestingly, while better power cords are audibly important on the digital as well, in my system the single biggest difference that a better power cord makes -- also in terms of making the sound less "digital" -- is on the power amp.
This is exactly what I did. Two years ago I purchased a digital only system. As many here may recall, I thought I had arrived. I had a good analogue sounding DAC and the music was great. It was enjoyable. I now have a new digital system (EMM DAC + PRE + N30SA), which has been upgraded. It's awesome and still breaking in. I really like my digital! Yes, it sounds analogue!!!
We just moved a couple months back. All my friends in N FL have vinyl. This is essentially all they listen to. So, when I visited them during the last few months, I heard vinyl again and again and again. During this time I think I learned how to listen better. I wasn't really trying to, but it was just happening. I was being drawn more and more into the music. There was more emotion being set free in my soul when hearing vinyl. I began to realize what I was missing. I heard the differences more and more - and they weren't subtle.
I desired a TT before all this, but the visiting and listening to other's systems got me addicted. My TT will be delivered and setup on the 15th, 'if all goes as planned.' A TT pro is flying in to set it all up with my dealer... I was told to expect at least an 8 hour setup (J. Sikora Standard Max [183 lbs.], KV12 tonearms, Opus1, MSL SP carts).
Something else I've discovered in this exercise. I'm not really a classical music type person. I listened to some on streaming (N100H which is gone now), but it just didn't grip me. But with the differences I'm hearing with vinyl I'm actually somewhat drawn more to it. At a friend's home, I requested to hear classical album. That's not like me at all. I'm still going to listen to female vocals and soft rock for sure, but I never thought I would say that I enjoyed classical.
Warning: If you have a digital only system, don't visit friends that have a well set-up vinyl system. You're going to desire one!
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Not in my case. I hear well set up vinyl in friends' systems all the time. I love it, but it gives me no desire to switch to vinyl. As for emotional engagement, I got it all with my digital.
And yes, I listen to classical the most (even though I just spun a few great songs from Pink Floyd's Meddle).
And by the way, few streaming setups will give you the full capabilities of digital, soundwise and in terms of conveying emotion, even though apparently it can be done (I mentioned MSB with its internal Renderer, while I must admit I have not directly compared it with CD yet). I stick with my excellent replay of physical CD, for the time being.
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My digital is really good now. We ran tests with EMM DV2 v2 and the Select II and we choose the EMM Labs. We’re very satisfied. It conveys emotion, but not as much - at least right now (still breaking in) - as my friend‘s vinyl. I love CDs as well (EMM Transport). I actually still like them more than streaming, but that may change.
There‘s just something about vinyl that draws me more into the sound. Maybe it’s because I grew up with a father that had vinyl and tape? All my early listening was vinyl as well. Later I switched to CDs for convenience. Maybe it’s because the music I basically listen to was mastered for vinyl and not all this hi res stuff. It’s like the music was put together knowing all the strengths and weaknesses of vinyl and then Magic happens. On the other hand, it’s like the digital is making small changes in the music. Sorry, I’m so poor at explaining what I’m hearing, but IMO no mater how good digital is, the vinyl just sounds better. It seems more natural. More refined. More musical. More real. Of course this is just my opinion.
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Audire, Well, this is another "should I add vinyl" thread and it seems like you have come to a decision over time and with due deliberation. Congratulations on your pending analog source. Please keep us updated.
Many people seem satisfied with only one source but appreciate what both analog and digital have to offer. Some people even prefer one to the other, and still others chose to focus available resources on one to optimize it within their budgets. It's all good, and only the listener can decide what's best for hum.
I should refer that we have very different musical preferences. But I have to say that except in the 80' and 90's most of my memorable listening sessions at friends, demos and shows were with digital. In my system I say it depends on the recording.
Still my favorite Pink Floyd album. Perhaps because I was around seventeen when I started listening to it, I still prefer to listen to Meddle in the LP format - at that times we carried never ending discussions on what was the best Pink Floyd LP! (WBPFLP
) Handling the LP gatefold, descending the tonearm and having to turn the LP after about 25 minutes still has a meaning to me.
