$100K Tables - TechDAS AF1 vs. Walker Proscenium? Which sounds more like real music?

[KeithR]

I don't have the vinyl knowledge to say which specific TT is better, but I would like to expand the discussion in light of hearing our own Gary Koh's opinion on analog playback and how an air bearing was by default, not optimal. After THE Show in Newport, he gave a very interesting lecture on the subject and it would be interesting to see which SOTA TT he would recommend. Albert Porter also agreed with him.

Also, I'm sure some of the TechDas/Walker owners could chip in on air bearing units vs others that they chose over and why. This seems like one of the larger debates in analog.

 

[rockitman]

I don't have the vinyl knowledge to say which specific TT is better, but I would like to expand the discussion in light of hearing our own Gary Koh's opinion on analog playback and how an air bearing was by default, not optimal. After THE Show in Newport, he gave a very interesting lecture on the subject and it would be interesting to see which SOTA TT he would recommend. Albert Porter also agreed with him.

Also, I'm sure some of the TechDas/Walker owners could chip in on air bearing units vs others that they chose over and why. This seems like one of the larger debates in analog.

I recall Gary saying the AF1 was the best sounding TT he's ever heard. As far as my decision ? the AF1 air implementation for vacuum and bearing is clearly superior to anything available, IMO.

 

[DEV]

I don't have the vinyl knowledge to say which specific TT is better

Nor can most - it's all debatable. One would need to own what ever product they are discussing like I have owned 3 other tables besides the AFO and was able to hear the differences - same would go with Christian and his CA Master and AFO along any other owners like Jack and his brother Jimmy for example because they both owned the same TW tables I have . In the end what I like others may differ - I'm not purchasing or trying to please anyone else.

After THE Show in Newport, he gave a very interesting lecture on the subject and it would be interesting to see which SOTA TT he would recommend. Albert Porter also agreed with him.

Lectures can be good but sometimes I have found self serving I always chuckle to myself when I read comments from individuals whom have financial interest of some sort or bias, it's really all subjective - the only way someone could possibly pinpoint down to the table it's self is that they own everything else in the system and confirm the cart set-up is identical "we all know that's next to impossible, something will be a little off"

Personally when I purchase a larger item apart of the evaluation includes looking at the company as a whole and it's history - experience - knowledge, the product it's self - fit and finish besides what the product has to offer sonic wise. Talking specifically about tables and looking at the construction - material used and fit and finish - sonic. With all that said the TechDas AFO is a WORLD TOP contender period.

I see many tables using cheap materials - some tables mentioned above fall into that category making me shack my head specially at their asking price.

TechDas is pushing the limits and anyone fortunate enough to own is very happy indeed

 

[garylkoh]

I don't have the vinyl knowledge to say which specific TT is better, but I would like to expand the discussion in light of hearing our own Gary Koh's opinion on analog playback and how an air bearing was by default, not optimal. After THE Show in Newport, he gave a very interesting lecture on the subject and it would be interesting to see which SOTA TT he would recommend. Albert Porter also agreed with him.

Also, I'm sure some of the TechDas/Walker owners could chip in on air bearing units vs others that they chose over and why. This seems like one of the larger debates in analog.

I recall Gary saying the AF1 was the best sounding TT he's ever heard. As far as my decision ? the AF1 air implementation for vacuum and bearing is clearly superior to anything available, IMO.

That was a fun session after the show at Newport in Steve's house. I tried to explore the physics, mechanics and engineering of turntable design (I am not a turntable designer - just that I've been thinking/exploring it ever since I modified my father's Lenco L75 when I was 10) and how it pertains to the state of the art. My conclusion (which many there agreed with) was that air bearing designs cannot be perfected because of the tolerances required by the air bearing. It would be easier to reach closer to perfection with a traditional bearing. However, bearings cannot approach that tolerance in the US without approval of the DOD.

Theoretically, my "perfect" turntable would be direct drive using a motor with an infinite number of poles (or at least 96 anyway) and infinite torque with a perfect bearing (tolerance in 3 dimensions at least within 0.02mil (0.5?) and a platter with zero weight. Nobody asked that question, so I didn't discuss it then.

I didn't know who Albert Porter was until I Googled him after that session - thus, I didn't understand why it was so important that he agreed with what I said. Steve McCormack was also there and he introduce Albert to me. Fascinating chap!

The best (In My Humble Preference) analog playback I've ever heard was the AF1 with the Vertere Reference Tonearm. Till today, that still holds true.

 

[caesar]

Retail price has nothing to do with it. Many manufacturers use ridiculous amounts of markup because people think that if it is more expensive, it must be better. Also, the large margins offered makes it very appealing for distributors. There are tables that I have heard that are 5k that sound better than others at the much higher prices.

