2X DSD streaming from my server thru the Playback Designs MPS-5......WOW!!!

[flez007]

I heard last week a PCM2 with a dedicated server and RR Hi-Rez material here at Xavier 's place, he also had the same recording in tape (ATR/BH Repro) and tape won, but for a very short margin!. I agree with Mike here - this is the future.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Of course we're going to ignore the fact that the tape has coloured the sound, both on record AND on replay ...

Frank

and that digital has missed some of it too. i'll take a bit of color along with completeness.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Of course we're going to ignore the fact that the tape has coloured the sound, both on record AND on replay ...

Frank

That has nothing to do with the experiment. It's like comparing an original 4x5 large format picture for a magazine cover with its scan. Either the scan recreates the original's colors (and it doesn't because one has to among other things, color correct), warts and all, or it doesn't. If a digital copy doesn't sound like the original tape, then it's not a 1:1 copy. It doesn't make any difference if the tape is good or awful sounding; the copy should sound identical; it shouldn't add or subtract from the original.

 

[Roysen]

Are the formats mentioned here (PCM2, DSD64 and DSD128) comercialy available and what kind of DAC is needed to decode to analog? This sounds very interesting and I would love to hear. From what I understand DSD256 and DSD512 also exist as formats although files are gigantic.

Thanks,
Roysen

 

[LL21]

Are the formats mentioned here (PCM2, DSD64 and DSD128) comercialy available and what kind of DAC is needed to decode to analog? This sounds very interesting and I would love to hear. From what I understand DSD256 and DSD512 also exist as formats although files are gigantic.

Thanks,
Roysen

+1...very interested to understand which DACs can play this level (besides the Playback Designs?). Presume one starts with SACD players....(which is DSD?)

 

[Roysen]

I just learned that the MSB Diamond DAC IV with the latest DSD firmware update plays DSD128 files through all its digital inputs.

Thanks,
Roysen

 

[Mike Lavigne]

+1...very interested to understand which DACs can play this level (besides the Playback Designs?). Presume one starts with SACD players....(which is DSD?)

SACD is the silver disc encoded with single dsd only, and most of those are hybrids meaning they also have redbook and multi-channel. all SACD's have dsd and require an SACD player to play the dsd layer.

what we are speaking about here is dsd (2.6million single bits per second) on your hard drive playing thru a dac. as far as acquiring dsd files (DSD64) for your server hard drive; there are a couple of ways to do that. you can rip SACD's from a Sony Playstation 3 with the right software.....google for info. or you can purchase dsd files on-line. they take less time to download than PCM 96/24 files. 2xdsd ('double-speed' dsd, or DSD128) is found from personal files you might have recorded off a KORG, or maybe you 'know someone'. it's important to know that depending on the unit used to record 'double-speed' dsd, regular dsd can sound better or as good. 2xdsd is not yet fully optimized as a commercial format......but it will be likely soon since this is the way things are going.....so this capability is important to have. as far as 4xdsd, or 6xdsd, or 8xdsd....stay tuned.

note; Bruce (or Amir) is a much better source of info on this subject than myself so take my explanation with a grain of salt.

 

[LL21]

I just learned that the MSB Diamond DAC IV with the latest DSD firmware update plays DSD128 files through all its digital inputs.

Thanks,
Roysen

good to know!

 

[LenWhite]

From my perspective the elephant in the room with high resolution audio downloads is material availability - it appears to be worse than SACD! I hope I'm wrong but the availability direction appears to be moving increasingly to low rather than high resolution audio.

 

[LL21]

From my perspective the elephant in the room with high resolution audio downloads is material availability - it appears to be worse than SACD! I hope I'm wrong but the availability direction appears to be moving increasingly to low rather than high resolution audio.

Len - i am with you. I follow this for long-term reference...and i do think it gets there someday. But near term, i grab every cheap CD off Amazon i want for 3 bucks each. And focus on creating the best 16/44 i can for now within a budget. And one trend i am starting to enjoy is the number of quite high quality remasters from Analogue Productions, FIM, Bob Ludwig, Doug Sax, Steve Hoffman, plus new stuff from MA Recordings, etc...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

From my perspective the elephant in the room with high resolution audio downloads is material availability - it appears to be worse than SACD! I hope I'm wrong but the availability direction appears to be moving increasingly to low rather than high resolution audio.

it's actually the opposite. in fact; the issue is that with downloads there is not ever an issue of 'material availability'......it's only a matter of time as labels/rights holders jump on the bandwagon.

Bruce is doing hirez remasters (PCM and dsd simultainiously) as fast as he can. whereas SACD's were propriatary and had hardware limitations and expensive drives, most better dacs going forward will be dsd capable, bandwidth and storage for media gets larger and cheaper monthly, and silver disc market delivery shrinks more every day.

i have 4000 CD's and 1000 SACD's.....and a good quality digital player (PD MPS-5).....but 75% of my digital listening is to my server.....and much of that is now dsd.

if i look at things from another perspective, that i had CD only and my collection was growing and i really enjoyed it, and i had not yet embraced server dac listening at all, i can respect why you view things the way you do. i can only recommend to keep your mind and ears open.

 

[mep]

It's hard for me to fathom why anyone who loves the digits wouldn't own a digital music server. I am anxiously awaiting a DAC that I can purchase at a real-world price that will playback DSD files via a USB input from a server. The only DAC I'm aware of at a decent price that can do this is the Mytek Stereo 192 which no one has in stock. I have a brand new external hard drive with over 100 DSD albums that I have yet to hear in my system. I am looking forward to this digital adventure.