Yes, we have different listening tastes. That's great. And mine are in a flux right now. I probably need to experiment more in listening to unfamiliar pieces (a job for the streamer). I agree also that in many instances that it depends upon the recording. Some of the music I enjoy comes only in CD or streaming, so vinyl isn't even an option there. That's one reason why I'm attempting to maximize vinyl and digital (CDs and streaming). One of my favorite albums is by Sinne Eeg. It only comes in CD right now. The albums has "Windmills of Your Mind" on it - one of my all time favorites. And it sounds marvelous on CD, and streaming.
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I have a pretty substantial collection of CDs. They sit in their plastic cases patiently waiting for another opportunity. I don't know if that will ever happen or if any CD players will be available when it does. I made the choice to stick with playing records - it's a lifestyle choice as much anything else. If I were to buy a CD player today that would be the Neodio; I do have the last top Oppo in a box unopened.
I've paid zero attention to streaming. Classical is not a genre where one jumps around from track to track, the technology is still in a fairly high degree of flux, and I don't want my music to be held hostage by a streaming service. I've done enough computer tech in my life to learn that a constant stream of software updates is a pita and that manufacturers of things that run software control the lifespan of those things.
I'll suggest to consider SRA along with HRS if you prefer wood furniture to metal.
Are you assuming that tape users have a hearing problem??
I play also CD , some very high quality CD recordings s are very good sounding .
But i need my old school ML 360S DAC , not the meitner MA2 which is only a transport in my system.
With the meitner i lose interest and switch it off , i dont know why technically ,but it just happens
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Streaming and computer audio in general is plagued for me by a synthetic, plasticky sound quality. Sometimes this quality is brutally and painfully obvious, sometimes it is just a thin but still noticeable veil over the music, and only rarely does it seem to be completely absent (as I said, for example MSB with the internal DAC Renderer). I am so sensitive -- perhaps far more than many others -- to this plasticky sound quality by now that I can smell it from a mile away. Ok, I exaggerate. But my friends who are into streaming sometimes get mad at me or exasperated when I point out that computer audio tends to have those problems, and say I should go with the times...yeah, whatever. Maybe some very expensive upgrade some time far in the future; as I said I am just not interested in half-baked solutions of "good" sound quality that still have that synthetic, plasticky smell.
I totally understand David Karmeli who always complains about the sound of computer audio. Often the quality with it is so compromised that esoteric discussions about "high-res" vs Redbook files frankly become, in the context, very much secondary in importance.
CD playback is not necessarily perfect either due to the jitter problem. My transport is quite good, better than many others, but on its own the tone with it is slightly flat, with a somewhat truncated decay (comparatively speaking). That is because of remaining transport jitter. Yet with my reclocker (the excellent Empirical Audio Synchro-Mesh with Dynamo power supply) the tone gains depth and richness, and fine detail becomes more evident. Decay is more fully developed. A slightly metallic quality, e.g., on strings, that is audible with transport alone, fades away. I am sure that very high quality transports (e.g., Spectral or dCS Vivaldi, don't know about EMM) do not suffer from this jitter problem and don't need a reclocker. Then the DAC clock on its own, internal or external, will suffice.
Not even remotely the case. It’s the longest serving music medium at home and it’s here for a heck of long time more.
Thanks for the further explaination. It definitely helps me to learn.
Ed Meither of EMM doesn’t believe in external clocks. He’s rather direct about the topic. (Stereophile).
For Jitter Meitner states,
I don’t how he works all this out in his DACs and Transports, but they sound great.
PS: someone commented on the DA2 DAC. The DA2 v2 DAC is a completely different DAC in SQ and when mixed with the EMM PRE a delight to listen to. I can’t turn it off - 10 hours already today.
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EMM labs is superb. It uses an Esoteric based transport. On a shoot out with its own Dac for CD playback versus a Lampo Pacific streaming from an ultra high end computer the EMM just sounded more musical and ‘right’
then we switched to a direct comparison of EMM DAC versus Lampo using the EMM transport for CD as source, here the EMM labs (Dac) outperformed the Lampo.
(Three seasoned campaigners agreed on the 1st shoot out except one preferred a particular USB over another )
yup. Ed knows his stuff.
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