I do not want to offend anyone who owns the TechDas, but between the two you mentioned, I greatly preferred the sound of the Walker. When setup properly, it is a very good sounding system.

Jonathan, regarding pricing that is certainly the case. Everyone understands that increasing the price makes the product more attractive to more people. It’s just the way the world works.

But as a successful guy in this extremely tough industry, you very well know that pricing is a tricky task since it is hard to judge quality of “experience goods” objectively. There is no quick and easy magic formula that one can “plug and chug” that will make the manufacturer, dealer, or distributor rich and the table owner proud and fully satisfied.


Sure, there are some less knowledgeable folks that would pay $20 for a $10 bottle of wine in Napa. But those folks are tourists passing by, not aficionados or experts. You wouldn’t be able to fool a vegetarian by taking him to Burger King, pulling out the beef patties from a Whopper, and telling him you are giving him a veggie burger. Likewise, if you would to ask knowledgeable analog folks, most would include these 2 tables as the cohort of the best. Stereophile Class A list has other excellent choices to satisfy other tastes and preferences.

No one is claiming that $100k is the “right price”. 2 of the best economists on Earth would not agree on what the “right” price should be for any product. Even if we took all the Nobel prize winners (and dug up all the dead Nobel laureates) and asked them to give us the price of IBM stock (or any stock), no one would agree. So the reality is that no one knows the “right” price. Furthermore, experts frequently disagree, so it’s a great idea to average out all of their opinions.


For those trying to sell something, running pricing experiments is the best thing they can do. But even then, it’s not a sure thing. That’s why it’s a good idea to experiment with pricing and to trust the individuals coming together in a free market.


And out of curiosity, since so many folks are looking for a good value, which $5K tables hit above their weight?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

And out of curiosity, since so many folks are looking for a good value, which $5K tables hit above their weight?

Yes, please do tell as I'm in the market for a new TT at roughly that price.

 

[BruceD]

Yes, please do tell as I'm in the market for a new TT at roughly that price.

Simon Yorke S9-- direct from Simon--around that figure

BruceD

 

[rockitman]

Yes, please do tell as I'm in the market for a new TT at roughly that price.

Clearaudio Ovation...$5K for table w/o arm. $6,500 with matched clearaudio arm.
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-58578-...rntable.aspx?gclid=CMjI2Pb1zcICFQNk7Aod62IAwA

 

[spiritofmusic]

Go REALLY left field. My Trans Fi Audio Salvation direct rim drive tt w/magnetic bearing and feet w/Trans Fi Audio Terminator T3Pro air bearing linear tracking tonearm, c$5-$7k (£2.5k). On a par w/the 5x pricier Grand Prix Monaco tt/Triplanar arm I heard recently.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, please do tell as I'm in the market for a new TT at roughly that price.

of the tt's i'm familiar with......I would choose either a Dobbins Garrard 301 or a Dobbins Technics SP-10 Mk2 as my favorite $5k tt's.

beautiful, sound great. they both are energetic and have that musical 'weight' that adds so much organic reality to the music.

I owned both and lived with them for an extended period. you can install any very very good tone arm on either and you will get the full value of the best arms and cartridges.

the hard part is finding someone who is selling theirs.

 

[PeterA]

of the tt's i'm familiar with......I would choose either a Dobbins Garrard 301 or a Dobbins Technics SP-10 Mk2 as my favorite $5k tt's.

beautiful, sound great. they both are energetic and have that musical 'weight' that adds so much organic reality to the music.

These are interesting choices assuming they can be serviced and parts are readily available. I'd put them up on a Vibraplane for isolation and then, yes, one would have a very good analog source, IMO.

It would be interesting to learn from jtinn which $5K tables are superior AND which "expensive" tables are inferior. But that might require private messaging.

 

[Mosin]

One of the best rooms at RMAF one year (I think 2009) was the deHavilland room. I remember it having a Wilson Benesh turntable because as a turntable manufacturer, I'm fairly aware of faults in a system that are caused by poor turntable design. I didn't hear anything particularly wrong with how the Wilson Benesh performed, and that surprised me. I had expected a lot less than it delivered.

If my memory serves me, the whole works including tonearm is somewhere in line with a 5K mid-line budget. My experience with it is all of ten minutes, but it's at least worth a look-see, in my opinion.

 

[DEV]

Guys lets get back on topic here, this thread is being unnecessarily hi-jacked - starting a new thread would be best

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's a struggle to hear what I class real world priced contenders side by side e.g. TW Acustic Black Knight, Brinkmann Balance, SME 30, Grand Prix Monaco, so what chance uber priced SOTA like the tt's in this thread? I suspect one is going to choose a tt on more than pure SQ terms i.e. design, materials use, design philosophy, street cred. And totally forget about comparing even two side by side.
In my case I am totally convinced of the superiority of the benefits of rim/idler/direct drive over belt drive (having heard and now owned my giant killing Trans Fi Salvation tt), trumping other engineering solutions like vacuum hold down etc. So my choice if I won the Lottery would be to look at Grand Prix Monaco, Dobbins Kodo The Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, Lumenwhite Mystere or Win Tinnon's most recent SOTA idler, the Saskia 2 Reference.

