2014 - Big Move toward custom drivers? Are They Better? Will others be weeded out?

[caesar]

Seems like many in the audio media are starting to pound that speakers that use custom drivers as superior. Just read an account of a Magico site visit where the audio "journalist" in his write up of the visit was parroting Alon wolf about how Magico delivers extra value because they make their drivers in house. I believe Doug Fritz has always talked about this in his praise of Magico, and one of the members here, who owns a Magico Q1, wants to break apart some Wilson speakers to determine the cost of their parts...

But Magico aside, several high end companies make their own drivers. MBL has been making their own drivers in Germany since Alon Wolf was a teenager and those "audio journalists" were very young men. YG currently also makes them inside their factory. Focal has been making them for a very long time also, I believe. Kef seems to have a new unique driver.

My take on things is that it's all about taste. What else is new in this hobby? If you love a speaker, you buy into their engineering philosophy, and you use every argument and any detail to justify why it's the "best"- custom drivers, computer modeling, dispersion pattern, enclosure material, flexibility of setup, etc...(If you are an engineer, it's the reverse: you buy into the engineering philosophy, then fall in love with the speaker ).....Psychology studies clearly show that once we make up our mind and take a stand, we will encounter personal and interpersonal pressures to behave consistently with that stand we took...

So does someone have a complete list of companies that make their own drivers?

And more importantly do the customers find value in the custom drivers? Will bringing attention to this generate sales for the companies making custom drivers? Will every manufacturer eventually switch to custom drivers to be considered selling a "high end" product? Will others, who don't switch, be weeded out?

 

[es347]

I'm surprised that Magico actually makes them in house. Many of the speaker mfrs have "unique" drivers but are made elsewhere to their specifications..

 

[Robh3606]

And more importantly do the customers find value in the custom drivers? Will bringing attention to this generate sales for the companies making custom drivers? Will every manufacturer eventually switch to custom drivers to be considered selling a "high end" product? Will others, who don't switch, be weeded out?

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Hello caesar

For the most part you are purchasing a complete system. Unless you are a real tech-head like me I don't see the draw. I purchase drivers to make my own speakers. I consider the drivers parameters and how they are made much more than your average high end purchaser. Historically most manufacturers do not make their own drivers so I do not see many going that way. It's too damn expensive to tool up and requires quite a bit of R+D to do it properly. Much easier going to an OEM speaker manufacturer and either using off the shelf or have them do custom drivers to your specification.

JBL until a couple of years ago assembled the Synthesis Systems and drivers at Northridge. That got closed and moved to Mexico. They also have drivers made in China to their design.

Rob

 

[treitz3]

I know of a few companies that will take an existing design or product, tweak it to fit what they want. Then order it that way and call it a "custom" driver. It has been relayed to me that this is done to prevent people from building the same speaker DIY and to insure that all replacement parts [and associated profit] come from and profit back into the company and not another one.

Tom

 

[dallasjustice]

I thought magico only claims to "design" their drivers, not manufacture them.

 

[garylkoh]

I think that this thread will end up like a previous thread about where to start when you are designing a loudspeaker? The cabinet, the driver or the crossover. The answer is - it depends.

We use all custom drivers at Genesis. No one else makes a ring radiator tweeter, so we have made our own since day 1. When Chinese manufacturers started copying the original Genesis round ribbon, I re-designed it, improved it, and distributed the manufacturing so no one factory can copy it.

It isn't extremely expensive to make your own drivers. The last time I designed a driver was for the G7.2f. We paid about $6,000 (IIRC) for the tooling for a 5.5" titanium cone because of the profile I wanted and the material I specified. Basket tooling is expensive at about $20,000, but not critical to the performance, so I ended up using an available basket. I wanted a special voice-coil former so we had one made for us, but no tooling there. I ended up paying for tooling on the surround because I couldn't find one that I liked. Then, there's the spider design to consider. We also paid tooling on the dust-cap because there wasn't one I liked enough. From start to approved samples took about 9 months and about $25,000.

It's much easier to flip through the catalog of a transducer manufacturer like Scanspeak, Focal, etc. and picking one out.

Is a custom driver better? I don't think necessarily better. Some of the parts from the large transducer manufacturers have been refined for years by excellent engineers. Unfortunately, I could never toe the line and do what everyone else does..... so haven't had much luck buying a standard design. If I could have found one with the specs that I wanted, I would probably have used it. Saves a lot of time and money..... but with custom design, I could get exactly what I wanted.

 

[caesar]

I think that this thread will end up like a previous thread about where to start when you are designing a loudspeaker? The cabinet, the driver or the crossover. The answer is - it depends.

We use all custom drivers at Genesis. No one else makes a ring radiator tweeter, so we have made our own since day 1. When Chinese manufacturers started copying the original Genesis round ribbon, I re-designed it, improved it, and distributed the manufacturing so no one factory can copy it.