It's almost scary how good of a digital front end you can get for hardly any dollars. I paid less than $350 for the Toshiba laptop I used to build Gary's music server. My Creative Labs E-MU 0404 DAC cost less than $200 and it kicks ass. There are still tons of new DACs on the market that can't take a 24/192 signal from a USB connection from your server. The 0404 was ahead of its time and it's already discontinued. The playback quality of this $550 dollar investment is mind-blowing when you think about it. It would take lots of analog dollars to buy into this level of sound quality. I just don't see the sense of a stand-alone CD player anymore. It's more archaic than playing LPs IMO.

 

[LenWhite]

it's actually the opposite. in fact; the issue is that with downloads there is not ever an issue of 'material availability'......it's only a matter of time as labels/rights holders jump on the bandwagon.

Bruce is doing hirez remasters (PCM and dsd simultainiously) as fast as he can. whereas SACD's were propriatary and had hardware limitations and expensive drives, most better dacs going forward will be dsd capable, bandwidth and storage for media gets larger and cheaper monthly, and silver disc market delivery shrinks more every day.

i have 4000 CD's and 1000 SACD's.....and a good quality digital player (PD MPS-5).....but 75% of my digital listening is to my server.....and much of that is now dsd.

if i look at things from another perspective, that i had CD only and my collection was growing and i really enjoyed it, and i had not yet embraced server dac listening at all, i can respect why you view things the way you do. i can only recommend to keep your mind and ears open.

Mike - I did say "I hope I'm wrong" and I will certainly keep my eyes and "ears" open. I would like nothing better than to be able to buy high resolution DSD music downloads if and when they become ubiquitous. In the meantime, I try to buy good quality SACD's, and RBCD's that allow me to listen to the music that strikes me emotionally. I've listened to some high resolution downloads through a friends laptop using J. River and even been able to compare a few SACD tracks - so far the discs sound better IMO. But I'm aware DSD quality downloads maybe a game changer - if enough music material becomes available commercially. Len

 

[wizard]

Are the formats mentioned here (PCM2, DSD64 and DSD128) comercialy available and what kind of DAC is needed to decode to analog? This sounds very interesting and I would love to hear. From what I understand DSD256 and DSD512 also exist as formats although files are gigantic.

Thanks,
Roysen

Yes DSD256 files are big - for example 7 min of music is 1.1GB.
24/352.8 files - 8 min of music - 970MB.

 

[wizard]

Interesting

From this thread at Pro-Sacd Forum

"I applied the "Making DSD256" method to CD-ripped sources. Korg AudioGate program was used for 44.1 kHz/16 bit PCM -> DSD128 conversion first and it was used again for DSD128 -> DSD256 conversion again.
My general impression on the resulting sounds from the last DSD256 sources is "far better than that of original PCM"."

 

[docvale]

From my perspective the elephant in the room with high resolution audio downloads is material availability - it appears to be worse than SACD! I hope I'm wrong but the availability direction appears to be moving increasingly to low rather than high resolution audio.

I listened to the MPS-5 during a demo and it sounded excellent to me.
IMHO, the average music lover, unless in the condition to re-build his entire music library with ex novo downloads, will mostly listen to redbook standard files (obtained from the rip of his collection and not new downloads). Notwithstanding, he will use a music server, because of the comfort of using a computer based system.
In the case of the MPS-5, we are speaking of a fantastic machine, which might be enjoyed playing every sort of currently available file.
So, people who might afford the MPS-5 and that are looking to buy a new digital machine could seriously consider the MPS-5 because of its flexibility.
OTOH, if not in the need to buy a new digital machine, my guess is that the average music lover might wait and see (listening to music, of course).

 

[FrantzM]

Interesting

From this thread at Pro-Sacd Forum

"I applied the "Making DSD256" method to CD-ripped sources. Korg AudioGate program was used for 44.1 kHz/16 bit PCM -> DSD128 conversion first and it was used again for DSD128 -> DSD256 conversion again.
My general impression on the resulting sounds from the last DSD256 sources is "far better than that of original PCM"."

I have some doubt about this statement ... The conversion from PCM to DSD of any sort is not error-free ... Wheter or not the differences are audible is a debate in itself. I do not believe however that a copy with error can "sound better" than the original ...

 

[Bruce B]

I have some doubt about this statement ... The conversion from PCM to DSD of any sort is not error-free ... Wheter or not the differences are audible is a debate in itself. I do not believe however that a copy with error can "sound better" than the original ...

The best PCM->DSD conversion I've heard is with the Pyramix apodizing filter. This is as close as you're going to get.

I agree that on a level playing field, the converted file will not sound better. I have heard it sound better on a couple of DACS...

 

[Robin Hood]

this is the future of state of the art digital playback, very near master tape performance from digital. don't confuse this with KORG 2X DSD; this is the real thing with an amazing master tape as the source mastered to 2X DSD optimally and played on a normal consumer machine and a normal server. up till now you had to have a pro studio to hear this.

Huh? What's the difference between Korg's DSD128 and what you are calling 2X DSD? I assumed that DSD128 is the same as 2X DSD, so why say don't confuse this with the Korg DSD? Or are you just saying that with better and much more expensive hardware than the Korg MR2000S, DSD128 will sound even better?

I have assumed the Korg MR2000S to be the real thing with an amazing master tape as the source mastered to DSD128 optimally and played on the Korg. Not that there isn't better or better isn't possible, but DSD128 on the Korg is significantly better digital than most audiophiles have ever heard.

 

[Bruce B]

Huh? What's the difference between Korg's DSD128 and what you are calling 2X DSD? I assumed that DSD128 is the same as 2X DSD, so why say don't confuse this with the Korg DSD? Or are you just saying that with better and much more expensive hardware than the Korg MR2000S, DSD128 will sound even better?.

DSD128fs is the same as 2x DSD. Korg does not have a monopoly on DSD128fs. DSD128fs/2xDSD sounds quite a bit better over the Playback Designs MPS-5