 

[PeterA]

Guys lets get back on topic here, this thread is being unnecessarily hi-jacked - starting a new thread would be best

Ok. I'll go on a limb, as did jtinn earlier up the thread, and answer the original question. In my limited experience, having heard both tables in vastly different systems, I conclude that the systems with the Walker turntables in them sounded "more like real music". There, back on the topic.

 

[DEV]

Ok. I'll go on a limb, as did jtinn earlier up the thread, and answer the original question. In my limited experience, having heard both tables in vastly different systems, I conclude that the systems with the Walker turntables in them sounded "more like real music". There, back on the topic.

That's fine but lacks credibility to me because I don't believe you have had both "possibly either" in your own system to properly evaluate - am I correct?

 

[DEV]

It's a struggle to hear what I class real world priced contenders side by side e.g. TW Acustic Black Knight, Brinkmann Balance, SME 30, Grand Prix Monaco, so what chance uber priced SOTA like the tt's in this thread? I suspect one is going to choose a tt on more than pure SQ terms i.e. design, materials use, design philosophy, street cred. And totally forget about comparing even two side by side.
In my case I am totally convinced of the superiority of the benefits of rim/idler/direct drive over belt drive (having heard and now owned my giant killing Trans Fi Salvation tt), trumping other engineering solutions like vacuum hold down etc. So my choice if I won the Lottery would be to look at Grand Prix Monaco, Dobbins Kodo The Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, Lumenwhite Mystere or Win Tinnon's most recent SOTA idler, the Saskia 2 Reference.

What does this posting or your one prior have to do with contributing to the actual thread; $100K Tables - TechDAS AF1 vs. Walker Proscenium? Which sounds more like real music?

Have you ever had either of these tables in your own system to evaluate?

 

[PeterA]

That's fine but lacks credibility to me because I don't believe you have had both "possibly either" in your own system to properly evaluate - am I correct?

I mean just what I wrote. I've heard both turntables in completely different systems. The Walker three times, the TD once. None were in my system. I did not write which table sounded more like real music but which system sounded more like real music. You can assign credibility as you wish.

You asked to get back on topic, so I gave you my opinion and explained clearly that my experience with these tables was limited. If only those who have owned or properly evaluated components in their own system were allowed to comment, then there would not be much to read. Check out the thread about four tonearms: Schroder LT, Kuzma 4pt, Graham Elite and SME V-12. It's not even clear if those who voted in the poll have done the "proper evaluation" that you suggest.

 

[DEV]

I mean just what I wrote. I've heard both turntables in completely different systems. The Walker three times, the TD once. None were in my system. You can assign credibility as you wish.

That's okay I have

You asked to get back on topic, so I gave you my opinion and explained clearly that my experience with these tables was limited. If only those who have owned or properly evaluated components in their own system were allowed to comment, then there would not be much to read. Check out the thread about four tonearms: Schroder LT, Kuzma 4pt, Graham Elite and SME V-12. It's not even clear if those who voted in the poll have done the "proper evaluation" that you suggest.

Ya I agree it's so easy for individuals to just push those keys and say this and that, you said "If only those who have owned or properly evaluated components in their own system were allowed to comment, then there would not be much to read.", why I personally limit my comments to product I have only had in my own system - reading numerous comments leaves me scratching my head in amazement - so much hot air - BS

 

[PeterA]

That's okay I have



Ya I agree it's so easy for individuals to just push those keys and say this and that, you said "If only those who have owned or properly evaluated components in their own system were allowed to comment, then there would not be much to read.", why I personally limit my comments to product I have only had in my own system - reading numerous comments leaves me scratching my head in amazement - so much hot air - BS

DEV, you should also note that I did not indicate which table is better, or even which table I prefer. I simply wrote that the systems in which the Walkers were used sounded more like real music to me.

There is another interesting discussion, though I can't remember if it is in this thread or another one, where the question is which component is better, the one that adds less to the signal or the one that sounds more like music with both good and bad recordings.

Looking at it in those terms, perhaps the TechDas is more transparent and true to the source, while the Walker adds colorations that to the listener sound more like music. Or visa versa. In the end, the only person qualified to answer the original question about which turntable sounds more like music is the person who has directly compared the two tables side by side in the same system. You are pretty lucky if you have had that opportunity. Is there anyone on this forum who has done that. Of course the captive arm on the Walker adds a complication to that analysis.