It isn't extremely expensive to make your own drivers. The last time I designed a driver was for the G7.2f. We paid about $6,000 (IIRC) for the tooling for a 5.5" titanium cone because of the profile I wanted and the material I specified. Basket tooling is expensive at about $20,000, but not critical to the performance, so I ended up using an available basket. I wanted a special voice-coil former so we had one made for us, but no tooling there. I ended up paying for tooling on the surround because I couldn't find one that I liked. Then, there's the spider design to consider. We also paid tooling on the dust-cap because there wasn't one I liked enough. From start to approved samples took about 9 months and about $25,000.

It's much easier to flip through the catalog of a transducer manufacturer like Scanspeak, Focal, etc. and picking one out.

Is a custom driver better? I don't think necessarily better. Some of the parts from the large transducer manufacturers have been refined for years by excellent engineers. Unfortunately, I could never toe the line and do what everyone else does..... so haven't had much luck buying a standard design. If I could have found one with the specs that I wanted, I would probably have used it. Saves a lot of time and money..... but with custom design, I could get exactly what I wanted.

Hi Gary,

I know you are biased, but how do you think your best speaker would sound if you could use the best available from a specialized driver manufacturer vs. your own custom driver?

PS. As a sucker for the "big sound", I unfortunately have not heard your latest "big" speakers, and am looking forward to hearing them one day.

 

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary,

I know you are biased, but how do you think your best speaker would sound if you could use the best available from a specialized driver manufacturer vs. your own custom driver?

PS. As a sucker for the "big sound", I unfortunately have not heard your latest "big" speakers, and am looking forward to hearing them one day.

I'm not as biased as you think. if I could find a standard driver that would work with my servo-control system, I would. It would probably cost less because I wouldn't have to keep thousands in stock - plus all the tooling and prototyping which have to be paid for. It's always a risk as there is no guarantee that despite all the design work done, the sample will measure or sound anything like I expect it to.

If I had to design using a specific driver from a specialized driver manufacturer, I probably could. How it would sound I can't even begin to speculate. To achieve the dispersion I want in the high frequencies, I would the Scanspeak Revelator. Otherwise, a 1/4" tweeter won't have the sensitivity.

But sometimes it is an iterative thing. That was why the G7.1f became the G7.2f within 3 years. I figured out something I wanted to improve upon with the drivers of the G7.1f, did it, and then reworked the crossovers to become the G7.2f.

 

[treitz3]

I'm a big fan of the Scanspeak Revalator. Nice choice Gary. You have now moved up a further notch on my respect scale. Please accept my apologies for interrupting the conversation.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Tom

 

[JackD201]

Yeah, Gary and I love Scanspeak Rs but love ribbons just that extra little bit more. Right Gary? LOL.

 

[garylkoh]

Yep. Just that tiny bit biased.

 

[Robh3606]

How many of you really give much thought to driver technology??

I am curious and making the assumption that most don't. Is that correct??

There are so many variables with speaker drivers from magnet types Alnico Ferrite Neo to underhung vs overhung coil and magnet geometry, different materials for the cones metals vs paper vs composite, edgewound coils vs round wire, rubber vs cloth vs foam for compliances, shorting rings, copper and silver plated pole pieces it just never ends.

Rob

 

[asiufy]

I'm surprised that Magico actually makes them in house. Many of the speaker mfrs have "unique" drivers but are made elsewhere to their specifications..

AFAIK, that's the case with Magico as well. But in their case, they're not simply modified, off the shelf parts, but entirely Magico-designed units, whose production is outsourced to a dedicated speaker manufacturer.

I don't think having custom drivers is inherently better. Focal is there to prove this. They make their drivers, and they're nothing special. A speaker is a sum of its parts.


alexandre

 

[danielk141]

My concern is not whether the drivers are custom made or off the shelf, but how long will replacements be available?
For example, the Magico M5 speaker. A $90K speaker readily available used for $25K in like new condition.
They should be a great buy at this price, but only IMO if Magico supports this speaker with replacement drivers, for years to come.
Wilson audio is a prime example of great driver support, ask anyone with the original Wamms. That NOS oval Kef driver is in stock, at Wilson.
If you need the Kef oval driver for a Sonus Faber Exrema, good luck finding it.

 

[garylkoh]

My concern is not whether the drivers are custom made or off the shelf, but how long will replacements be available?
For example, the Magico M5 speaker. A $90K speaker readily available used for $25K in like new condition.
They should be a great buy at this price, but only IMO if Magico supports this speaker with replacement drivers, for years to come.
Wilson audio is a prime example of great driver support, ask anyone with the original Wamms. That NOS oval Kef driver is in stock, at Wilson.
If you need the Kef oval driver for a Sonus Faber Exrema, good luck finding it.

Good point!

When I took over Genesis, some of the drivers were already long gone. Unfortunately, some of the old models had a particular titanium dome midrange that stuck out of the cabinet and were a magnet for stray elbows. There were so many requests for replacements that we had to re-manufacture it. Luckily the drawings and specifications was still available. Unfortunately, tooling had been lost. Cost a bit of money, but I think that I have enough drivers to last the lifetime of these owners. I won't probably break even on these drivers for quite a few more years because they sell in trickles......

For other old drivers, unfortunately, even the material that they are made of has been discontinued and hence it is impossible to even re-manufacture them.

With standard drivers from specialized driver manufacturers - when they get discontinued, you are even more stuck. If the loudspeaker manufacturer can't get the drivers, as owners you're even deeper in the hole. Sometimes a loudspeaker manufacturer might have to prematurely discontinue a model because they go to the specialized driver manufacturer to order some more drivers, and that driver has been discontinued.

If the loudspeaker is assembled in China - then they would be essentially be a disposable item unless the loudspeaker manufacturer also buys stocks of drivers to keep as replacements. The best way for a loudspeaker manufacturer would be to buy modified drivers from a specialist manufacture. There would be a minimum quantity in the thousands, and if they are a small manufacturer, they would have stocks of replacement drivers long after the model has been discontinued. Same if you design your own drivers as minimum quantities are in the thousands.

 

[Elberoth]

If you need the Kef oval driver for a Sonus Faber Exrema, good luck finding it.

Thankfully, any damage to that driver is very unlikely to happen. First of all, it is not a real 'driver', but a passive radiator. Which means it has no voice coil you could break due to excessive power. Second, the drive unit is protected by a metal plate, which limits the possible physical damage (and UV exposure to the surround as well).

But I get your point - getting the KEF B139 driver is almost impossible right now. Wilson had more luck with KEF B139 drivers that you could imagine. They were already out of those drive units at some point (as they had a certain customer in South America that used to consume them extremely fast - he turned out to listen to his WAMMs at PA levels) but luckily, there was a guy in Spain that called them one day, that had a reamining stock of those left - like a hundred or so - so Wilson bough all he got on the spot.

Now, with the WAMM owner from South America not causing problems anymore, they are covered for years to come. At least with the B139.

This is Trent from Wilson Audio holding the KEF B139:

 

[Elberoth]

I'm surprised that Magico actually makes them in house.

They do not. Those drive units make almost a round the globe trip before they are ready. Magico buys a carbon fibre fabric from an US supplier, sends it to Europe for cone forming, then back to US for applying the resin with nanotubes, then back to Europe to Kurt Muller (the company that makes spiders, surrounds and domes for many leading drive units manufacturers, including Scan Speak) to fit the spider, upper surround and voice coil, and then finally to Morel in Israel, who builds the baskets and magnet systems and also does the final assembly. Finished drive units are shipped back to states. Quite a trip !

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm tempted to create an automotive analogy, but i'll resist and just ask two very simple questions:

1) Is it possible for a (relatively) small high-end speaker manufacturer to design better drivers than a (relatively) large, world-class driver manufacturer like Scanspeak, with its deeper pockets, more experienced engineers focused on driver design?

I'll answer the first one - yes, it's possible.

2) How common, how probable do you suppose it is?

I'll let ya'll answer that one for yourselves, but I suppose that a lot more often than not, "exclusive, custom-designed drivers" are more about marketing than anything else.

Tim

 

[Elberoth]

More than that - I have once spoken with Lars Goller, who was a head engineer at Scan Speak at the time - and he told me that speaker manufacturers often ask for custom versions of the drive units, with mods that have absolutely no sense whatsoever from the technical point of view. He also told me that the standard versions of their drive units are as good as they know how to design.

Among those mods are those that do make sense - Wilson for example, was for many years ordering thir carbon loaded mid-woofers that were used in Maxx / WP 5 to 8 models, which had a shorter voice coil to up the sensivity (the penalty for this mod was that they didn't do low bass anymore, but that was no problem since they were used as midrange drivers anyway).

So it obviously varies manufacturer to manufacturer, but many of them order custm versions for the bragging rights more than anything else.

 

[microstrip]

Thankfully, any damage to that driver is very unlikely to happen. First of all, it is not a real 'driver', but a passive radiator. Which means it has no voice coil you could break due to excessive power. Second, the drive unit is protected by a metal plate, which limits the possible physical damage (and UV exposure to the surround as well). (...)

Adam,

Just to put it more clearly the B139 in the Extrema's has a voice coil and a magnet - it is a full drive, not the BD139 ABR unit used for example in the KEF 104 kit. The voice coil is not connected to power but just to a variable damping resistor.

And, I hope that I am not spoiling any one business, but the myth of the market unavailability of the B139 is exaggerated - this driver was manufactured in very large quantities in the UK, and it shows regularly there in the used market at nice prices. There is currently an excellent pair being sold at eBay UK at a buy-it-now price of GBP 150, although it is possible to get DIY speakers using them at less than this value, and even boxed units. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-B139-B139B-BASS-SPEAKERS-WOOFERS-SP1044-/161176622399?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item2586e0153f And sometimes even cheaper http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-KEF-B139-SP1044-Base-drive-units-Woofers-Pair-/171198868540?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item27dc3f6c3c&clk_rvr_id=567920136130